CCW/HD Target Practice & Techniques

HDKorpHDKorp MemberPosts: 70 Member
While at the range, the wife and I practice at 15'-20' with the various handguns. Besides not being allowed any closer, I think it's a good distance. One range we've been to requires a minimum of 35'.

What distance do you practice at?

Are there any specific techniques you practice regularly?
- Colt Cobra .38 Special, Walther P38 9mm, Para USA 1911 GI Expert Stainless .45ACP
- Ithaca Model 72 Lever Action .22LR, Remington 11-87 Semi-auto 12-Gauge, Remington 870 Express Super Magnum 12-Gauge Pump Shotgun/Slug Combo
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Replies

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,564 Senior Member
    Distance?
    Contact (hands on/index) distance to 100 yards.

    Techniques?
    Draw
    sight acquisition
    malfunction drills
    reloads
    moving & shooting

    All the above are tasks that should not require conscious thought. No such thing as muscle memory. You must "train the brain" to perform routine tasks without thought.

    This leaves the brain to figure out more important things. Like how to get OUT of the bad situation you somehow stumbled IN.

    If I have to THINK about my draw, I'm already behind the power curve. If I have to THINK about sight alignment and trigger control, I might as well hand them my gun to beat me with. If, upon reaching slide lock, I have to stare stupidly at my gun before realizing its empty.........I might as well insert a new mag and suck start my pistol.

    I should address the threat instinctively and immediately while at the same time, assessing the situation and looking for ways to better my standing there in. My gun should be an extension of my hand. If it's not............make it so!
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Distance?
    Contact (hands on/index) distance to 100 yards.

    Techniques?
    Draw
    sight acquisition
    malfunction drills
    reloads
    moving & shooting

    :that:

    Being a broke student, I don't have the money or time to get to the range as often as I'd like, so I also do quite a bit of dry practice as well. Gun-handling is definitely a perishable skill, and while dry practice will never be as good as live fire, I definitely notice a "decreased decrease" in between range trips when I've done a bit of dry practice everyday, as opposed to when I just rely on infrequent range trips.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Back a zillion years ago, I submitted an article premise to the NRA magazine and it was not only accepted, but got the cover! My premise was that gun writers get the best of all stuff and can do about anything they want, but the average Joe or Jill might not, especially have the dough for a genuine tactical draw/fire class and be limited to the typical up/back gun range.

    So I developed "Sam's Overlap Method"...
    1- At home, make CERTAIN your weapon is unloaded. Then holster it, and practice drawing and dry-firing at some small object, like a light switch or doorknob or other non-animal fake target. Don't worry about snapcaps or whatever, it's the movement of the firearm from holster to ready position that you want to get good with.
    2- Then, at the range, lower the gun as far as the range rules allow (most ranges don't allow draw/fire and require the muzzle be pointed downrange). So, remembering the arc that your weapon used during the dryfire home practice, lower the weapon from the target as far as rules allow, make sure it's in the same "draw" arc as the full draw practice arc, and then raise and aim and fire.
    3- Therefore, the full arc of unloaded home practice draw from holster and dryfire is then overlapped at the range with the shorter "range legal" arc where you actually fire. Sam's Overlap Method.
    Perfect? Nope. But best available if you're limited to a regular range where you can't draw and fire.
    (more)

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,564 Senior Member
    There should be NO arc in the draw/presentation of a handgun.

    Someone has has been watching too much TV.

    ;-)
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Distance? If you're doing some fun target shooting and want to work on distances, by all means, as Z says, 100yds.

    However, if you're ONLY practicing self defense, I maintain that 100yds is much too far for any reasonable self defense distance. The vast majority of SD shoots occur almost within reach, or a bit further, like 20 feet.

    I've got no idea why you're not allowed to shoot closer than 35' but go to a "closer" range. Work on technique for quick, accurate, repeated hits center mass at 20-25 feet, also closer, and also do some occasional practice at 40-50 feet but that's about it. No further.

