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How would you handle this situation?

fufufufu MemberPosts: 36 Member
The wife and I are leaving a crowded parking lot after an event. We are playing nice in the heavy traffic, patiently waiting our turn to "jump" in line. A car turns in front of us, AND THE CAR BEHIND THAT, guns it and cuts my wife off. She lays on the horn and I said, "**** " pretty loud(window down).

The first car, NOT THE CAR that cut us off, starts talking out of the passenger window(female). I said nothing, stated to the wife "who is she talking too?". Then, two people, male and female, exit the first car, run towards our car and my open window. I attempted to roll up the window, by the stupid window lock button was activated. Words were exchanged, I stated that I was pissed at the Subraru in front of us, not your vehicle. Nevertheless, that's when all hell broke loose, the male and female started throwing fists in my window, I kicked the SOB(male) in the face. But, I ended up with a busted lip from ordeal. Looks like hell, but doesn't hurt.

Anyway, I wasn't carrying and didn't have a knife on me. Had I been carrying, could I have pulled my gun? I feel has I'd have been justified pulling it, perhaps not using it though. It struck me as the first time I would have been put into a position of using or not using my gun. I want to ensure I completely understand when I can/cannot pull my weapon. With the infinite possible scenarios, its because a judgement call.....

Please advise.
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Replies

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,554 Senior Member
    Deadly force is used when in fear of grave bodily injury or death to yourself or another innocent. A gun constitutes deadly force.

    Did you have that fear? Can you articulate it well enough in a court of law?
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,554 Senior Member
    The threat needs to have 3 things leading up to your use of deadly force.

    The means......
    The opportunity......
    The intent.......

    To cause you grave bodily injury or death. Did they have that? Can you articulate as much?
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,554 Senior Member
    Always consider that YOU presenting a lethal weapon in a situation that is NON-lethal could escalate the situation to such. Then, you will have to deal with what you yourself created.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 25,146 Senior Member
    Don't holler obscenities out the window.
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member
    If TWO individuals are aggressively approaching me AND MY WIFE, I'm pulling. That gives the them the opportunity to retreat and me and my wife the opportunity to leave uninjured.
    When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.

    Adam J. McCleod


  • shootbrownelkshootbrownelk Senior Member Posts: 2,035 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    If TWO individuals are aggressively approaching me AND MY WIFE, I'm pulling. That gives the them the opportunity to retreat and me and my wife the opportunity to leave uninjured.

    That also opens up a charge of brandishing a weapon, if the police intervene. Unless they're armed with some weapon, I wouldn't. Also, by swearing aloud to whomever in that situation you in fact started it.
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member
    That also opens up a charge of brandishing a weapon, if the police intervene. Unless they're armed with some weapon, I wouldn't. Also, by swearing aloud to whomever in that situation you in fact started it.

    Fists and feet (X2) are lethal weapons. I'm not waiting around until someone starts pummeling my wife. The last thing I'm worrying about is the police when me and my wife's lives are threatened.

    BTW, since when does swearing out of a car window justify assault and battery? Do you attack everyone that swears at you? After all, they started it.

    I don't condone the swearing, but I don't blame the victim of an attack either.
    When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.

    Adam J. McCleod


  • jaywaptijaywapti Senior Member Posts: 5,037 Senior Member
    The best recourse is not to get in a confrontation in the first place, i my old age if someone cuts me off i just let it be and chalk it up to another on the road.

    When i was younger i might not have been so nice.

    JAY
    THE DEFINITION OF GUN CONTROL IS HITTING THE TARGET WITH YOUR FIRST SHOT
  • zeke4351zeke4351 Member Posts: 31 Member
    I take a lot more crap and ignore stupid people since I started carrying. If you haven't changed the way you look at situations since you started carrying you might be headed for some serious trouble or even get yourself shot. If you had a gun with you and pulled it without intent to shoot you could have very easily got shot if any of the other people happen to have been carrying. You should do everything you can to avoid any kind of situation like that and only pull your gun to shoot and defend your life. There was two people just killed each other in a road rage incident.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    How would I handle the situation?

    1) not honk my horn if someone cuts me off 2) not yell obscenities or anything else out of the window. 3) have my windows rolled up and doors locked, only time windows are down is if driving continually along a road or at the bank or whatever. Thugs often target slow moving parking jams and having your windows up for such is a good idea.

    Also, I am ALWAYS armed and I'm also very aware of the obligations for this. I was taught this by both of my armed self-defense instructors -- that having a gun means that you now must withdraw from the normal one-finger-salute or name-calling antics that drivers use. No road rage acts, ever again. This is because you are holding the trump card but it can only be played if you're in a genuinely serious showdown.

    You therefore cannot ever be an agent, even partially, in escalating a confrontation. Stay cool and stay quiet, horn included. If someone else wishes to effect a confrontation, let it all be on their head, which will help you if you ever, heaven forbid, have to use that weapon that you're always carrying.

