Colion Nior..... For the first time I disagree!

jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior MemberPosts: 9,599 Senior Member

Open carry at Starbucks will bring more fence sitters to the anti-concealed carry side.
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
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Replies

  • 5280 shooter II5280 shooter II Senior Member Posts: 3,923 Senior Member
    I'm not seeing your disagreement, he makes a good albeit ambiguous point. Open carry has become touchy because some people took their statement too far. Open carry a pistol on your hip, I agree with it. Running around with a rifle on your shoulder to get a cup of coffee, I don't agree with it.......keep it in your car.......this isn't Israel.......yet. Skydiving naked is not illegal, but it's not a prudent thing to do.

    Starbucks is just protecting their business......carry if legal, but don't flaunt it to make a political statement and force us to make a stance, because it'll be too easy to say no to all.
    God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,503 Senior Member
    No time to watch the video (lunch break), but I have to agree with 5280....Starbuck's didn't want to take a position one way or the other. Live and let live, so to speak. Some folks over-played the 'pro 2A' stance that Starbuck's seemed to be taking when in fact, the company leans enough to the left to make any pro 2A stance out of character to say the least. They merely wanted to avoid the subject altogether.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,648 Senior Member
    coolgunguy wrote: »
    No time to watch the video (lunch break), but I have to agree with 5280....Starbuck's didn't want to take a position one way or the other. Live and let live, so to speak. Some folks over-played the 'pro 2A' stance that Starbuck's seemed to be taking when in fact, the company leans enough to the left to make any pro 2A stance out of character to say the least. They merely wanted to avoid the subject altogether.
    As many businesses they want to sell their product to everyone. I can't blame them. Open carry of rifles or shotguns is not a very good idea in a urban environment. It scares people who may be "sitting on the fence." concerning 2nd amendment rights. Concealed carry or open carry of a holstered pistol in Starbucks should not be a problem.
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,599 Senior Member
    He says SB's came out of the anti gun closet, because they didn't specifically define between open carry and concealed carry in their open letter. The CEO of SB's isn't a 'gun' person. His first attempt at being neutral brought big reprecussions to his business.


    Letter seems clear to me. If your gun is concealed, no one knows you brought one into the store. At least there aren't ghostbuster signs on the doors. Most stores would have put them up....
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • 5280 shooter II5280 shooter II Senior Member Posts: 3,923 Senior Member
    The way I understand the video and Snake's links on the other SB thread......they took a neutral stance and are now saying "don't bring guns on our property"........I take this to mean flagrant open carry since of the repercussions it has caused......but like you said, no ghostbuster's sign saying no to all, and if you're carrying concealed, then nobody is none the wiser.

    Like I said before......it you are dressed and carry yourself respectfully, then you may be considered a person within a Liberal's reason as a person with a need to carry in the open.........it's not just about our rights......it's a matter of perspective and WE have the power to influence that. Joe Cappucino doesn't know if I'm a repo-man or an officer of the court serving papers, or maybe I'm an armored guard. But if I'm dressed in flip-flops and a wife-beater shirt, it's not so convincing.

    Colion should create a video about how if you carry, you should read Sun Tsu's Art of War, cause if you carry, then you are willing to engage in combat. The art of deception is just one chapter amongst many.
    God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,205 Senior Member
    Never saw the need to carry my AR into a store....rampant stupidity....I know they are trying to make a point.....but it's still stupid...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,830 Senior Member
    I'm not seeing your disagreement, he makes a good albeit ambiguous point. Open carry has become touchy because some people took their statement too far. Open carry a pistol on your hip, I agree with it. Running around with a rifle on your shoulder to get a cup of coffee, I don't agree with it.......keep it in your car.......this isn't Israel.......yet. Skydiving naked is not illegal, but it's not a prudent thing to do.

    Starbucks is just protecting their business......carry if legal, but don't flaunt it to make a political statement and force us to make a stance, because it'll be too easy to say no to all.

