Colion Nior..... For the first time I disagree!

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Replies

  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,053 Senior Member
    Standing there with my wanker in my hand affects nobody else either (I call it freedom of speech) but it will certainly get me kicked out of a coffee shop.
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,459 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    Smoking affects those around you. Pointing a gun affects those around you. Wearing a gun, or hat, or pink fuzzy slippers affects no one.

    Sure it does. Did you not read the story?
    Police said he first went to a Burgerville restaurant with a rifle slung over his shoulder. An employee called 911.

    Vancouver police spokeswoman Kim Kapp said a security guard told Worley to leave and called police when he didn’t. Illegal

    By the time police arrived, Kapp said Worley had walked to a fireworks stand in the Big Al’s parking lot. Employees closed the stand because they were worried about what Worley was up to. An employee at Big Al’s called 911 while the business went into lockdown.

    There was two businesses trying to make a living for the owners and employees that lost money. If the owners of those businesses sued him for compensation, I would say 'yea' if I were on the jury.
    Coffee barista Dominick Harris watched as panicked parents grabbed their children and ran into the restaurant while police officers swarmed around Worley.

    And there are the future voters who are going to vote for anti-gun legislators, or even become anti-gun legislators themselves due to their 'tramatic' experience.

    Yes, they are stupid and irrational for being afraid of a gun. Welcome to 2013, Joe Public is stupid and irrational....
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,803 Senior Member
    Everyone has an opinion and I'm not going to say anyone is wrong, because all I have is an opinion myself. I don't have an absolute answer anymore than anyone else. However, I do have an OPINION on this. And that is Use Common Sense. Yes, I believe that any limitation of legal use of firearms is an infringement on our rights as to the Second Amendment. But I also realize that there are people out there on the fence. You want to make your cause "Unpopular" to the masses real quick, just brandish a bunch of guns in their face. This is like using the word weapon when referring to hunting and target shooting firearms. Yeah, every firearm is a Potential weapon, but if using that word pushes potential allys into the enemy camp, Don't do that. We need friends. And this is not appeasing the enemy. This is using your head when trying to sway those that might be on the fence, because I assure you, that everything we do as gun owners is being pointed out in a negative light from the antis side.

    Anyway, like I said, my opinion is that we should be strong and not cave on our belief of our right to keep and bear arms, but at the same time use our heads and not alienate the masses.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,459 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Standing there with my wanker in my hand affects nobody else either (I call it freedom of speech) but it will certainly get me kicked out of a coffee shop again.

    FIFY.... :tooth:
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,053 Senior Member
    You got to stir the coffee somehow!
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 25,774 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    You got to stir the coffee somehow!

    You just caused the punch bowl scene from the movie "Hollywood Knights" to flash through my brain! :rotflmao:
    Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.


  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,563 Senior Member
    jbp-ohio wrote: »
    Sure it does. Did you not read the story?
    There was two businesses trying to make a living for the owners and employees that lost money. If the owners of those businesses sued him for compensation, I would say 'yea' if I were on the jury.
    And there are the future voters who are going to vote for anti-gun legislators, or even become anti-gun legislators themselves due to their 'tramatic' experience.
    Yes, they are stupid and irrational for being afraid of a gun. Welcome to 2013, Joe Public is stupid and irrational....

    The guy from that article refused to surrender his right to KABA and was arrested for it. THAT was my point for posting that link. Sure he acted like an , but he shouldn't have been asked to leave in the first place.

    Look, I get it. The 2A community tries to keep a particular image that says we are "normal" and are the good guys. But, if we keep hiding the anti-gun conditioning of Joe Public will continue unfettered. They NEED to see ordinary people carrying during their routines to realize we're not gonna go all postal. They need to view us in the same manner they view cops. Nobody freaks when a cop walks into a gas station or coffee shop.

    I OC almost everywhere I go and I make a point to be pleasant when dealing with clerks, cashiers, and especially kids that stare at my 1911. I try to get them to focus on my attitude and not my weapon. People in places that I frequent see me and treat me no different than the other customers. Conditioning works.

    .
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,563 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Standing there with my wanker in my hand affects nobody else either (I call it freedom of speech) but it will certainly get me kicked out of a coffee shop.

    Not in San Francisco...:jester:
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,459 Senior Member
    Oh, I agree with you. It might have even worked if it weren't for the rabidly anti-gun media. They are pumping their message out 24/7/365 to nearly every single person in America.

    We are dealt a bad hand and OCing just makes it worse many more times than it helps.
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    All joking aside, I really have no objections to open carry. What the problem seems to be is that some very demonstration-minded gun owners want to use that open carry right to then take it a step further and form a protest at Starbucks to display their OC rights. Nobody wants noisy or pushy protesters in your face when you've simply trying to patronize a business for the actual business' purpose. If these OC people only were wanting to get coffee, no biggie.

    Some here are very vocal about OC rights, and they decry the Starbucks letter, but then they declaim that they don't even patronize the place anyway! So what's their problem? If they occasionally stir from their deep and fortified cave of solitude and venture into a civilized society, and they need to have some coffee, my recommendation is to bring a thermos.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,788 Senior Member
    I have the right of free speech, but it is illegal to yell "Fire" in a crowded theater when there is none. It is illegal to yell "bomb" on an airplane when there is none. While you have the right, there are consequences.