    This being said, I agee with Cali that if you and your significant other are being confronted by potential attackers, then by all means you're justified in having that weapon visible and ready for use. This is why it's VERY essential that you are totally blameless in any degree of escalation prior to that, so you now have "clean hands" (the common law term).

    A person physically attacking you but without a weapon can still be considered a justifiable threat. You aren't expected to let the person kick and beat on you for, oh, 4.5 minutes and then decide that it's now okay to display or use your weapon. You don't have to be confronted by a weapon to be justified in using one as defense. And if you live in a state or municipality where this isn't true (Nuu Yawk maybe), then move by all means.

    Most important here, and I emphasize this because this is the real legal grabber that can get you in hot water, is that you can NOT have any part in the escalation behavior. You've GOT to be totally neutral before. Most armed self defense courses teach this early on. If you were engaged in a shouting match prior, then this impacts your justifiable behavior "window" and can minimize your legal excuses.

    That being said, if you're confronted by people attacking you as you're in your car, as Cali correctly implies, you are perfectly within your rights (at least in Texas) to produce your weapon as a means to ward off the attack. (example follows)
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 14,282 Senior Member
    I don't know, if I was having someone punch my wife while someone was punching me, I would probably be drawing and dialing 911 ASAP, I am sure there are some cameras recording this somewhere nearby and sounds like there is a bunch of witnesses too. I hope you took their pictures and their car with the phone, I would have taking pictures of the folks and cars around me also, let the cops contact them.

    That is a bad spot to be in, trapped in a line of cars leaving a sporting event.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Happened to me about 5-6 years ago...

    I was at a British pub (Teach has been there), nice place in a decent neighborhood but there are jerks and creeps everywhere. This bar is on a 1-way street so my car was parked against the curb to the left, so the driver door exited onto the sidewalk near the pub.

    I'm partially handicapped so I move slow. I left the pub and headed the 50 ft to my car, and as I did, this big stumbly street guy started sauntering over toward me from where he'd been hangout at a convenience store nearby. I moved as fast as possible and ignored him "Hey, Hey" at me, made it into the driver's seat but before I could get the door closed, he put himself in the gap and stood there on the sidewalk and blocking me from closing the door.

    "Maybe you could spare a few bucks" and also "Nice day" and other stoned or drunk behavior. I told him "Get away" and he didn't, I said "Please go away" and he kept asking for money and mumbling other stuff. Then he reached into the car toward me where I sat...

    and he immediately had the muzzle of a Glock 30 stuck up his nose, "Get the hell away or I'll shoot you!" and amazingly, he finally understood and scooted back. I immediately closed and locked my door, then drove away. And I went straight to a police substation nearby and wrote out a report. I wanted my report to be the first thing the cops heard about this incident.

    I was called a couple hours later by the cops that the guy had been picked up for loitering and possession of meth.

    In this incident, I could easily tell a court "I feared for my life" because it was true. The guy could have pulled my head off and I wouldn't have been able to fight him muscle-for-muscle. That's what guns are for.

    But if I'd been engaged in a shouting and finger-salute match with the guy and THEN pulled a gun, it would have been different.

    Shouting or flipping the bird or tooting the horn or tailgating are all juvenile and armed or not, you need to stop those actions.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    CHIRO1989 wrote: »
    That is a bad spot to be in, trapped in a line of cars leaving a sporting event.

    Chiro's absolutely correct. You're stuck. Which is why you should have your doors locked and windows up and not be tooting the horn, either.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    Yeah, no use courting problems. Another suggestion, Move to Texas. We have the castle doctrine and had George Zimmerman would have sot Trayvon Martin around here (well, any place but liberalville Austin) he would have never gone to trial and probably never arrested in the first place. We take a dim view of people beating up on others. And we have a gun friendly State Government. Our present Governor is a 2A dude from hell, LOL!!!

    I agree with Sam. You have to hold your temper. You don't swear at people you don't know. Always avoid the confrontation if possible. If you're pissed off, go home and beat the dog or something. Just don't let your emotions get the best of you. A cool head gives you a great advantage. Not to say there's not a time and place for the gun. Like Sam illustrated here, he was trying not to antagonize the perp, but the perp would have none of it. Then, as a last resort he brandished the firearm under the perp's face which caused the perp to restart his thinking process, which evidently had gone south on him. That's why we have Concealed Carry laws.

    And despite the fervor over it, the "Stand Your Ground" laws are viable where they are the law. This is what they are for. When someone attacks you unprovoked, they have given up their rights.