    Either we have a right or we don't. I do not see how someone can flaunt exercising a civil right. Forcing gun owners to hide like we have some dirty secret is no different than forcing blacks to ride on the back of the bus. This line of thinking that we must submit to ease other people's hoplophobia has got to stop, especially in the 2A community. As a group, we have settled for "keeping arms" and compromised away the "bearing" part.

    Keep in mind, in 46 states, concealed carry is not a right, it is a taxed privilege. Fingerprints and background checks...that's how criminals are treated.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Much ado about nuttin'... Starbucks has been sympathetic to 2A and has tried to do this without any real hoopla. After all, they are a private business and how they run their business is THEIR decision. If you don't like it, don't go there. It's that simple.

    This issue has come to light because Starbucks has also not prohibited open carry, and that has led some pro-2A jerks (we've got 'em on our side, too, folks) decided to use Starbucks to make protests by carrying ARs and other long guns in a demonstration. That's not only stupid, it's a ratty way to use someone else's property, someone else's private business, as your protest grounds.

    If you're staging a pro-2A or pro open carry demonstration, do so at the state capital or city hall or elsewhere public. Don't "invade" a private business to use as your camp grounds. Instead, let some gun store be your host for the demonstration. Those who used Starbucks were infringing on what has been an apparent good will by their ownership to allow carry in the stores. It's just plain rude.

    Concealed carry? Nobody knows, per the normal rule of "concealed", duh. Starbucks could have put up no-weapon signs but chose to not, trying to accommodate the CCW folks. And they even tolerated the open carry folks. But some jerkazoids decided to push the issue by turning normal open carry into a protest demonstration. I actually don't blame the Starbucks management for now asking for some reasonable balance.

    Bottom line, it's a private business. We all value private business rights, huh? If you don't much care for the rules they set, take your bidnezz elsewhere, and tell 'em why.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,351 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    I do not see how someone can flaunt exercising a civil right.
    Some race hate protests and the Westboro Baptists come to mind.
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,830 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    After all, they are a private business and how they run their business is THEIR decision. If you don't like it, don't go there. It's that simple.

    I can't have a business that forbids blacks, gays, Muslims, etc. What's the difference?
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,830 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Some race hate protests and the Westboro Baptists come to mind.

    You say flaunt, I say exercising.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • 5280 shooter II5280 shooter II Senior Member Posts: 3,923 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    Either we have a right or we don't. I do not see how someone can flaunt exercising a civil right. Forcing gun owners to hide like we have some dirty secret is no different than forcing blacks to ride on the back of the bus.

    You're kidding, right!? Do you know about this word called Discretion?
    God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
  • TrueTone911TrueTone911 Senior Member Posts: 6,081 Senior Member
    I believe you can have the right to do something AND exercise that right in an impractical manner.
    Oppressors can tyrannize only when they achieve a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace.  ~ James Madison
  • QuinianQuinian Senior Member Posts: 707 Senior Member
    While I don't see a NEED to carry a long gun around, I also don't see the problem with it. The 2A says right to bear arms, not right to keep it hidden so you don't offend somebody.

    Long guns aside, as far as OC/CC, CC like Cali said is how criminals are treated. I have several friends who OC their pistols because they don't feel like they should have to get a state permission slip to carry. Starbucks clearly said don't bring them in. That's anti-gun if you ask me.
  • 5280 shooter II5280 shooter II Senior Member Posts: 3,923 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    Fingerprints and background checks...that's how criminals are treated.

    Then I guess EVERY member of our armed forces are treated like criminals then yah? EVERY police officer and Fireman is treated like a criminal yah? EVERY personnel working in a bank or data security.....armored guards etc are treated like criminals yah?
    God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    I believe you can have the right to do something AND exercise that right in an impractical manner.

    That says it succinctly and perfectly!

