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Shutdown over, AKA GOP caved

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  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    I say it's time to throw ALL the bums out and start over again!

    Agree with you for the most part. I do think that a few of them, particularly Ted Cruz, set a tone that will be used again in the future.

    No, Cruz didn't get the defunding of Obamacare that he wanted, but anybody with half a brain (that includes me for certain) knew that eventually the filibuster wouldn't produce the defunding. But it did get plenty of attention to Cruz, and he stayed on message and kept to his promises.

    I tend to think that his plans are long term, and twofold...

    1-
    To establish a "core" conservative group that will be the voice for the Teaparty and for other conservative goals for the next few years. No, they didn't win. Conservatives are in the minority in congress and that's how it will be for a few years. But to establish a solid base and to not be shaken? That's a good thing. Yes the press hates them but the press hates conservatives anyway. And yes the polls are probably accurate that most voters disagreed with Cruz. He knew that would happen. But what he said and what he stuck with will be remembered later, "I told you so".

    And as time goes on, more and more voters will become persuaded. Thing is Cruz DID get covered and was not ignored. He was on all the network shows and he did a great job defending his policies and never got crazy or off message. He was sharp all the way through.

    Now, some will say, "It doesn't matter, voters are too dumb to wake up" and so on. And they may be right, but at LEAST we have a few representatives who did what they promised to do and what they were elected to do. They may sadly remain in the minority for years and the pendulum may not swing quickly. But at least Cruz and others TRIED. And they did so honorably.

    I watched the NBC/CBS/etc news carefully (I already know what conservative news will say) and if you noticed, the interviewers were totally unable to shake Cruz or trip him up or make him look silly. Sure, some of the MSNBC jerks said all sorts of things "behind his back" but the regular mainstream news reports were unable to impugn Cruz. Commentators may have disagreed with him but their interviews were "forced" to be polite and straightforward, because Cruz is too smart to get caught (like unfortunately Rick Perry does, for example). The commentators on the main network shows were completely unable to insult or weaken Cruz. All they were able to do was disagree with his policies, and Cruz therefore established a dialogue and a solid position. He came across very well, even when he was disagreed with.

    2-
    Cruz is buttering his own bread. He wants to be the 2016 presidential nominee, that much is clear. And he will be a genuine conservative who will be the anchor for conservative values.

    Bottom line, IF the electorate is hopelessly skewed to liberal for the foreseeable future, then that's how it will be -- conservatives will continue to be in the minority and that will continue until people eventually change their minds. And much as we might gripe or complain or want the other results, we've got to appreciate that what we conservatives believe may simply not be the way things turn out for a while. Wishing won't make it so, nor will protest votes, or protesting by not voting. If the general electorate is too mind-numbed to see the truth, all we can do is keep trying, at at the same time, protect our personal and family lives and wait till the coin turns over.

    But in the meantime, we DO have some real conservatives who will carry the torch for us. Cruz and Jindal, and others.

    And what we've really really got to do is to support smart, conservative candidates for primaries and get them nominated and then elected, essentially taking back the Republican party.

    And those of you who are dissatisfied with the Republican party, remember that it's YOUR party to change as you wish. Imagine if we sent 20 Cruz-type conservatives to the Senate next time.

    But if you can effect governmental change by electing 3rd party candidates, please feel free to go ahead and do so. I'm of the opinion that 3rd party candidates are almost always unelectable and for them to do anything such as go to congress and make changes, they first must win the election. If you can send 20 independent conservatives or libertarians to the Senate and they will vote for conservative values, I'm happy. But to do so, they first have to be elected, and all I'm saying is that in the primary, we nominate conservatives to the Republican side and then win the election, thereby restructuring the Republican party as WE want it to be.

    However that conservatives can be elected and sent to DC, I'm happy, be they within the "newly conservative structured" Republican party or independent or libertarian, makes no diff, just so long as they're elected.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Yep. There weren't enough there this time, but we have to support the ones that are there and get some more of them in. We need to keep it up and either one of two things will happen-- A) They completely take over the Republican party, or B) They are strong enough to split off into a serious 3rd party.

    Totally agree. I'm happy if a 3rd party can win elections and send conservatives to DC. Keen. Some here may think I automatically reject libertarian or independent candidates, but that's not true. If the candidate is conservative and can be elected, sign me up.