    You don't have to see the perp is armed. If he is aggressively attacking you, you might consider him as armed and dangerous. You have no way of knowing at the moment. For all you know he's about to pull HIS concealed weapon and ruin your day permanently. If you have not provoked the situation, if you have fear of your or your families life is threatened, then it's prudent to draw your weapon. Just remember that the cardinal rule here is NEVER draw your weapon if you're unsure. Never draw it unless you are positive you can use it. The worst case Scenario here is to draw a gun and then not use it. Then you run the very REAL risk of having the perp disarm you and use your on weapon on you. So when you draw the weapon be ready to use it if needed.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • shootbrownelkshootbrownelk Senior Member Posts: 2,035 Senior Member
    zeke4351 wrote: »
    I take a lot more crap and ignore stupid people since I started carrying. If you haven't changed the way you look at situations since you started carrying you might be headed for some serious trouble or even get yourself shot. If you had a gun with you and pulled it without intent to shoot you could have very easily got shot if any of the other people happen to have been carrying. You should do everything you can to avoid any kind of situation like that and only pull your gun to shoot and defend your life. There was two people just killed each other in a road rage incident.

    Perhaps this is what I should have said, it's what I meant. You pull that gun, you had better be ready to use it. And If you do use it, on an unarmed person....well this country is just full of attorneys that'd be lined-up to sue for the victims family.
  • 5280 shooter II5280 shooter II Senior Member Posts: 3,923 Senior Member
    They got out of their car and physically attacked you through the window while you were in your car......they earned the right to be shot in self-defense.

    I deal with this everyday driving a commercial vehicle as big as a moving van......I get the finger a few times by self-righteous people who think they own the road an get "irritated" by others following traffic law while they don't. Since I'm a rolling billboard, I have to swallow a lot of frustration and tell myself to blow it off, I'm not in that big of a hurry......he's a jerk and I'm not, and I'm not going to escalate their attitude problem.

    Going to the car that cut you off that started this episode.....a few words.....

    "Effing Subaru drivers are the worst people" Seconded by Jeep drivers not in a Wrangler (They're NOT Jeep people, they've transcended into dickhood or they're poseurs ).......followed by drivers of pick-up trucks that don't see any mud or usage......and then........Semi Truck Drivers.

    I can understand the plight of driving a semi tractor-trailor in urban traffic though.

    There was two studies done recently that said drivers of blue BMWs were the worst jerks on the road........I only see that with the SUV versions like X3/5.....same for the Volvo XC series.......it's not the car, it's the idiot behind the wheel. Audi and Mercedes drivers tend to be risky, but cautious.

    However I don't see that too much. Front Range Colorado though is the Subaru capital of the world, so the numbers are skewed, but I've yet to see a courteous Subaru driver.

    And if anyone is still sporting an Obama/Biden bumper sticker......just stay clear, 'cause that's a bona-fide idiot that can't be reasoned with.

    That's my rant.
    God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
  • fufufufu Member Posts: 36 Member
    I made a few poor decisions that night. I agree that yapping out the window wasn't smart but... I shouldn't have been assaulted either. At the end of the day, a learning experience. Makes me respect the right to CC even more.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    fufu wrote: »
    I made a few poor decisions that night. I agree that yapping out the window wasn't smart but... I shouldn't have been assaulted either. At the end of the day, a learning experience. Makes me respect the right to CC even more.

    Was Alcohol involved?
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 18,138 Senior Member
    Another reflection...the minute you stepped out of your door that day without taking your CCW, you set yourself up to take whatever anyone decided to dish out - not like you had a lot of options. What signs were there that morning that made you think it would be OK to venture out unarmed? A prime example of "better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it"
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,554 Senior Member
    Fufu: "But, I ended up with a busted lip from the ordeal. Looks like hell, but doesn't hurt."

    They got out of their car physically attacked you through the window while you were in your car......they earned the right to be shot in self-defense.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • fufufufu Member Posts: 36 Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    Was Alcohol involved?

    I had 3 beers, part of the reason I didn't carry.
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 14,282 Senior Member
    Did you call the cops? They could not have had a speedy getaway stuck in traffic with you.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • fufufufu Member Posts: 36 Member
    CHIRO1989 wrote: »
    Did you call the cops? They could not have had a speedy getaway stuck in traffic with you.

    No, the wife wanted too, but I told her not to worry about it. Part of the reason: I'm Active Duty military, had this incident been reported....I'd have been guilty regardless. That's how the military works now. IMO, it wasn't worth the risk. If someone at work asks, I fell while hiking. ;-)
  • 5280 shooter II5280 shooter II Senior Member Posts: 3,923 Senior Member
    The way the military works now, you would've gotten a purple heart for combat against local insurgents......and an article 15 for fighting under the influence.
    God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 6,244 Senior Member
    Always wondered why daddy taught me to never honk my horn. Taught me to drive when I was 7, and gruffly reprimanded me when I honked the horn in a moment of jubilation.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    etc etc Just remember that the cardinal rule here is NEVER draw your weapon if you're unsure. Never draw it unless you are positive you can use it. The worst case Scenario here is to draw a gun and then not use it. etc etc

    A slight comment here, which I'm pretty certain that snake meant to say anyway: "The worst case scenario is to draw a gun and then not be PREPARED to use it."

