Colion Nior..... For the first time I disagree!

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Replies

  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Quinian wrote: »
    Why would I even if a long gun isn't really needed? What if I just prefer it? Maybe I'm too broke to afford a nice pistol but I can ol Joes advice and grab a shotgun for 100 bucks. Maybe I'm on my way out of town to go hunting and my door locks are broken... There are endless reasons why you could or would.

    My point was, no matter what people think of it, the second says right to bear arms. We shouldn't have to CC or be forced to only carry pistols. If for whatever reason someone just simply WANTS to carry a long gun, they can.

    EXCEPT on private property where the owner says no. First, get your door locks fixed, then avoid pricey places like Starbucks in the first place. Brew your coffee at home and don't waste the gas or whatever on hunting till you can get your truck door locks repaired.

    The point however is NOT whether you can bear arms but whether you can do so on someone else's private property if the owner doesn't want you to.

    Starbucks has remained gun-friendly in the past by allowing open carry when many other businesses won't allow it, and now the CEO is simply asking that open carry be not done and has however stopped at putting up the "no gun" signs.

    When's the last time, by the way, you carried an old shotgun into Starbucks? Just wondering. Do you normally open carry a long gun around with you and take it into work or the Walmart or Kroger or other places, too?

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,548 Senior Member
    So what are you saying, that these people choose to give up their rights because of their chosen professions? Are they not citizens too? You portrayed that getting printed with a background check was a bad thing on par with being treated like a criminal.......and I cited examples of people who have to endure said procedures.

    Everyone of us has to sacrifice rights for our chosen professions...professions are choices, not civil rights that are supposed to exempt from government intrusion.
    I say the state that's entrusted you to carry amongst it's citizens has a right to ensure that they're not giving permission to carry in a municipality to a person with a criminal record. Hence there are checks for that.

    I can and do open carry without the state's permission, so what's the difference? I'm just as dangerous...
    Voting or going to church or speaking your mind does not have the mechanical ability to take another's life......carrying a firearm does. It's a right, but entails responsibility and consequences.

    Possessing hands and feet means you have the mechanical ability to take another's life. Sure rights require responsibilities and consequences...but not limitations until said rights are abused.

    I open carry when I'm transporting other firearms so I can defend my possibly lethal property against theft, and when I'm hunting. I have no criminal record and I'm not ashamed to get finger printed again.

    So you open carry when YOU feel it is appropriate, but feel the need to dictate how others should exercise their rights? That is hypocrisy at a politician's level.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,548 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    ...and now the CEO is simply asking that open carry be not done and has however stopped at putting up the "no gun" signs.

    You have no problem with a "no guns" sign. How about a "No Negroes" sign?
    samzhere wrote: »
    When's the last time, by the way, you carried an old shotgun into Starbucks? Just wondering. Do you normally open carry a long gun around with you and take it into work or the Walmart or Kroger or other places, too?

    The last thing we need is another old white guy dictating what "normal" is...:roll:
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,045 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    You have no problem with a "no guns" sign. How about a "No Negroes" sign?
    I do have a problem with "no gun" signs, but I don't think your analogy works. A black person doesn't have a choice if he is black or not. A person can choose whether to enter an establishment with a gun or not. A business owner is well within their property rights to ask a black person to leave if they are acting like a jackass. The same goes for firearm owners acting like jackasses.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,549 Senior Member
    I feel strongly, both ways.

    Citizens have the right to walk around with AK-47's across their backs, if they want to. A business has the right to say. "check your weapons at the door." Their customers have the right to say, "no, I'll go somewhere else, thank you." Of course, businesses will band together and form coalitions so that you can't openly carry, in any business, and they also have this right. Then, open-carry activists will target them for boycotts and march as if on guard duty in front of their property, at which point they can be said to be creating a public nuisance, because they present a frightening presence to the folks who don follow or understand the issue, but do see the videos on TV of terrorists walking around with AK-47's. When it gets to this point, the activists will be dispersed by law enforcement officers.