    If you're stuck in a booth (many folks are, not having access to a full tactical range or maybe on a budget), then do this: vary your stance within the booth itself as much as you can -- stand to the left, to the right, and also practice 1-hand and 2-hand shooting so you become flexible as possible.

    First, "acquire" the target.. this means having a good stance facing the target and bringing the gun to bear on the bullseye, then rip off 3-4 rounds as accurately and as quickly as you can. Then shoot just single rounds, then 2 quick shots, then back to 3-4 shots quickly. Train yourself to have as much flexibility as you can, in other words. Vary both the distance, the number of rounds per "grouping", and your stance inside the booth.

    Another good tip: Most target hangers use 2 spring clamps. So hang 2 separate small bullseye targets side by side, then practice putting 2 rounds in the left, followed by 2 rounds in the right, quickly. And of course switch, shooting at the right target first, then the left.

    Try to think up as many different slight variations in posture, number of shots fired in a "group", stance, 1-hand vs 2-hand gripping, and so on.

    And keep us updated on your progress. Eventually of course you'll have to move to Texas, that is for certain. But for now, do your best, ha ha.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • HDKorpHDKorp Member Posts: 70 Member
    I know you need to practice, practice, practice. Then practice some more.

    Sam's Overlap Method...will definitely give it a try.

    As far as Snap Caps, after watching a very good comparison review...I ordered some Tiptons.
    - Colt Cobra .38 Special, Walther P38 9mm, Para USA 1911 GI Expert Stainless .45ACP
    - Ithaca Model 72 Lever Action .22LR, Remington 11-87 Semi-auto 12-Gauge, Remington 870 Express Super Magnum 12-Gauge Pump Shotgun/Slug Combo
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    There should be NO arc in the draw/presentation of a handgun.

    Someone has has been watching too much TV.

    ;-)

    By "arc" I was being flowery. I really should have simply said "draw pathway" -- but thinking about it, let's say you've got a standard side holster. You draw slightly to the rear and mostly upward, the muzzle is still pointing down, correct? So then during the action of bringing that muzzle to point at the target, the barrel changes from vertical to horizontal, correct? Isn't that a sort of "arc", a 90 deg tilt of the barrel? And you also bring your gun hand forward from your siide, so that the gun hand is thrust more in front of you -- it doesn't remain at your side but is brought forward, correct? Isn't that an arc too? Or some sort of curve? I mean, aren't you lifting the pistol vertically and moving it forward at the same time? Or, do you instead 1-lift it straight vertical, then 2-push it straight horizontal? I guess that wouldn't be an arc. But I kinda think that the vertical lift and the horizontal push are at the same time, so the gun describes an arc of sorts? Or not?

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,321 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Distance?
    Contact (hands on/index) distance to 100 yards.

    Techniques?
    Draw
    sight acquisition
    malfunction drills
    reloads
    moving & shooting

    All the above are tasks that should not require conscious thought. No such thing as muscle memory. You must "train the brain" to perform routine tasks without thought.

    This leaves the brain to figure out more important things. Like how to get OUT of the bad situation you somehow stumbled IN.

    If I have to THINK about my draw, I'm already behind the power curve. If I have to THINK about sight alignment and trigger control, I might as well hand them my gun to beat me with. If, upon reaching slide lock, I have to stare stupidly at my gun before realizing its empty.........I might as well insert a new mag and suck start my pistol.

    I should address the threat instinctively and immediately while at the same time, assessing the situation and looking for ways to better my standing there in. My gun should be an extension of my hand. If it's not............make it so!

    Exactly that. ^^^

    I am also not a fan of the phrase "muscle memory." Muscles don't have memory. They just do what they are told. The phrase I use instead is reflexive action. The only way an action becomes reflexive is by doing it over and over. They say 1500-2000 repetitions is about what it takes before an action becomes reflexive. And even then, it is perishable and must be maintained. I'd venture to say that most people, including a lot of law enforcement and miltary, are not up at the level they should be. Most people don't have the time or especially the money it takes to pratice to this level. Luckily, most of this can be practiced at home without firing a shot. Shooting while moving and shooting moving targets are a bit more difficult to practice, especially since most shooting ranges won't allow it.