    Similar to the stoner threat I described, I've been in several other "near shoot" instances, where I actually drew down on the person and warned them "another step..." which got them to back off.

    I was however ready to fire, had it been necessary. Thankfully it was the presence of my weapon that prevented further violence. And this is as it should be.

    If you EVER pull a firearm you MUST be prepared to use it to lethal effect. If you cannot justify that situation then you leave the gun in the glovebox or home or wherever. But being prepared to fire doesn't mean that you actually fire. And as I said, I think this was actually what snake meant to say.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Perhaps this is what I should have said, it's what I meant. You pull that gun, you had better be ready to use it. And If you do use it, on an unarmed person....well this country is just full of attorneys that'd be lined-up to sue for the victims family.

    You're right on the civil lawsuit which is why everyone should move to Texas (ha ha). No, actually, any state with a standard, modern "Castle Doctrine" law such as we have in Tx.

    One aspect of the law that's not mentioned is that IF you use a firearm for self defense and the Grand Jury** nobills you and your actions are adjudged legal and justifiable, you are then exempt from any civil suit regarding that shooting!

    (** In Texas, ALL intentional killings, whether self defense, police shooting, using a baseball bat, etc, regardless of the mode or motive, if the taking of life is intentional, -- traffic accidents or negligent death MIGHT go to the GJ too -- Tx law requires that the case be presented by the County Attorney to the Grand Jury. What happens is that the police investigate, recommend to the prosecutor whether to charge the person or not. Then the prosecutor, who usually agrees with the cops -- may or may not choose to proffer charges. If the shoot is justified, for example, the police say No biggie, the prosecutor presents to the GJ but without charges, recommending a good shoot, and the GJ follows suit. Each state has its own rules on how charges are filed.)

    Also realize that "good" self defense laws (like in Tx and most other sensible states) make no distinction whether the attacker was armed. Consider my situation, partially disabled and quite unable to physically defend myself from hands-on assault, weapons or not. Same for a woman under attack. Most physically fit men could bust me up easily -- I might get in a lick or two and use some of my old Shotokan but probably not too much. And very few muggers are unarmed, using at least a knife or club.

    Which is why guns were invented.

    And at least in Texas, if I'm attacked physically by someone who's unarmed, and I put a .45 round into him "because I feared for my life" then I can be found blameless and the shooting justified.

    What's essential is that we are very very responsible regarding carrying firearms for self defense, and then, if we need to "present" that weapon, it's with the understanding that we MIGHT then use it and kill someone, and it will be rendered legally guilt free. Personal remorse is yet another matter.
  • 5280 shooter II5280 shooter II Senior Member Posts: 3,923 Senior Member
    Brandishing can get carried away though, like with road-rage....... with the wrong nut behind the trigger, so it's a no tolerance thing unless the weapon was about to be used with all it's consequences.

    If you're in the right and some ninny complains you pulled a pistol and stopped their potential beating or mugging......whose the GJ gonna believe?
    God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
  • agewonagewon Senior Member Posts: 655 Senior Member
    Another derail here;
    In this case if he were CC, what would have been the odds? Aside from getting a beating for running your mouth, this could have gone two ways. Either he pulled and the attackers backed off, or he pulled and used.
    Being that all he has to complain about is a busted lip, where does someone who is CC draw the line? Me, I'd be hard pressed to see anyone lay a finger on the wife, but in this case would pulling on two chumps be justified? I know hindsight is 20/20, but how do you guys lucky enough to have a CCP draw the line?
  • 5280 shooter II5280 shooter II Senior Member Posts: 3,923 Senior Member
    agewon wrote: »
    Another derail here;
    In this case if he were CC, what would have been the odds? Aside from getting a beating for running your mouth, this could have gone two ways. Either he pulled and the attackers backed off, or he pulled and used.
    Being that all he has to complain about is a busted lip, where does someone who is CC draw the line? Me, I'd be hard pressed to see anyone lay a finger on the wife, but in this case would pulling on two chumps be justified? I know hindsight is 20/20, but how do you guys lucky enough to have a CCP draw the line?
    They got out of their car and physically attacked you through the window while you were in your car......they earned the right to be shot in self-defense.
    This is the line.

    Saying something in frustration in traffic is an everyday thing, when someone gets out to confront you it escalates the situation.....especially when said persons where not the ones he "mouthed off" to.....he attempted to explain it wasn't them he was mad about, but they pushed it, so they earned it.

    Personally they should've been shot for general dickorry.....but that's not allowed.
    God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
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