    So, it gets back to the same old story: If the people who are members of a free society want to get along with each other, government, which barely works under any circumstances, can stay out of it and still be seen as doing a good job. However, if people want to be busy-bodies and tend to everybody else's business, there will be conflict, and government will feel obligated to step in and piss off one side or the other, to establish what their vision of "order" is. If the politicians that run the government are trying to do the right thing, they will piss off everybody, but if they are, instead, talented politicians, they will only piss off the people who are in a minority voting block.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,045 Senior Member
    Think of it this way...

    If I had the Klan come in my coffee shop exercising their free speech rights and making my other customers feel uncomfortable, I would tell them to get the hell out. In no way did I violate their First Amendment rights. They still have that right, just not on my property because I also have property rights.
  • tv_racin_fantv_racin_fan Senior Member Posts: 617 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    EXCEPT on private property where the owner says no. First, get your door locks fixed, then avoid pricey places like Starbucks in the first place. Brew your coffee at home and don't waste the gas or whatever on hunting till you can get your truck door locks repaired.

    The point however is NOT whether you can bear arms but whether you can do so on someone else's private property if the owner doesn't want you to.

    Starbucks has remained gun-friendly in the past by allowing open carry when many other businesses won't allow it, and now the CEO is simply asking that open carry be not done and has however stopped at putting up the "no gun" signs.

    When's the last time, by the way, you carried an old shotgun into Starbucks? Just wondering. Do you normally open carry a long gun around with you and take it into work or the Walmart or Kroger or other places, too?

    Except he didn't ask that OPEN CARRY not be done. HE asked you not to carry a gun into Starbucks openly or concealed.

    And it seems that most people forget that HE said what he said about firearms in response to the anti gun crowd attemtping to pressure him into installing no guns allowed signs in the first place.
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,451 Senior Member
    Yes, we should be able to carry what we want when we want. But that is not today's reality. MSM is trying their best to give guns a black eye. Give the Feinsteins of the world the fuel (public anger or apathy) to do away with our rights. We need to do everything we can to combat that, including being happy with what we have now (concealed carry)......

    We are gaining more rights every day in more and more states. Maybe someday we will get to the point where we can do what we want. Won't be in my lifetime though
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,451 Senior Member
    Except he didn't ask that OPEN CARRY not be done. HE asked you not to carry a gun into Starbucks openly or concealed.

    And it seems that most people forget that HE said what he said about firearms in response to the anti gun crowd attemtping to pressure him into installing no guns allowed signs in the second place.

    FIFY

    The first response to the anti gunners was to remain neutral. The CEO said specifically SB does not want to be a part of this political battle. Then all the Yumyum's start showing up with their AK's while the anti's stand back and say,'' See! See, how crazy they are!''

    SB's asked to stay out of the battle, and the OCer's dumped the battle on their doorstep. What are they supposed to do???
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,451 Senior Member
    Except he didn't ask that OPEN CARRY not be done. HE asked you not to carry a gun into Starbucks openly or concealed.


    And here is the letter. It has 'open carry' in it 9 times, I don't see 'concealed carry' in there anywhere. And it specifically cites the Starbuck's Appreciation Days (remember they said they wanted to stay neutral?) as the cause for THIS LETTER!
    Posted by Howard Schultz, Starbucks chairman, president and chief executive officer

    Dear Fellow Americans,

    Few topics in America generate a more polarized and emotional debate than guns. In recent months, Starbucks stores and our partners (employees) who work in our stores have been thrust unwillingly into the middle of this debate. That’s why I am writing today with a respectful request that customers no longer bring firearms into our stores or outdoor seating areas.

    From the beginning, our vision at Starbucks has been to create a “third place” between home and work where people can come together to enjoy the peace and pleasure of coffee and community. Our values have always centered on building community rather than dividing people, and our stores exist to give every customer a safe and comfortable respite from the concerns of daily life.

    We appreciate that there is a highly sensitive balance of rights and responsibilities surrounding America’s gun laws, and we recognize the deep passion for and against the “open carry” laws adopted by many states. (In the United States, “open carry” is the term used for openly carrying a firearm in public.) For years we have listened carefully to input from our customers, partners, community leaders and voices on both sides of this complicated, highly charged issue.

    Our company’s longstanding approach to “open carry” has been to follow local laws: we permit it in states where allowed and we prohibit it in states where these laws don’t exist. We have chosen this approach because we believe our store partners should not be put in the uncomfortable position of requiring customers to disarm or leave our stores. We believe that gun policy should be addressed by government and law enforcement—not by Starbucks and our store partners.