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • 5280 shooter II5280 shooter II Senior Member Posts: 3,923 Senior Member
    I believe you can have the right to do something AND exercise that right in an impractical manner.

    You also have to right to run your mouth and get punched in the face for it. That's a civil dispute, not a Constitutional one......doesn't mean either side was right.

    I don't see Starbucks as anti-gun, just asking you to have respect for others.
    God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Quinian wrote: »
    While I don't see a NEED to carry a long gun around, I also don't see the problem with it. The 2A says right to bear arms, not right to keep it hidden so you don't offend somebody.

    Long guns aside, as far as OC/CC, CC like Cali said is how criminals are treated. I have several friends who OC their pistols because they don't feel like they should have to get a state permission slip to carry. Starbucks clearly said don't bring them in. That's anti-gun if you ask me.

    How to deal with this: Don't go to Starbucks.

    I also think you're missing the point... if you don't feel the need to carry a long gun around, why then do so? If not to "show off", then why, assuming it's not really needed?

    It's also my constitutional right for free speech, but I don't also stand on street corners and loudly proclaim my beliefs to passersby, either. Having a right doesn't necessarily mean you need to constantly exercise that right.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,664 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    Never saw the need to carry my AR into a store....rampant stupidity....I know they are trying to make a point.....but it's still stupid...

    Agreed.
    Open carry does more harm to the cause then good.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • TrueTone911TrueTone911 Senior Member Posts: 6,081 Senior Member
    You also have to right to run your mouth and get punched in the face for it. That's a civil dispute, not a Constitutional one......doesn't mean either side was right.

    Exactly
    Oppressors can tyrannize only when they achieve a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace.  ~ James Madison
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,503 Senior Member
    I believe you can have the right to do something AND exercise that right in an impractical manner.

    I'll go with that. A local radio host often says: "Having the right to do something doesn't always make it the right thing to do." I believe the 2nd Amendment outlines our inalienable right to bear arms as we choose. In fact, the wording of same is pretty easy to understand..."shall not be infringed". That said, I have the right (if not the financial ability) to buy whatever incredibly overpriced supercar I choose, but to drive that car at it's full capability just about anywhere that is not an actual racetrack would be an irresponsible application of that right. Did the folks carrying EBRs and such into Starbuck's have the right? Most likely, but I feel that doing so was irresponsible.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,185 Senior Member
    I see the Starbucks thing as nothing more than a property rights thing. They had a policy of following the laws of the state as to CCW/OC and said so. The OC crowd took this as a green light to make rectum clowns of themselves and disrupt the business, and the bottom line, of the business. Drunk and disorderly patrons are frequently ejected from bars for rude behavior. OC patrons were ejected from Starbucks for much the same reason. It's not that the OCers were breaking the law; it's the sad fact that they behaved like a bunch of spoiled little jerks and fouled the well for all. I'm tired of all of this selfish me, me, ME crap! Look at ME! I'm open carrying! Don't want to get hassled open carrying, there is one rule that is simple and will work most of the time. Don't act like a privileged jerk waving your willie in everyone's face and you won't get treated like one.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • Mike WeberMike Weber Member Posts: 91 Member
    I see the Starbucks thing as nothing more than a property rights thing. They had a policy of following the laws of the state as to CCW/OC and said so. The OC crowd took this as a green light to make rectum clowns of themselves and disrupt the business, and the bottom line, of the business. Drunk and disorderly patrons are frequently ejected from bars for rude behavior. OC patrons were ejected from Starbucks for much the same reason. It's not that the OCers were breaking the law; it's the sad fact that they behaved like a bunch of spoiled little jerks and fouled the well for all. I'm tired of all of this selfish me, me, ME crap! Look at ME! I'm open carrying! Don't want to get hassled open carrying, there is one rule that is simple and will work most of the time. Don't act like a privileged jerk waving your willie in everyone's face and you won't get treated like one.
    Bingo! Thats exactly what was happening and this sort of behavior caused changes in policy regarding open carry not just at Starbucks but at many other businesses that had been neutral or even more on the progun side of the issue.
  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,246 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    I see the Starbucks thing as nothing more than a property rights thing. They had a policy of following the laws of the state as to CCW/OC and said so. The OC crowd took this as a green light to make rectum clowns of themselves and disrupt the business, and the bottom line, of the business. Drunk and disorderly patrons are frequently ejected from bars for rude behavior. OC patrons were ejected from Starbucks for much the same reason. It's not that the OCers were breaking the law; it's the sad fact that they behaved like a bunch of spoiled little jerks and fouled the well for all. I'm tired of all of this selfish me, me, ME crap! Look at ME! I'm open carrying! Don't want to get hassled open carrying, there is one rule that is simple and will work most of the time. Don't act like a privileged jerk waving your willie in everyone's face and you won't get treated like one.

