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samzhere
BannedPosts: 10,923 Senior Member
Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
Clothing catching fire when some is shot -- real or fiction?
samzhere
BannedPosts: 10,923 Senior Member
My dad was an, er, "special deputy" back in Kentucky during the late 20s and early 30s, he and his brother were often hired to help the town marshal during rough times when facing bootleggers and such.
When I was a kid, I remember Dad telling me, "When you shoot a guy at close range with a heavy caliber (Dad carried a 1911), sometimes his shirt catches on fire in a little ring around the bullet hole."
Naturally, I figured the old man was blowing steam but as the years went on, I found more and more evidence that Dad's "adventures in posse shooting" were all quite true.
But a shirt catching fire? I'd never heard or seen it until in the Kevin Costner movie "Wyatt Earp", the old sheriff is shot by Ike Clanton and his shirt catches fire briefly around the wound.
Anybody know about this, when could it happen. Mostly black powder I'd guess, rarely with modern propellant, but Dad was certainly shooting standard 230gr smokeless in 1928.
Info? Thanks...
When I was a kid, I remember Dad telling me, "When you shoot a guy at close range with a heavy caliber (Dad carried a 1911), sometimes his shirt catches on fire in a little ring around the bullet hole."
Naturally, I figured the old man was blowing steam but as the years went on, I found more and more evidence that Dad's "adventures in posse shooting" were all quite true.
But a shirt catching fire? I'd never heard or seen it until in the Kevin Costner movie "Wyatt Earp", the old sheriff is shot by Ike Clanton and his shirt catches fire briefly around the wound.
Anybody know about this, when could it happen. Mostly black powder I'd guess, rarely with modern propellant, but Dad was certainly shooting standard 230gr smokeless in 1928.
Info? Thanks...
Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
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Replies
-Mikhail Kalashnikov
[Mythbuster]Am I missing an eyebrow?[/Mythbuster]
Multiple times.
No shirt aflame, but I think there were powder burns, some stippling, and possibly some jacket material that worked its way into said person's belly.
With a 1911 and a 30-06
Now if you want to make this happen, even if the senareo is not realistic, I'm sure something like a dragon's breath round would more than do the trick.
For sure.
I've dang near ignited raccoons fur a few times with a .22....smoking pretty good
There, their, they're...
Actually, I believe you are thinking of when the young town marshal, Ed Masterson got shot at point blank range, outside the saloon. Not that it matters in this discussion.
I don't know about "Wyatt Earp" as I haven't been able to stomach the whole movie. But as Bisley said, it's really more academic than relevant to this discussion.
I know, there are all sorts of possible tests and situations that could be set up, but I'm mostly interested in any historic anecdotes anyone knows of that relate to this.
So the facts as I have 'em are, assuming my dad was being truthful -- and all his other stories of his rough life at that time I've verified:
Anyone got any more ideas, please bring 'em. And thanks for the commentary!
Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
With a 1911 and a 30-06
[h=4](4) Ford County Globe (10th April, 1878)[/h]
Wagner shot Marshal Masterson at once through the abdomen, being so close to him that the discharge set the Marshal's clothes on fire. Marshal Masterson then shot Wagner.
About this time a man named Walker got mixed up in the fight. He, it appears, was boss herder for Obum, and Wagner was working under him. He also got shot once through the left lung, and his right arm was twice broken.
Marshal Masterson walked across the street to George M. Hoover's saloon, where after telling that he was shot, he sank to the floor. He was immediately removed to his room, where in half an hour he expired.
Walker and Wagner were nearly all night insensible, and none thought that either of them could live through the night. However, morning has come and neither are dead; both are in a very precarious condition and their chances for recovery very small.
The city is in mourning; every door is draped with crape; business is entirely suspended till after the funeral of Marshal Masterson, which will take place at two o'clock p. m., and will be attended by everybody in the city.
Marshal Masterson will be buried in the Military Cemetery, at Fort Dodge.