    Ever switch vehicles, getting into a different vehicle that has the shifter in a different location, and find yourself grabbing for a shifter that's not there? You've conditioned yourself so that your brain recognizes a set of circumstances and reacts with an action that is paired with the set of circumstances. There is no conscious thought and you don't realize it until after you've done it and realize you look silly pawing at the air for a shifter that's not there. We can say the same thing about starting the vehicle. After you've driven your car for a while you can hop in it, stick the key in the ignition and fire it up without having to fumble, look for the slot and watch the key go in, tell yourself to turn it.... Get in a car you've never driven that has a different setup, and you find yourself fumbling to get the key in to start the car. A very simple action, but witout practice it requires thought and process time. One more example I see regularly; My dad drives a diesel pickup that requires him to turn the key to the on position and leave it for a few seconds to allow the glow plugs to warm up. He has conditioned himself to get in the truck, turn the key to the on position, then put his seatbelt on. By the time he's got his seatbelt on, he can start the truck. Every time he gets in my gas powered truck, he does the exact same thing without giving it a thought.

    For those that carry a gun regularly, also realize that every time you pull the gun from the holster or place it in the holster, you are conditioning yourself. If you remove your gun from your holster every evening and place it in the nightstand or gunsafe, you are practicing your draw every time you do that and you are creating a conditioned response. Draw it like you mean it........but do so safely, of course, and realize that you are conditioning yourself more than you think.
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    Here's a pretty good rundown of a "defensive draw stroke".

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e96fag5y138


    Regarding the distance you should practice......you're responsible for every bullet you put downrange. Despite what Sam (who admittedly, VERY RARELY carries a gun, and then it's usually a pocket rocket) likes to say, there's no such thing as a "typical" SD shooting. Having to shoot another human being, in defense of yourself or others, is still a fairly atypical event.

    Sure, you might be at a stoplight, and the guy is inches away.....or you might be in the next Westgate Mall (which IMO, is a when, not if) and have to take a shot across a food court. If there's a dude 80 yards away about to walk into the store front of a Toys 'R Us, you're probably going to want to take that shot right-friggin-now, and not wait until you've closed the distance to your "typical" SD range.

    The most important thing to remember about an SD situation is that no one has ANY idea how it's going to play out, before it happens.
  • bruchibruchi Senior Member Posts: 2,582 Senior Member
    I am from the school where you start close but GROW from there, once you start to make as routine smallish groups at a close distance, perhaps when you can cover all holes.with your fist, MOVE THE TARGET FARTHER AWAY so you have to make an effort and keep this up, yes the FBI says that most shootings occur at closer distances but your "close target accuracy" will diminish greatly under the stress of a serious self defense situation.

    Sent from my SGH-T999L using Tapatalk 2
    If this post is non welcomed, I can always give you a recipe for making "tostones".
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,564 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    By "arc" I was being flowery. I really should have simply said "draw pathway" -- but thinking about it, let's say you've got a standard side holster. You draw slightly to the rear and mostly upward, the muzzle is still pointing down, correct? So then during the action of bringing that muzzle to point at the target, the barrel changes from vertical to horizontal, correct? Isn't that a sort of "arc", a 90 deg tilt of the barrel? And you also bring your gun hand forward from your siide, so that the gun hand is thrust more in front of you -- it doesn't remain at your side but is brought forward, correct? Isn't that an arc too? Or some sort of curve? I mean, aren't you lifting the pistol vertically and moving it forward at the same time? Or, do you instead 1-lift it straight vertical, then 2-push it straight horizontal? I guess that wouldn't be an arc. But I kinda think that the vertical lift and the horizontal push are at the same time, so the gun describes an arc of sorts? Or not?

    Straight up / index muzzle to threat / straight out

    As the sexy guy and the girl from MO so described.

    The video was pretty good, except for the return to holster. I use both the defensive and the competition draw he described.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,564 Senior Member
    Jay has good points as well.