    :that: Great way of turning folks against us IMO.
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,830 Senior Member
    Then I guess EVERY member of our armed forces are treated like criminals then yah? EVERY police officer and Fireman is treated like a criminal yah? EVERY personnel working in a bank or data security.....armored guards etc are treated like criminals yah?

    NONE of your examples are guaranteed RIGHTS. You are confusing CHOICES with CIVIL RIGHTS.

    You don't get fingerprinted to vote, go to church, or speak your mind do you?
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,830 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    I see the Starbucks thing as nothing more than a property rights thing.

    Property rights do not let you discriminate against blacks, gays, Muslims, etc. I ask again, what is the difference?
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,830 Senior Member
    :that: Great way of turning folks against us IMO.

    Good thing Rosa Parks didn't think this way...
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 7,099 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    Property rights do not let you discriminate against blacks, gays, Muslims, etc. I ask again, what is the difference?

    Gotta say, Cali has a point here, and I also have to agree with the sentiment "Why do we have to hide the fact that we're gun owners like we have leprosy?"

    No doubt, the OC crowd has it's fair share of buttheads, but they have a fair point - why should a weapon visibly on someone's person, just hanging on a hip or over a shoulder, be a cause for alarm? IOW - remember when people openly packed guns and nobody cared?
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • QuinianQuinian Senior Member Posts: 707 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    How to deal with this: Don't go to Starbucks.

    I also think you're missing the point... if you don't feel the need to carry a long gun around, why then do so? If not to "show off", then why, assuming it's not really needed?

    Why would I even if a long gun isn't really needed? What if I just prefer it? Maybe I'm too broke to afford a nice pistol but I can ol Joes advice and grab a shotgun for 100 bucks. Maybe I'm on my way out of town to go hunting and my door locks are broken... There are endless reasons why you could or would.

    My point was, no matter what people think of it, the second says right to bear arms. We shouldn't have to CC or be forced to only carry pistols. If for whatever reason someone just simply WANTS to carry a long gun, they can.
  • 5280 shooter II5280 shooter II Senior Member Posts: 3,923 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    NONE of your examples are guaranteed RIGHTS. You are confusing CHOICES with CIVIL RIGHTS.

    You don't get fingerprinted to vote, go to church, or speak your mind do you?

    So what are you saying, that these people choose to give up their rights because of their chosen professions? Are they not citizens too? You portrayed that getting printed with a background check was a bad thing on par with being treated like a criminal.......and I cited examples of people who have to endure said procedures.

    I say the state that's entrusted you to carry amongst it's citizens has a right to ensure that they're not giving permission to carry in a municipality to a person with a criminal record. Hence there are checks for that.

    Voting or going to church or speaking your mind does not have the mechanical ability to take another's life......carrying a firearm does. It's a right, but entails responsibility and consequences.

    I open carry when I'm transporting other firearms so I can defend my possibly lethal property against theft, and when I'm hunting. I have no criminal record and I'm not ashamed to get finger printed again.
    God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
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