Uhhh... in the closing of the fiction book "My Brother Sam is Dead" when the soldiers execute Sam Meeker, they are so close that the brown Bess rifles catch his clothes on fire.
That's all I got.
-Mikhail Kalashnikov
Black Powder.
That was because the subject in question refused to soak his shirt in gasoline....
No, sorry, the shirt fire was definitely from the movie Wyatt Earp. I watched it recently on cable and remember the scene. And I've got the Tombstone DVD and we also saw it last week.
If the fire had been accidental resulting from a misfired blank (ala Crow) I don't think it would have ended up in the movie. The way Earp (Kostner) steps up and pats out the little fire is fairly dramatic.
Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
I'm just still wondering where my Dad came up with the story. In all honesty, he wasn't one to invent stories and he was unlikely to tell me this if he'd not seen it personally. Whether he himself was involved in the shooting, I don't know.
Maybe it was a tall tale after all. It's just that I've verified all his other stories as authentic. Oh well, maybe we'll never know.
My only thought is that during the 20s, especially for backwoods places like deep rural Kentucky, some people weren't using modern smokeless powder or maybe were reloading with some cheap brand that was a mixture, since as bream says, black powder seems to be the factor. I dunno.
So thanks again, guys.
Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
Like so many things in shooting, there's a whole lotta variables involved.
A GI .45 hardball load is filled with about five grains of fast burning Bullseye. Not a lot of flash duration, but there is flash.
If you start playing with Elmer Keith's favorite - .357's and .44's full of 2400 - you can bet your stylishy sinister semi-wadcutters there's going to be substantial flash.
What's the shirt made of?
How fast is bleeding going to extinguish the smoulder/blaze?
"Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
Earp was in Fort Sumner New Mexico chasing Dave Rudabaugh....the guy patting out the flames was Ed's brother, Bat.... Earp didn't get back to Dodge City until after Masterson was buried...
Well, last to first, the shirt fire was immediate and Dad said it usually just sort of a flash and quick flicker of flames. And as for bleeding, unless a big blood vessel is hit, the bleeding won't be all that much out of the wound, instead mostly internal.
Shirts I'd assume were cotton.
This was in the late 20s and early 30s, and I checked on introduction of various cartridges... .357 (designed by Elmer Keith, 1934. .44 Mag, the 1950s, but the 44 special, 1907. So the cartridges in question were likely the .45acp, .44 spl, .38, or just maybe the .357.
But the caliber isn't that significant as the propellant, I'm thinking. And although "modern" smokeless was prevalent in the 20s and 30s, there were likely plenty of backwoods people who were reloading using "home brew" mixtures, some of which may have contained black powder or similar stuff that might flame on contact in an incomplete burn.
Whatever the guns or the rounds, I'm pretty sure it wasn't something exotic but instead ammo that was commonly available during that era, the roaring 20s.
As for black power used in quantity starting fires, I'm pretty sure this happened but the time period I'm talking about was about 1925-1935, so any 19th century accounts are not applicable, including the Wyatt Earp story.
I dunno.
And oh, just for some sidebar comments, another thing Dad told me was "When you shoot somebody at close range with a heavy caliber, dust jumps out of their chest about 3 or 4 inches like a little spout." And he'd indicate the distance with his hand. "Actually, it's not dust, it's vaporized blood and body tissue." Anyone want to deal with that one?
As I said, Dad had been involved in quite a few gunfights, he and his brother working as deputies for this city marshal in the deep mountainous areas of eastern Kentucky, "...where they have all the killins..." as I was told by a 93-year old lady who grew up there. Bootlegging and gambling were rampant there. Nowdays it's still moonshine plus weed and "cowboy coke" (meth).
Anyway. Good feedback, Big, and thanks.
Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
You remember the little dust up we had here about entry wounds that have organs, fat/tissue hanging out? It happens....
Close/contact shots most always result in the firearm/shooter being showered with blood droplets, bone chips and bits of tissue.