    I half expect that some open carrying douche bags that flaunt it are actually against the 2nd amendment. OC is fine, but should I have a AK pistol and 10 full mags with me as I walk around in public? I am definitely a right winger on this, but that is over the top and borders on threatening.

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,624 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    Simply carrying a weapon only affects someone if they are hoplophobic. Sorry bud, but I will not live my life worrying about other people's fears.

    WRONG. I can't believe I'm still responding to this - it's like teaching my dachshund to diagram sentences (she does, however, do well with arithmetic flashcards). As a retired restaurateur, I can tell you that if something affects the tranquility of my guests, it affects ME, and I'm no hoplophobe. And I don't care if my guests are. They're spending their money and they can believe whatever the hell they want. If your conduct affects THEM for ANY reason, you're affecting ME, and you're OUTTA HERE!

    Over the years, I've served lots of OC guests, but they were always just wearing handguns, and I'm sure my other guests just took them for plainclothes LEOs. Which they usually were. I never had to deal with a moron slinging an AK-47 or riot shotgun, but if I had, I would have asked him to please take his longarm out to the car and then I will be happy to accommodate him. Restaurants are not soapboxes for attention whores. They're BUSINESSES and they don't care how YOU want to live your life or what YOU think of other peoples' fears. YOU don't get to decide what affects OTHER people. Carry an RPG for all I care - I'm not a hoplophobe - just take your patronage elsewhere, thank you very much.
  • TrueTone911TrueTone911 Senior Member Posts: 6,045 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    I see both sides, but side more with business owners.
    While I know it work this way, I feel as a business owner that I should be able to discriminate against ANY ONE, for ANY REASON.


    I agree, you should be able to...but we don't live in that kind of world.

    Heard a story recently about a bakery that had to close their business because of the protesting and harassment backlash they received when the refused to bake the cake for a gay wedding.
  • Mike WeberMike Weber Member Posts: 91 Member
    People in California lost open carry mainly due to the negative attention brought by groups of these clowns showing up at Starbucks and other businesses packing AK's and Ar's.
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,352 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    The guy from that article refused to surrender his right to KABA and was arrested for it. THAT was my point for posting that link. Sure he acted like an , but he shouldn't have been asked to leave in the first place.

    Why shouldn't he have been asked to leave? If his presence, armed as he was, caused other customers to leave-irrespective of the reasonability of their actions-then Starbuck's was well within their right to ask or even demand that he leave. Now, his arrest is another story, unless the arrest was for trespassing or some such, which I suspect is more then likely

    Look, I get it. The 2A community tries to keep a particular image that says we are "normal" and are the good guys. But, if we keep hiding the anti-gun conditioning of Joe Public will continue unfettered. They NEED to see ordinary people carrying during their routines to realize we're not gonna go all postal. They need to view us in the same manner they view cops. Nobody freaks when a cop walks into a gas station or coffee shop.

    I OC almost everywhere I go and I make a point to be pleasant when dealing with clerks, cashiers, and especially kids that stare at my 1911. I try to get them to focus on my attitude and not my weapon. People in places that I frequent see me and treat me no different than the other customers. Conditioning works.

    I don't feel this is an image issue as much as it's a property rights issue. The image problem is there, but as you've stated that is due mostly to people's irrational fears than anything else. Since rationality doesn't figure into the mix, an image makeover makes little sense.
    .
    .
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • Mike WeberMike Weber Member Posts: 91 Member
    This happened in Texas not at a Starbuck's but a similar scenario. In my view the police were very reasonable. I've noticed in several of these incidents the guys doing the open carry protest have refused police requests to provide ID, and then they wonder why the police become irate.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 14,835 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    Nobody freaks when a cop walks into a gas station or coffee shop.

    Yet I've never seen a cop gassing up his vehicle, munching a doughnut or sipping coffee with an M-4 or a riot gun slung over his shoulder.
    I understand the importance of "normalizing" firearms and educating folks that firearms are tools, nothing more, but while I've had lunch with a pair of fence pliers in my back pocket, I've never dragged a 3 foot pipe wrench into the cafe...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • TrueTone911TrueTone911 Senior Member Posts: 6,045 Senior Member
    Maybe they were breaking no laws and were not required to show their ID but it seams the biggest problem WAS their defensive and combative attitude.

    I respect the job our LEOs have to do so if he wants to see my ID...I'm showing him my ID whether I'm required to or not.

    This guy had a prior experience with the law that put a big chip on his shoulder. Or maybe the chip was always there which is why he has prior negative interactions with LEOs.

    Anyway...thanks for sharing the video.
  • RazorbackerRazorbacker Senior Member Posts: 4,646 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    Yet I've never seen a cop gassing up his vehicle, munching a doughnut or sipping coffee with an M-4 or a riot gun slung over his shoulder.
    I understand the importance of "normalizing" firearms and educating folks that firearms are tools, nothing more, but while I've had lunch with a pair of fence pliers in my back pocket, I've never dragged a 3 foot pipe wrench into the cafe...