    :thumbup:
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,461 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    Distance? If you're doing some fun target shooting and want to work on distances, by all means, as Z says, 100yds.

    However, if you're ONLY practicing self defense, I maintain that 100yds is much too far for any reasonable self defense distance. The vast majority of SD shoots occur almost within reach, or a bit further, like 20 feet.

    Do you know where a threat is going to come from? I dont, so I shoot any handgun that I intend to carry to as far out as I am able or is practical. At 100, I have a real good chance of hitting a man sized target with either a 1911 or BHP. At that range the bullet is plenty effective. The rat gun? I need to play with it more before it goes past 25, but I think if I can get 50 out of it without to much problem.

    So I am with Z. Close as you want, to as far as you can. If you baseline at 25 yds for your slow fire, you will get to know what you can do. If you can do it at 25, you can do it at 5.

    The following is my opinion and worth everything you paid for it.

    That said, long before you start clearing leather with a hot chamber, you should learn to shoot. Shoot for bullseyes, shoot slowly, concentrate on your trigger and sights, learn your grip. 25 yds, 4-6 in bullseyes. A SR-1c (look to the web to find a printable) will work.
    Take a 6 oclock hold, because you can see the bull better for a better sight picture. If your handgun is regulated to make holes where it is pointed, you should get holes just under the black. FYI, where the holes land means squat, as long as they go where you want them to, the target is just gives you a place to aim.

    After you are stacking holes at 25, then you can vary it up because you have built the muscle memory (it has been muscle memory since before any of us was sucking air). When you go to present, it wont feel right unless it is right. Start picking up the pace, and when you feel comfortable, then worry about presentation.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    In both examples the gun does technically arc. But in the first example the arc is tiny.

    I'm totally fine with that. My whole intent was to try to duplicate the "movement" or "pattern" of the full draw-to-fire action and overlap it with a slice of that, the portion that's allowed at the range. The term "arc" was just a way I described it here, and in fact, wasn't even in the published NRA article.

    I'm totally fine with the various specific techniques for drawing and firing and please select the ones that you prefer. That wasn't the point of my "overlap" idea anyway, a certain draw-fire movement. 'kay?

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Eli wrote: »
    If there's a dude 80 yards away about to walk into the store front of a Toys 'R Us, you're probably going to want to take that shot right-friggin-now, and not wait until you've closed the distance to your "typical" SD range.

    I agree with everything but this. Were I a LEO, sure. But I'm a private citizen who's carrying only for self defense. The operative phrase here is "self defense" and the perp (how do I know who the perp is?) is headed away from me. My legal right to CCW is now over, as I'm not defending myself or my girlfriend next to me, etc. Nobody signed me up and the only badge I carry is the one I bought online that says "Licensed Weapon" (kidding!)

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    That said, long before you start clearing leather with a hot chamber, you should learn to shoot. Shoot for bullseyes, shoot slowly, concentrate on your trigger and sights, learn your grip. 25 yds, 4-6 in bullseyes. A SR-1c (look to the web to find a printable) will work.
    Take a 6 oclock hold, because you can see the bull better for a better sight picture. If your handgun is regulated to make holes where it is pointed, you should get holes just under the black. FYI, where the holes land means squat, as long as they go where you want them to, the target is just gives you a place to aim.

    After you are stacking holes at 25, then you can vary it up because you have built the muscle memory (it has been muscle memory since before any of us was sucking air). When you go to present, it wont feel right unless it is right. Start picking up the pace, and when you feel comfortable, then worry about presentation.

    Absolutely correct, great advice!

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Distance?
    Contact (hands on/index) distance to 100 yards.

    My only objection and I am a bit of a maverick on this, so understand if what I say isn't the majority opinion...

    Understand I'm ONLY talking about legitimate self defense. That is, you are threatened by physical attack or deadly threat such as you feel legally and morally within your rights to effect a lethal response.