    It's just that I don't see 3rd party candidates as winning statewide elections, and therefore I think that drilling from within, taking back OUR Republican party and sending the countryclubbers home is lots more doable. Cruz is a perfect example, his moderate, status quo Republican opponent in the primary outspent Cruz about 10:1 and "experts" said Cruz had no chance. He blew the other guy away. And mind you, his opponent was a decent guy, honest, had a pretty good track record and so on, except that he was a countryclubber. After Cruz won the nomination, "experts" again said he'd lose the general election. He won by a huge margin.

    jerm says it clearly: "strong enough to [be] a serious 3rd party" and if this can be done, great! But the absolute bottom line is to ELECT conservatives by whatever means, and if 3rd party can do it, be my guest. It's just that I think that internal Republican takeover is faster and easier. Whatever works.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    The whacky fringes of both sides turn me off. My politics usually fall on a conservative ticket, but not always. I'll vote AC/DC if I feel like it :tooth:

    Smart and correct, Big. Let's however not automatically equate Teaparty with whacky fringe. This is falling into the liberal media trap that labeled the entire WW2 Vet protest as "racist" because one jerk had a Confederate Battle Flag. And yeah, that guy has his rights but he should have realized that he would be labeled.

    Sure, there are some whackos in the Teapart but you can be a total Teapartier and still be a solid, reasonable conservative. In our little Teaparty meetings here, we've politely and carefully shut out the loons and kept our focus.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    Lamar Alexander, the Tennessee RINO, sponsored the dam pork-barrel project also. He really needs to be put out to pasture, and I'll be campaigning for his opponent in the Republican primary!
    Jerry

    Absolutely! Get behind a good conservative and get him/her nominated.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,132 Senior Member
    I think what will be interesting is how hard Democrats were forced to defend the turd that is called Obamacare. If there was any doubt that they didn't own that thing, there is no question now. They wouldn't even back down from the stuff that they themselves acknowledge is stupid like the medical device tax. I think that they just backed themselves into a corner that they will have no way of getting out. They wouldn't be in that position if we had only "get along" Republicans. It took the Tea Party people to force them into that position.

    Obamacare so far has been awful and I don't see it getting better. Democrats chained themselves to that sinking ship. I honestly don't see how they can get themselves out of the pickle that they are in.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    The Republican old guard is sort of like the NRA- - - -get too cozy with the opposition, and they become ineffective. The Tea Party bunch is sort of like the GOA and other one-issue lobbying groups- - - -not afraid to stir the pot and let the stink get overwhelming. That's not necessarily a bad thing, if it gets the fence-sitters off their butts and makes them jump one way or another.
    Jerry
  • 5280 shooter II5280 shooter II Senior Member Posts: 3,923 Senior Member
    This county could use a bit more stink raising..........it's like when you ride and smell the manure in the air around the farms.........**** makes things grow strong.....too much or the wrong **** is detrimental to growth.
    God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    I think what will be interesting is how hard Democrats were forced to defend the turd that is called Obamacare. etc.

    Jerm, a great focus on the situation. I've seen mainstream news stories about the problems with the website and even after that gets fixed (before Christmas I think, ha ha), the huge deductibles and the outright lies told (keep your own doctor, save a thousand bucks, etc) will be revealed. There's NO way the Regime can prevent this info from coming out because it's way that the obamacare law is written.

    I believe that Cruz's true objective was to establish a groundwork from which to "detune" Obamacare (he knew that defunding it won't happen). But as with all political campaigns, you set your goals high, knowing that compromise will follow, and you'll get 1/3 of what you asked for. That hasn't happened yet but as you say, the whole Obamacare thing will collapse and then people like Cruz who've led the fight will be the ones setting the changes.
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,806 Senior Member
    Rubio is one of my Senators, but I sure would like to have someone like Ted Cruz.. I totally admire what he did.
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • 5280 shooter II5280 shooter II Senior Member Posts: 3,923 Senior Member
    Anyone want to remember this?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIoKr9VDg3A

    If you're wondering...........I like the songs of the past as someone put a message into the lyrics, and they are as pertinent today as they were years ago.
    God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    I think Ted Cruz's goal is to take back the Republican Party for conservatives. No doubt, he has presidential ambitions, but then, so did Ronald Reagan.

    For this socialist machine that the Democrat Party has become to be defeated, and for our remaining freedoms to be saved, it will require a President who can bully both houses of Congress into actually addressing and solving some very serious problems. That will require a Republican majority, because the Democrats of today have no intention of ever again debating an issue on its merits. They have perfected the science of character assassination and have succeeded in creating a propaganda machine that Joseph Goebbels would marvel at.

    Cruz doesn't command that type of support in the Senate, yet, but he has a big chunk of the Republican 'base' listening to him and they know he is telling them the truth. The only question (to me) is whether he can survive the attacks from the Democrats and the Republican establishment. He knows the issues, inside and out, and has too much debating experience for anyone to challenge head-on, so he must be destroyed using the tried and trued methods of the Democrat Party.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    I don't think Ted Cruz will ever get elected to be president. He will be a voice (like Sarah Palin) and have some influence, but unless Madame President Hillary Clinton sounds good to you the republican party will have to put up a candidate who appeals to voters not stuck on far right conservatism. That includes moderates/swing voters (from both sides) and independents.