    Recently, however, we’ve seen the “open carry” debate become increasingly uncivil and, in some cases, even threatening. Pro-gun activists have used our stores as a political stage for media events misleadingly called “Starbucks Appreciation Days” that disingenuously portray Starbucks as a champion of “open carry.” To be clear: we do not want these events in our stores. Some anti-gun activists have also played a role in ratcheting up the rhetoric and friction, including soliciting and confronting our customers and partners.

    For these reasons, today we are respectfully requesting that customers no longer bring firearms into our stores or outdoor seating areas—even in states where “open carry” is permitted—unless they are authorized law enforcement personnel.

    I would like to clarify two points. First, this is a request and not an outright ban. Why? Because we want to give responsible gun owners the chance to respect our request—and also because enforcing a ban would potentially require our partners to confront armed customers, and that is not a role I am comfortable asking Starbucks partners to take on. Second, we know we cannot satisfy everyone. For those who oppose “open carry,” we believe the legislative and policy-making process is the proper arena for this debate, not our stores. For those who champion “open carry,” please respect that Starbucks stores are places where everyone should feel relaxed and comfortable. The presence of a weapon in our stores is unsettling and upsetting for many of our customers.

    I am proud of our country and our heritage of civil discourse and debate. It is in this spirit that we make today’s request. Whatever your view, I encourage you to be responsible and respectful of each other as citizens and neighbors.

    Sincerely,

    Howard Schult

    I feel this is reasonable considering they had already asked once to be left alone, and the OCer's ignored that request....
    For those who champion “open carry,” please respect that Starbucks stores are places where everyone should feel relaxed and comfortable. The presence of a weapon in our stores is unsettling and upsetting for many of our customers.
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,451 Senior Member
    Now look how the MSM is reporting on this. We gave them this fuel. Starbuck's didn't "enter the gun debate"! They were dragged kicking and screaming into the debate by our side!

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/09/18/first-take-starbucks-guns-gun-control/2830107/
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • SlanteyedshootistSlanteyedshootist Senior Member Posts: 3,947 Senior Member
    I think if Rosa Parks had tried to get on that bus buck naked to prove how black she was, she would have been refused and rightfully so. You can carry a good idea way too far.
    The answer to 1984 is 1776
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,451 Senior Member
    I think if Rosa Parks had tried to get on that bus buck naked to prove how black she was, she would have been refused and rightfully so. You can carry a good idea way too far.

    That.......... is a damn good analogy.
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 25,724 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    Property rights do not let you discriminate against blacks, gays, Muslims, etc. I ask again, what is the difference?

    Wrong. ANYONE entering a place of business and causing a disruption of that business can, and should, be asked to leave up to and including calling the cops and have them forcibly removed, and arrested if necessary.

    The OCers have a right to open carry. That right is tempered by the rights of the property/business owner. If they (OC crowd) cause no disruption, they are most likely welcome. If they use the business as a rallying point to get media attention and disrupt the normal business of the establishment, then THEY are INFRINGING ON THE RIGHT OF THE PROPERTY OWNER TO RUN THE BUSINESS IN A PROFITABLE MANNER. This ain't rocket surgery.

    Put in the simplest term I know, your right to throw a punch ends where the other person's nose begins. It applies to all rights. If that concept is too difficult to understand, then you are lost.
    Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.


  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,624 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    You say flaunt, I say exercising.

    CaliFFL, I had to take a moment to convince myself that you seriously just don't get it, do you? I guess you don't. Amazing, but true. Civil rights can indeed be flaunted - even abused. And abuse leads inevitably to regulation, or, ultimately, denial. The 1ST Amendment doesn't mean I can walk into a Starbucks, buy a cup of coffee and start celebrating Mass in their dining room, or stage a political debate, or set up my printer on one of their tables and start publishing. Civil rights are not carte blanche to annoy and irritate. Most adults have a sense of time and place. Shouting in a library is not "freedom of speech" and unless you're a LEO or a security guard, open carrying even just a sidearm in an urban/commercial environment is the same thing as shouting in a library. But carrying tactical longarms into a restaurant is like shouting into a megaphone.