    This is very serious stuff here. Hint: NEVER tell the cops or anybody else "I always shoot to kill" or similar dumb statements, trouble awaits. But, in your mind, you MUST be ready to use lethal force. You must be ready, morally and legally and training-wise, to take a life because you do NOT shoot to wound or scare. You fire center mass and you must expect the results to be lethal. No kidding around here. Life and death.

    Okay... my take on this and it's not as I say the majority opinion... I personally avoid practicing any serious self defense shooting beyond, oh, 40 feet. Why? Because it's simply unlikely that a genuine lethal threat will come to you from distance beyond "up close and personal".

    Now I'm a pretty good pistol shot and always have been. And I think it's great fun and good competition to practice longer range shooting. But I avoid that longer distance practice when I'm "hunkering down" and working on a silhouette target and trying for fast and repeated hits to center or the head.

    Because I simply don't want my previous long distance practice to get me into the habit of trying to shoot at a person who's not actually a direct threat to me. And if I practiced SD shooting at greater distance, I might be "lured" into firing when I wasn't actually in danger. Which could get me into trouble.

    I've personally been in a few near-shoot situations in my life and they have ALL occurred at 25 feet or closer. Not because that's where I practice but that's where the threat began. Further away, the guy wasn't a threat. It escalated when he approached (or was already nearby) and went from there.

    My 2 cents and only my opinion. Those of you who have had real world experience (either yourself or a genuine honest story) about citizen self defense (not LEO, not military, etc) at longer distances, please feel free to post your dissent. All I'm saying is that genuine, real world armed self defense just doesn't happen at 100 yards.

    And yeah, I know the idea, if you practice at longer distance you'll be better for close in. That makes sense but only out to the quick/point/shoot ranges of oh, 30-40 feet or shorter. Shooting for self defense practice (not for target practice fun) at longer distances, you go into a totally different sort of stance, aim, steady, fire. Which is fine for that longer distance, but is in my book distracting if you're trying to become proficient with quick-shoot technique for real self defense distances. Just one guy's opinion.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    I agree with everything but this. Were I a LEO, sure. But I'm a private citizen who's carrying only for self defense. The operative phrase here is "self defense" and the perp (how do I know who the perp is?)

    Hmmm, at Columbine it was the two kids murdering the people hiding under tables. At Virginia Tech it was the guy murdering the students in their classrooms, at Aurora it was the guy in body armor shooting up a dark theater, at the recent Westgate Mall it was the group of guys that were shooting, stabbing, and mutilating women and children. If you can't figure out who the "perp" is, you're right, you probably shouldn't get involved........in anything.
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    SamW wrote:

    Okay... my take on this and it's not as I say the majority opinion... I personally avoid practicing any serious self defense shooting beyond, oh, 40 feet. Why? Because it's simply unlikely that a genuine lethal threat will come to you from distance beyond "up close and personal".

    Now I'm a pretty good pistol shot and always have been. And I think it's great fun and good competition to practice longer range shooting. But I avoid that longer distance practice when I'm "hunkering down" and working on a silhouette target and trying for fast and repeated hits to center or the head.

    Because I simply don't want my previous long distance practice to get me into the habit of trying to shoot at a person who's not actually a direct threat to me. And if I practiced SD shooting at greater distance, I might be "lured" into firing when I wasn't actually in danger. Which could get me into trouble.

    What? Just, what?! :uhm:

    SamW wrote:

    My 2 cents and only my opinion. Those of you who have had real world experience (either yourself or a genuine honest story) about citizen self defense (not LEO, not military, etc) at longer distances, please feel free to post your dissent.

    It's BEEN posted Sam, pretty much EVERY SINGLE THREAT that you get involved in regarding self defense distance, you spew forth you theory, ask people to prove you wrong, people post multiple stories of self defense shots being taken at extended ranges.......and you promptly ignore them, or some how attempt to spin it so "those don't count".

    SamW wrote:
    All I'm saying is that genuine, real world armed self defense just doesn't happen at 100 yards.

    Once again, you're wrong.