    I wouldn't hang my voting shingle on his Tea Party roof because it's very unlikely he has enough widespread support to win if they nominate him.

    We either will have to field a moderate candidate who has a chance to win or face the distasteful alternative.

    Ted Cruz is eligible to run, he mother is a US citizen his father Cuban and he was born while his father was working in Canada. He said he would forfeit his dual (Canadian part) citizenship, if indeed he has it.

    He has some good idys and seems a good fellow, but not the one I' d support in the primaries knowing it would probably be just another "Statement" vote.

    A resurrected Barry Goldwater would do about as good as Cruz these days in the elections. Sorry to rain on some of y'all s parade of hopes for a Tea Party conservative to get elected, but I'm being a realist here.

    It is still a ways off and anything can and sometimes does happen in politics, so the political landscape may be very different from what we see today come 2016.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    Your reasoning is flawed Chief, in that your idea will once again result in the Democrats and the media picking the Republican they want to run against. It's worked twice, now, and Christie or someone just as bad will be the result. I've listened to those type arguments for years, but I now think it is time to "choose which hill to die on," and Obamacare, immigration, and the economy are it.

    We are circling the drain, and it is now the time to "root hog, or die."
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    The RINO's have run a "Dummycrap Lite" candidate twice, and got soundly trounced both times. It's time for a major bloodletting in 2014, and a hard right candidate in 2016. The alternative solution does not involve an election, and it's becoming more of a reality every time the RINO's cave in and become the "Go along to get along" crowd!
    Jerry
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    Your reasoning is flawed Chief, in that your idea will once again result in the Democrats and the media picking the Republican they want to run against. It's worked twice, now, and Christie or someone just as bad will be the result. I've listened to those type arguments for years, but I now think it is time to "choose which hill to die on," and Obamacare, immigration, and the economy are it.

    We are circling the drain, and it is now the time to "root hog, or die."

    Tell me how you expect Ted Cruz to win? I think the Dems would welcome him more than a moderate/RHINO like fat boy because they know they can stomp him with huge "Entitlement' voting blocks in the major population centers.

    Cruz and more like him in the Senate and then a Republican president who can get elected will be the best bet because then the moderate Prez will have to listen or start out if he is elected being a "Lame Duck".

    BTW..this is gonna be fun..football don't start fer a few hours....
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 11,383 Senior Member
    horselips wrote: »
    What did you expect? Senators and Representatives are also federal workers. Naturally, their only loyalty is to their fellow federal workers. And since they have access to all of everybody else's money, and if they run out of that they can borrow tons more in your name, or, they can just print all they want, an extra 2 week paid vacation for their buds was an easy call. If you're not a federal worker and you get furloughed for any reason...don't ask - you're on your own - welcome to the real world. Federal workers are as exempt from the uncertainties of life as Congress is exempt from the laws they pass.


    I believe you do not truly understand how Government employment works.
    Those bozos in office have frozen our pay for almost 4 years now, changed our retirement, cut our numbers and more all while giving themselves raises, taking vacations while not having a budget for mmm 5 years now. Elected officials are not Gov. Workers friends or even close to the same. I wish more Americans would/could understand how out of control our elected officials have become and vote with the knowledge they learn.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    One thing we can all agree on is what a sad state of affairs our GOVT has gotten our once respected/admired/feared/righteous country into.

    God Bless America :angel2: :usa::usa::usa::usa:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    Tell me how you expect Ted Cruz to win? I think the Dems would welcome him more than a moderate/RHINO like fat boy because they know they can stomp him with huge "Entitlement' voting blocks in the major population centers.

    Cruz and more like him in the Senate and then a Republican president who can get elected will be the best bet because then the moderate Prez will have to listen or start out if he is elected being a "Lame Duck".

    BTW..this is gonna be fun..football don't start fer a few hours....

    Cruz will be lucky to survive the Republican primary, if he runs, because if the RINOS see they can never get conservatives to back Christie, they'll back the most moderate survivor, probably Rubio, since they sucked him into their amnesty surrender to Schumer, et al. I'd take Cruz or Rand Paul, and hope they could suck in Libertarians and a few disenchanted Democrats, who will by then probably know how bad they got screwed with Obamacare.

    The point is that it's high time somebody has the balls to stand up and fight for the remaining American freedoms that the RINOS are happily letting the leftists flush down the socialist toilet. Cruz may not be the answer, in the end, but he will do for 'starters.' And if Louis Gohmert can be talked into running for John Cornyn's Texas Senate seat, we may send the US Senate another genuine conservative. He would have to overcome a 6 million dollar war chest that Cornyn already has, but hell, Cruz managed it against his RINO opponent.