    I don't know who does our cause more harm - gun owners who support banning 'assault weapons' and other so-called reasonable regulations, or gun freaks who are a constant source of embarrassment. With friends like these...
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    You have no problem with a "no guns" sign. How about a "No Negroes" sign?

    The last thing we need is another old white guy dictating what "normal" is...:roll:

    I think the first comment is specious. Racial discrimination is not legal and has been declared so. However, it is legal to prohibit firearms in a private business.

    And as for old white guys, hey, look at any stained glass window or Renaissance painting of the heavens. That old white guy had been throwing his weight around for ages now.

    But I understand the need to carry AR-15 and shotguns and other weapons around with you all the time. Just 'thuther day, I wuz wantin' ter go fer sum new hog griddles at thet their cornvenienze stor over in Buckaloo country -- we ain't lowwing no stores nor no fancy places what sell stuf in our county, unnerstand? We makes ur own hog griddles but mine busted and my 4th son was liad up wit them thar infecton in his laig, we had ter saw it off and #5 son was out fixin th horse corall so we was short a couple boys ter mine new arn fer new hog griddles, so I fetched up mu AR and 12gauge and tolt Ma, git yer rifles, we're goin ter town! And so we sets out with of courze 3 of mu younger suns riding guard lest them townpeople invades us or some zombies attack while we're outta tha bunker. I was kinda lightly armed, jest 4 sidearms, 2 .357s and 2 10mm (shoot nice even tho they got that furrin measurement in them), plus a courze my ARs (two on my shoulders, crossed, ya know) and 2 shotguns in muh hands so I hadta steer the mule wit mu feet but that wuz okay and I sets out at dawn, Ma and me and some of my smaller kidz as guards and decoys, y'know, and presently we **** acroz this here fetched on place an the wus aselling coffee and it shore smelt gud so we went it but they dint let mu mule inside and I thinks them is commies or mebbe zombie commies or even apartment dwellerz. the end

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    Wrong. ANYONE entering a place of business and causing a disruption of that business can, and should, be asked to leave up to and including calling the cops and have them forcibly removed, and arrested if necessary.

    The OCers have a right to open carry. That right is tempered by the rights of the property/business owner. If they (OC crowd) cause no disruption, they are most likely welcome. If they use the business as a rallying point to get media attention and disrupt the normal business of the establishment, then THEY are INFRINGING ON THE RIGHT OF THE PROPERTY OWNER TO RUN THE BUSINESS IN A PROFITABLE MANNER. This ain't rocket surgery.

    Put in the simplest term I know, your right to throw a punch ends where the other person's nose begins. It applies to all rights. If that concept is too difficult to understand, then you are lost.

    Fascinating and erudite comment, but gosh are you wrong!

    That Second Amendment give me the total right to be a pushy angry man anytime I want to! I can flaunt it too, and the commies can't object, heh heh!

    tenn, what you don't see is how difficult it is for us lowly apartment dwellers (LADs for short). You're probably sitting fine and dandy in your converted missile silo fortress so you don't appreciate the need for everyday LADs to even survive. Friday, my girlfriend and I decided to drive over to the Subway and pick up a couple sandwiches, as they're running the $5 special. It's only 4-5 blocks but you people living in your vast estates (protected by trained Bigfoots) or apocalypse bunkers just don't see how it is here in the hellhole called a "city". First we had to get into our ballistic armor -- simple vests don't cut it these days, sadly. Yes, full coverage armor is expensive, and hot, but it pays off to shield you from the continual small caliber sniper fire. My gf got her pump 12 gauge, I took an AR15, plus of course we both had 2 sidearms -- she's still committed to the lighter 9mil, says she can get more shots off at muggers, I use the .45s of course. First I sprayed a burst of rounds out the firing port in our front door, sweeping the immediate area. Then I laid down some suppressing fire for her while she ran to our car and got it unlocked. Of course she blew away 3 or 4 zombie nazis who were clustered around the car -- and I backed her up. We took off, running over a few more gangster rappers and commie (or was it nazi?) attackers. My gf kept up a good fire zone as I drove to Subway, then I covered her as she ran in and got our sandwiches. It was nearly over for both of us because she forgot the potato chips first time and had to fight her way back inside! On the way home we passed a Starbucks but didn't stop, as the place was surrounded by open-carry-be-damned demonstrators and nobody could get into the store to buy coffee. Serves 'em right! Just one errand in the busy and interesting, but hazardous day of the LADs. I tell you, tenn, if I couldn't carry 3 or 4 ARs wherever I go, I'd be toast! So even though your posting is intelligent, coherent, and right, you really can't understand how those of us in the daily field of fire need those open carry long guns! They come in handy when we go to Kroger, too, especially in finding a parking spot, I tell you!