    Wow, fantastic analogies on both ends. Cali, I completely understand where you're coming from. But if you walk around like that then you have to expect people to freak out and drop a dime on you. The reality of the times we live in are what they are. I'm on your side dude but if you OC then be prepared to deal with the scrutiny.
    This from a guy who came of age when gun racks in the back glass of the pick up were common. And cops didn't bat an eye when pulling you over for whatever. I mean those long guns didn't raise the first eyebrow.
    Teach your children to love guns, they'll never be able to afford drugs
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,563 Senior Member
    Mike Weber wrote: »
    People in California lost open carry mainly due to the negative attention brought by groups of these clowns showing up at Starbucks and other businesses packing AK's and Ar's.

    People of California lost open carry in 1967 when the Black Panthers marched into Sacramento openly wearing handguns and carrying shotguns. Reagan signed the Mulford Act saying, “no reason why on the street today a citizen should be carrying loaded weapons.” The Mulford Act, he said, “would work no hardship on the honest citizen.”

    Funny how politicians get to declare who the honest citizens are.

    I suppose the G&A crowd will compare the recent OC'ers with the 1967 Black Panthers. I see some validity to that. Two groups that were "over-the-top" exercising their rights, marginalized by the press and their peers, and blamed for lawmakers passing stricter laws.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,563 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    Yet I've never seen a cop gassing up his vehicle, munching a doughnut or sipping coffee with an M-4 or a riot gun slung over his shoulder.
    I understand the importance of "normalizing" firearms and educating folks that firearms are tools, nothing more, but while I've had lunch with a pair of fence pliers in my back pocket, I've never dragged a 3 foot pipe wrench into the cafe...

    The lesson here is "small guns are OK" but "big guns are bad".

    Got it. Thanks for clarifying.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Standing there with my wanker in my hand affects nobody else either (I call it freedom of speech) but it will certainly get me kicked out of a coffee shop.

    Thanks for the laugh! And the truth, too.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    horselips wrote: »
    Restaurants are not soapboxes for attention whores. They're BUSINESSES and they don't care how YOU want to live your life or what YOU think of other peoples' fears.

    Thank you!

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 6,243 Senior Member
    If one is carrying an AK on their shoulder to the local coffee shop, they've moved way past self defense at that point. This is more in the realm of trolling, real life style.

    I'm not a hoplophobe, instead I will make fun of you incessantly if I see you doing this.
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,563 Senior Member
    Buffco wrote: »
    If one is carrying an AK on their shoulder to the local coffee shop, they've moved way past self defense at that point. This is more in the realm of trolling, real life style.

    I'm not a hoplophobe, instead I will make fun of you incessantly if I see you doing this.

    You can join this guy:

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/09/23/chicken-gun-protest/2854489/
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 14,835 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    The lesson here is "small guns are OK" but "big guns are bad".

    Got it. Thanks for clarifying.

    There's a time and a place for everything, when my coffee shop installs a gun rack, I'll consider taking my deer rifle in while I eat.
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,668 Senior Member
    jbp-ohio wrote: »

    Open carry at Starbucks will bring more fence sitters to the anti-concealed carry side.
    That's my complaint with the OC crowd as well
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,668 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    , but he shouldn't have been asked to leave in the first place.

    .
    So, in your world, whatever Joe Citizen wants to do is fine, even if whomever's property he's on asks him to leave?????
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,668 Senior Member
    Oh and just so you know, I HAVE been known to OC on occasion, normally while going too or from hunting, or most recently, while headed to or from where I hunt while working on food plots.
    I either had a 6" 686 on my hip, or once had the 1911 in a military shoulder holster.
    Around here, no one really gave me a second glance.....
    HOWEVER, I am quite certain if, instead of one of those 2 pistols, I had my 10.5" AR pistol slung across my chest that someone would have freaked out and "dropped a dime" on my @**

    Still open carrying, STILL legal, but I would be utterly surprised if I DIDN'T have a chat with a LEO about it
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,563 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    So, in your world, whatever Joe Citizen wants to do is fine, even if whomever's property he's on asks him to leave?????

    Since you chose to read only one of my previous posts in this thread, I'll give you a summary, then I'm done with it.

    •If a business is open to the public, then they should not be able to discriminate against anyone exercising civil rights. The business owner does not have the right to declare his property a sovereign nation, exempt from the BOR.

    •A business that openly invites the public inside the premises cannot refuse service to a black man simply because he’s black. Why refuse service to someone that is carrying? I’m not only talking about long guns, but businesses that post “No guns” signs and even CCWs cannot enter legally.

    •Businesses are required by law to provide handicap parking , toilets, and access, cannot refuse service animals no matter how poorly groomed the owners keep them, etc.. If a business must accept these burdens as a prerequisite of their business license, why should they be allowed to deny someone carrying a weapon (exercising a civil right)?

    I tend to err on the side of individual freedom. I can’t figure why some of you want to impose restrictions on how others decide to defend themselves or reducing them to second class citizens because they behave in a manner that YOU deemed outside the norm.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
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