    And...why would you think Democrats would be gleeful to run against Cruz? He will debate them to a standstill, with the gloves off, and they cannot win on the issues. Why do you think they are using their attack team against him so heavily, now? They are scared to death of any candidate that won't back down when the mud starts flying.
  • 5280 shooter II5280 shooter II Senior Member Posts: 3,923 Senior Member
    I'm thinking, who has the balls to say "let's get back to the basics" Congress and Senate getting their inflated paychecks during a sequestor or shut-down.....gone. National parks.......gone, the state they're in pays for those people and area maintenance. Foreign aid........gone. Fix your own damn problems. It's time for this nation to look at it's bills and pocket book and get with reality.

    There's a tax proposal in Colorado that say "it's only $133 per family that will go to schools and not admin"........and when you see an administrator making $200, 000 a year VS a teacher making $36,000.......well it seems simple to me.....we don't need a new tax, we need to cut the fat out, pure and simple.
    God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Fox news had a discussion about the Tea party/Ted Cruz yesterday. One guest (Sabato?) said the Tea Party has a 25% approval rating among all voters and don't get confused about an overwhelming majority they claim supporting their candidates. They do on conservative media.....Internet blogs/talk radio. Mainstream American's are not on board with the Tea Party's political stance.


    He went on to say if they go with a GOVT shutdown again when the debates continue early next year, the Republicans may end up losing their majority in the House in the mid-term elections.


    Something to think about.


    Wouldn't that suck hind teat if it happened.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 24,867 Senior Member
    Cruz and his ways have killed his chances to be President; just wait he will try and shutdown the Govt in a couple of months.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    Everybody wants to talk about the Tea Party like it was one organization. It is not - it is a 'movement.' It is a grass-roots uprising that has no bosses and there is no particular loyalty to any one person, just because they claim to represent the Tea Party. The Tea Party movement is nothing more than what they used to call 'the silent majority' - except our politics have become so radicalized that they are no longer silent. They are the folks who believe in individual freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution, and small government, basically.

    Don't fall for the media story line - they have to define the Tea Party so they can destroy it, so, as always they define according to whoever they can brand as a nut-job and portray that as the norm. Ted Cruz is the media's current poster boy for the Tea Party, but it was Rand Paul for a while, and it will keep changing, as needed. Looks like it's working well on you two.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,561 Senior Member
    I think that part of the problem with the Tea Party is that some of those who either self-identify with the Tea Party, or those who the media identifies with the Tea Party, can be a bit whacko and bring down the Tea Party due to their association with that group.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Yes, we (NN/me) have been brainwashed :yikes: and need Ted Cruz/Rand Paul to perform a cleansing ritual on us for political purification :tooth: :wink:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 13,093 Senior Member
    I think that part of the problem with the Tea Party is that some of those who either self-identify with the Tea Party, or those who the media identifies with the Tea Party, can be a bit whacko and bring down the Tea Party due to their association with that group.

    A Minnesota Democratic Farmer-Labor convention is the definition of whacko, the media finds the biggest Gomer they can to portray as a Tea Partier and calls it a day.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    Yes, we (NN/me) have been brainwashed :yikes: and need Ted Cruz/Rand Paul to perform a cleansing ritual on us for political purification :tooth: :wink:

    I apologize if my comments were insulting. I just get tired of the Tea Party being portrayed as something it is not. Even Fox News tends to let the establishment type Republicans define them. I'm afraid they are going to find out that a larger number of conservatives exist than they ever dreamed, and that they cannot all be pidgeon-holed into one classification that will vote Republican no matter what.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Not insulted at all.....

    I think the Tea Party has some good idys on a smaller Gooberment and balancing the budget, but just don't see them/their candidate ever getting into the White House. And possibly fielding one on a Independent ticket who will actually be another H. Ross Perot and take votes from a Republican who could have gotten elected.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,806 Senior Member
    It's a shame that this country in general has gotten so far away from the Constitution that people like Ted Cruz, Mike Lee and the TEA party are called extremists and whacko's even by other "Republicans."
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,561 Senior Member
    I believe that what we're seeing is a loyalty to party and political aspirations that trumps loyalty to the country. I think it was Teddy Roosevelt who talked rather disparagingly of that...
    Overkill is underrated.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    I believe that what we're seeing is a loyalty to party and political aspirations that trumps loyalty to the country. I think it was Teddy Roosevelt who talked rather disparagingly of that...

    Yes and BOTH REPS/DEMS are doing it.............I say throw all the bums out and start over!
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
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