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,563 Senior Member
    I live in an open carry state. Unfortunately several municipalities including my 9,000 population little town prohibit open carry. They are not allowed by the state constitution to pre-empt state law. Why can they do this? State law has no punishment for violating this law. Typically if someone is confronted by city police for open carry they are asked to not do that. If they argue that the city is violating the law they will be issued a citation. I think open carry would reduce crime. A mugger/robber seeing a handgun in a hip holster would tend to think "no thanks". I'll go find an anti gun victim. The municipalities prohibiting open carry further violate state law which allows a firearm to be carried in a vehicle if it is visible. The municipal laws allow a firearm in the passenger compartment if they are locked in a compartment and the key is not in the lock. My 2010 vehicle has no lockable compartments. The municipal "law" also allows open carry with a CCW permit which violates the state law which requires CCW weapons to be concealed! I choose to ignore the illegal municipal "laws".
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,624 Senior Member
    sgtrock21 wrote: »
    I live in an open carry state. Unfortunately several municipalities including my 9,000 population little town prohibit open carry.

    Unless you live in Illinois, you also live in a concealed carry state. Your solution to a ban on open carry is obvious. CCW!
  • QuinianQuinian Senior Member Posts: 707 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »

    When's the last time, by the way, you carried an old shotgun into Starbucks? Just wondering. Do you normally open carry a long gun around with you and take it into work or the Walmart or Kroger or other places, too?

    Starbucks? never cause their coffee tastes like something that came out of my trucks engine. Walmart? I try to avoid that place at all costs. City brew? Random bait shops? Gas stations? Every hunting season. They are scattered all over and I sometimes get bored, walk back into to town, grab some lunch and a coffee and head out. Even carried my bow a few times. Not a word was ever said. Even if I'm not currently toting my long guns or bow, I keep my pistol on a thigh holster so I can get to it if a big kitty jumps on me. Not exactly a normal place to carry. Again, no one has ever said a word to me about it. Then again I also don't live in a commie state. Individual experience may vary.

    Of course I also don't use their business to grandstand and make political statements. I just go in, buy my stuff, and leave. I'm not agreeing with all of the idjits who OC. I just think OCing while going about your daily business shouldn't be a problem, and we are part of the problem by allowing ourselves to be kowtowed into hiding our guns and going along with the taboo that oooh guns are evil and scary and should never been seen in public.
  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,244 Senior Member
    Starbucks said that they would follow the law, which is open carry. They did not want to take sides. Both sides have tried to get them to choose sides. They just want to do business, not choose sides. One guy going in open carrying, perfectly legal, everybody is happy. Fifty guys hanging out at Starbucks all day, carrying AR's and AK's, arguing with the Antis all day, I'm betting cut into the bottom line. I am all for the individual effort, but when we have gun owners getting obnoxious with the local coffee peddler's other customers, it does not help us at all.
    As to the comparison to Rosa Parks, she was arrested for her refusing to give up her seat. When an OC'er gets arrested because they won't give up their coffee to an anti', then you have a point. I will be among the first to chip in for the defense fund.
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,563 Senior Member
    horselips wrote: »
    Unless you live in Illinois, you also live in a concealed carry state. Your solution to a ban on open carry is obvious. CCW!
    I could get a CCW tomorrow if I wanted one. I don't feel the need for one. My problem with Illegal Municipal bans of open carry is that they are illegal. Why should I jump through the hoops to get a CCW and have my name and address posted by some libtard news reporter because they can!
  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,563 Senior Member
    horselips wrote: »
    Unless you live in Illinois, you also live in a concealed carry state. Your solution to a ban on open carry is obvious. CCW!
    Good luck acquiring a CCW in California or Washington DC!
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,548 Senior Member
    As to the comparison to Rosa Parks, she was arrested for her refusing to give up her seat. When an OC'er gets arrested because they won't give up their coffee to an anti', then you have a point. I will be among the first to chip in for the defense fund.