    SamW wrote:

    And yeah, I know the idea, if you practice at longer distance you'll be better for close in. That makes sense but only out to the quick/point/shoot ranges of oh, 30-40 feet or shorter. Shooting for self defense practice (not for target practice fun) at longer distances, you go into a totally different sort of stance, aim, steady, fire. Which is fine for that longer distance, but is in my book distracting if you're trying to become proficient with quick-shoot technique for real self defense distances.


    Once again.....

    What? Just, what?! :uhm:
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,588 Senior Member
    I've started using a set of targets with 5 target areas arranged in an X each about 6" wide by 8" (center might be 2"x3") tall approximately simulating the vital zone. My most common distance is 10yrds but I'll occasionally shot at 7yds if I'm either trying out a new pistol and need to get dialed in or practicing certain rapid fire drills. I also will do more slow fire stuff at 15, 20, and 25yds. The multiple target zones is great for practicing transitions (not ideal due to short distance between targets, but still allows me to work on moving the sights around rapidly and following the front sight. The size of the targets it about perfect for me. If I'm getting them outside the zone then I know I need to slow down or do a better job of concentrating on my fundamentals. If I'm getting them all in the center section I can speed up a bit or move the target back a bit.

    In addition to range time I try to get to as many idpa matches as I can (which isn't many, but still better than none) which adds shooting under stress, drawing, reloading, moving, malfunction clearing (inevitable if you shoot enough matches), and to at least a small degree tactics (use of cover and target identification w/ shoot vs. no shoot targets). It's a long way from perfect, but it's a lot better than stationary slow fire at fixed target.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,321 Senior Member
    The following is my opinion and worth everything you paid for it.

    That said, long before you start clearing leather with a hot chamber, you should learn to shoot. Shoot for bullseyes, shoot slowly, concentrate on your trigger and sights, learn your grip. 25 yds, 4-6 in bullseyes. A SR-1c (look to the web to find a printable) will work.
    Take a 6 oclock hold, because you can see the bull better for a better sight picture. If your handgun is regulated to make holes where it is pointed, you should get holes just under the black. FYI, where the holes land means squat, as long as they go where you want them to, the target is just gives you a place to aim.

    After you are stacking holes at 25, then you can vary it up because you have built the muscle memory (it has been muscle memory since before any of us was sucking air). When you go to present, it wont feel right unless it is right. Start picking up the pace, and when you feel comfortable, then worry about presentation.

    You prefaced this clearly stating that it is your opinion. I'll do the same. This is mine, and it is not inteded to discredit yours. Just adding a few more ingredients to the pot....

    I agree that gun safety and safe gun handling and a good understanding of how a gun functions are required before learning to draw a gun from a holster. But I don't necissarily think learning to shoot is required before learning to draw. I actually have seen good results when the draw is taught long before a live round is fired. The grip starts before the gun leaves the holster. If I subscribe to the theory of a 5 step presentation, 1 being the grip and 5 being the trigger press, then I create a response that is reflexive and incorporates the steps into one smooth movement. Grip, rock and lock, grab, sights, press. This is the basics of the defensive reflexive movement that has to be built and maintained. Then we have malfunctions, reloads, threat ID, shoot-don't shoot, movement, low light/flashlight techniques.....and the list goes on.

    I also think that somebody who's routinely hitting bullseyes on a SR-1C target or stacking holes at 25 yards, is a marksman with a handgun and definitely knows enough about how to shoot. Being able to do that demonstrates great fundamentals of marksmanship. But that is not a good indicator of the level of one's defensive pistol skills and that level of skill is definitely not required before learning to draw and fire, IMO.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Eli wrote: »
    It's BEEN posted Sam, pretty much EVERY SINGLE THREAT that you get involved in regarding self defense distance, you spew forth you theory, ask people to prove you wrong, people post multiple stories of self defense shots being taken at extended ranges.......and you promptly ignore them, or some how attempt to spin it so "those don't count".

    I kind of don't remember those, actually. Can you remember one or two of them to refresh my memory? Those involving civilians, not LEOs or other "official" people. I'm not kidding, I actually do not remember any such "extended range" personal defense stories. Honest.