    Break out your checkbook...

    For those of us that pay attention to OC issues, there are many illegal arrests of OCer's every year. Most of the charges are "disturbing the peace" but occasionally the cops will threaten to murder an OCer, or lie and say the OCer pointed their weapon at him.

    http://www.opencarry.org/

    http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/rifles-near-appleton-farmers-market-lead-to-police-debate-b9996773z1-223514231.html

    http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Open-carry-debate-Man-arrested-after-causing-panic-in-Vancouver-214093571.html

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/09/14/three-texans-including-pastor-and-quadriplegic-arrested-for-openly-carrying-black-powder-pistols-why-pro-gun-group-claims-arrests-were-illegal/

    http://danaloeschradio.com/iraq-veteran-arrested-for-legally-open-carrying-rifle/
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,548 Senior Member
    horselips wrote: »
    CaliFFL, I had to take a moment to convince myself that you seriously just don't get it, do you? I guess you don't. Amazing, but true. Civil rights can indeed be flaunted - even abused. And abuse leads inevitably to regulation, or, ultimately, denial. The 1ST Amendment doesn't mean I can walk into a Starbucks, buy a cup of coffee and start celebrating Mass in their dining room, or stage a political debate, or set up my printer on one of their tables and start publishing. Civil rights are not carte blanche to annoy and irritate. Most adults have a sense of time and place. Shouting in a library is not "freedom of speech" and unless you're a LEO or a security guard, open carrying even just a sidearm in an urban/commercial environment is the same thing as shouting in a library. But carrying tactical longarms into a restaurant is like shouting into a megaphone.

    I don't know who does our cause more harm - gun owners who support banning 'assault weapons' and other so-called reasonable regulations, or gun freaks who are a constant source of embarrassment. With friends like these...

    Setting up Sunday mass or a printing press or shouting in a library or using a megaphone in a restaurant AFFECTS those around you. Simply carrying a weapon only affects someone if they are hoplophobic. Sorry bud, but I will not live my life worrying about other people's fears.

    I do know what does the most harm to our cause...supposed 2A supporters that demand restrictions on their rights out of fear that they may offend someone.

    It says "shall not be infringed".
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,253 Senior Member
    "Here lies the body of Jonathan Gray- - - -
    Who died while defending his right-of-way.
    He was right, dead right, as he sped along- - - -
    But he's just as dead as if he were wrong!"

    Open-carry advocates must have Don Quixote as their patron saint!
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,451 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    Break out your checkbook...

    For those of us that pay attention to OC issues, there are many illegal arrests of OCer's every year. Most of the charges are "disturbing the peace" but occasionally the cops will threaten to murder an OCer, or lie and say the OCer pointed their weapon at him.

    http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Open-carry-debate-Man-arrested-after-causing-panic-in-Vancouver-214093571.html

    How is this one an illegal arrest? Restaurant owner asked him to leave private property, he refused, owner calls cops. It's to late to leave when the law is on the way and say, ''I'm on a public sidewalk."
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,548 Senior Member
    jbp-ohio wrote: »
    How is this one an illegal arrest? Restaurant owner asked him to leave private property, he refused, owner calls cops. It's to late to leave when the law is on the way and say, ''I'm on a public sidewalk."

    What if the owner asked him leave because he was black? Or wearing a yarlmulke? Businesses that are open to the public do not get to discriminate against people that are exercising civil rights, unless someone is abusing those rights.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,451 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    What if the owner asked him leave because he was black? Or wearing a yarlmulke?


    What if he was smoking a joint? Just because you don't want it to be illegal, don't make it legal.....
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,548 Senior Member
    jbp-ohio wrote: »
    What if he was smoking a joint? Just because you don't want it to be illegal, don't make it legal.....

    Smoking affects those around you. Pointing a gun affects those around you. Wearing a gun, or hat, or pink fuzzy slippers affects no one.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
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