    Thanks. And sorry I don't have any cute cartoons to post.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Jay, I have total agreement with that last post. Knowing how to punch holes in paper does not mean that the person is qualified for adequate self defense. Absolutely true.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,788 Senior Member
    All of this is plan "C".

    For most of use there should be plan "A" first, then plan "B", and as a last resort plan "C"

    A. Escape the danger. Plan A should be foremost and trained into everyone's training routine. If there is no need to confront the danger, get out. Take your gun, your cell phone and your loved ones to safety then dial 911.

    B. Shelter in a safe place with your gun and family. Call the police and have your gun and family with you in a secure location.

    C. Confront the danger. While most of us have it in our minds that "we are the danger" , the reality is if you have to confront an armed perp or more than one, you are placing your life and others at risk. This should be last resort.

    I think most people would be better served training and practicing plans A and B, before C.

    IMHO

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    BigDanS wrote: »
    All of this is plan "C".

    For most of use there should be plan "A" first, then plan "B", and as a last resort plan "C"
    etc
    D

    Well.... okay, with the following caveats... I agree that sometimes, some people (I know a guy this way), having that CHL is like he was now Deppity Dawg, in charge and ready to act to save the world. Duh.

    Whereas we all know it does not legally or, more important, morally confer on you any special rights to armed defense except that lone aspect of being able to have that gun on you.

    So getting the "big head" about a CHL is inviting real trouble, legally and tactically.

    That being said, we are under no obligation to retreat, "run away", hide, or otherwise "escape" from trouble. Sometimes that's not the better decision. Many times it is. Which is why we all know it's not the mechanical ability to shoot at paper targets quickly and accurately, but it is the overall ability to DEAL with a serious threat with intelligence and good common sense. Which may at times mean exiting the scene.

    Except that there are times you just have to do something, or else be yet another mute witness, like the famous Kitty Genovese assault. That early Saturday morning (4am) when my girlfriend and I were wakened by screams, female screams, and we saw a woman lying on the pavement just across from our house, being beaten and stomped by two men, yes, we called 911. But then, yes, I also took my Maglite and 1911 and went outside to stop the assault till the cops showed. And I ran the guys off.

    And yeah, here were two felons fleeing the scene of an assault. But my CHL didn't confer upon me LEO status, either. I was not under attack nor did I feel threatened. That crisis was past as they decided to turn and run rather than come for me. So no, I didn't backshoot them either. And yes, one of the cops who took my statement opined that I shoulda shot them both. I smiled and said that wasn't my job. Soon as I kept the woman from being hurt any more, I was square with things.

    Your ABC warnings are however very instructive. They really point to the big picture that we all need to look for, that any potential self defense situation is mostly about the circumstances and the surrounding actions and environment, and very little about the actual gunfire. Or so we hope.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Thinking overnight about there being other instances of longer distance shooting for self defense, I do now seem to remember one scenario that was described, where a guy with a ranch or farm had to defend his property by shooting it out with baddies in his barn or other outbuildings? Something like that?

    Anybody remember this or have some link to a story that's similar? Thanks, I'll start a thread to ask for more. Trying to play fair here.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 6,945 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    And yeah, I know the idea, if you practice at longer distance you'll be better for close in. That makes sense but only out to the quick/point/shoot ranges of oh, 30-40 feet or shorter. Shooting for self defense practice (not for target practice fun) at longer distances, you go into a totally different sort of stance, aim, steady, fire. Which is fine for that longer distance, but is in my book distracting if you're trying to become proficient with quick-shoot technique for real self defense distances.

    WOW! I'll file that with the earth is flat and located at the center of the solar system.

    Seriously, I do run into this mindset a lot. 95% of the time it is put forth by someone who is barely able to hit anything beyond ten yards. While they state they are coming from the "Realistically, it is going to happen within this distance" camp, in actuality they are coming from the "Rather than challenge myself to improve my questionable abilities, I'll stroke my own ego and convince myself I'm really a good shot by only shooting at targets that are within my meager abilities. Better still, no one else will see that I suck" camp.

    When the rubber meets the road, this thinking fails in several areas:

    1. By preparing only for the average, you yourself become average. First off, do you want to be a C-student in the course material that can save your life? Secondly, this leaves you with nothing but basic math when you find yourself in the one situation that requires algebra.

    2. Adrenaline is a funny drug that takes all of your failings and magnifies them. Figure at a minimum your group size will double and your effective range will get halved. If you're feeling all sexy about your ability to solve the problem at 10 yards, it's very likely that you're really only good for 5.

    3. Regardless of the distance, the possibility exists that you may someday have to thread a needle. This could be because of non-combatants in the immediate area, or simply because the threat needs to be stopped R.F.N. Doggedly plugging away at the center of a Godzilla-sized B27 target at 20 feet will not help you with this.
    samzhere wrote: »
    Shooting for self defense practice (not for target practice fun) at longer distances, you go into a totally different sort of stance, aim, steady, fire. Which is fine for that longer distance, but is in my book distracting if you're trying to become proficient with quick-shoot technique for real self defense distances.

    Here is where I believe your thinking is flawed - you don't NEED to change anything at longer distance besides increasing your attention to the fundamentals. You seem to be operating under the assumption that for anything over 50 feet, we go into a one-handed, bladed, NRA Bullseye stance and throw all our combat techniques out the window. Nope. All we are doing with distance is getting a clearer picture of what elements of our technique are less than perfect, thereby allowing us to improve, thus reducing our cone of dispersion at ANY distance. Practicing only at shorter distances does not always allow these errors to be seen, and if you don't know there's an error, you won't work to correct it.

    In a nutshell, if you leave the range feeling totally confident in your abilities, you're probably in the ego-stroking camp. You should be left with at least one item of "I really suck at __________" that burns a hole in your mind until the next time you train.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 6,243 Senior Member
    Well, the wasp was first spotted at 20 yards and I got into my Beaver stance. Then, when he closed that distance, my stance went to hell and so did my fundamentals.

    I should have followed the mantra, train the way you fight and fight the way you train. If i had kept my Beaver stance in CQ and remembered my fundamentals, my head wouldn't have become a casualty.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Well, Big, I didn't insult you as you did me, but that's okay. I was stating my opinion and I clearly said so. I however didn't feel your psychic probes nudging around inside my brain, so you can tell what I'm thinking. Great psychic powers however, kudos on that.

    In fact I did NOT think... "I won't challenge myself... etc", but I DID actually think "This won't happen at greater distance" So please turn in your psychic mindmeld gear or check the batteries. Strangely enough, I do know what I'm thinking. You however do not. You'll notice that I never made any attempts to mindread anybody, just spoke clearly as to the "longer shoot" concept, which I think was fairly set forth in my post. I just don't agree with it, is all.

    I'm clearly in the minority here, choosing to practice self defense shooting at distances of 40-50 feet or less, mostly 25 feet or less. I was quite clear why I do this and also quite clear that my view was not ascribed to by most people. So be it. I'm okay with being told "Your concept is incorrect". I'm not however okay with someone trying to tell me what I'm thinking which is in fact contrary to what I actually do think. Disagree with my philosophy, keen, be my guest. Don't however try to pretend that you know what I'm thinking, and that my real reason for not practicing longer self defense distance is that my ego would be bruised or similar. Because, pal, it's simply not true. 'kay?

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • gatorgator Senior Member Posts: 1,689 Senior Member
    Sam,
    I mostly stay out of these arguments because I don't profess to be an expert in the art of SD/HD, but you come across as the one and only person on the board that knows what is best for all.
    Then you get all head up when someone disagrees with you, someone who just might know more about the subject at hand than you do.
    I really do not think anyone here gives a rats behind how you or anyone else here chooses to practice but when you come out point blank and tell them that they are wrong well........what do you expect?
    USMC 80-84
    -96 lbs
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