9 silly meter for SD

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Replies

  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,233 Senior Member
    Well, given the fact that that round has killed more humans than all other rounds put together, it's kind of a inept term.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • ghostsniper1ghostsniper1 Banned Posts: 2,645 Senior Member
    A 9mm has been killing gangbangers and innocents alike on the street for quite some time. I reckon it will work for me when needed. Someone mentioned hydrostatic shock? Does one even know why it happens when terminal ballistics comes into affect with rounds that are supersonic??? Without googling or going to wikipedia, please tell me if you know. And Btw, to really ruffle feathers...... the hell with big sloooooow .45's lol
  • DurwoodDurwood Senior Member Posts: 970 Senior Member
    I own both .45s and 9 mms. Given advance notice I'd prefer to be armed with one of my 1911's if I'm ever in a serious threat from a two legged predator. OTOH, the Odds are much better that I'll have one of my pocket 9s on me if it ever happens. I've chrono'd loads from my snub nose .38 and while a pocket 9 ain't a .45 it beat the heck out of a .38 Special fired from a snubbie and not too many people consider them inadequate for self defense:roll:


    I've fired thousands upon thousands of rounds into a dirt backstop at my local range. I didn't have to shoot many 230 gr .45s to realize they move more Earth when they hit than 115 gr 9's do... All in a all, I still feel a lot better with a pocket 9 or even a .380 than with nothing---which is likely what I'd have on me if I had only my .45s to carry:deadhorse: ...and don't get my wrong I love 1911s.
    You have the right to your own opinion, but you don't have the right to your own facts:guns:
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,055 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    Well, given the fact that that round has killed more humans than all other rounds put together, it's kind of a inept term.

    Contact shots to the heads of kneeling prisoners or machine gunning folks on the edge of a mass grave with an MP38, doesn't really count for the purposes of this thread...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,055 Senior Member
    Uproar? Really?

    What's life around here without a little uproar...even if we have done it about a bazillion times...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    "So, this uproar got going because it wanted to."

    That is a bit over the top perhaps ?
    More like a hullabaloo if anything.....
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,055 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    "So, this uproar got going because it wanted to."

    That is a bit over the top perhaps ?
    More like a hullabaloo if anything.....

    Or maybe a whooptedoo...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Well a whooptedoo is a sarcastic comment on a lame thing, maybe this all amounts to a General Murmur....

    Murmur murmur murmur....Robble robble robble !!!! Murmur, robble robble murmur murmur robble robble !!!!
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,467 Senior Member
    NN wrote: »
    bobbyrlf3:
    I reviewed this thread and I believe I reported what happened and said I am not carrying it; not that anyone else should or should not. So, this uproar got going because it wanted to.

    Yup, I was clear on that in your OP. It was a couple of things that caught my eye; namely, when you said that it was as good as any other 9mm you've tried, and when you said that the exit hole indicated some expansion. Seems to me like you've done some testing a time or two, which is more than I've done with 9mm, so you probably have a better idea than I do about actual results, much as I would defer to Paul (knitepoet) and Scott (Jayhawker) because they have real-world experience, which I don't. Like my mama always said, "the more you listen, the more you learn".

    In any case, as I've posted here before.............
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,055 Senior Member
    Actually in older parlance a whooptedoo was a gathering of folk for social silliness;as in "we're a havin a whooptedoo over at the Johnsons ternight"....

    could this be a pandemonium?
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • TugarTugar Senior Member Posts: 1,867 Senior Member
    Nothing wrong with the 9mm for SD. I have carried it in the past, and have zero issues with it. European 9mm loadings seem to be hotter for some reason. Wouldn't surprise me a bit to know that most loadings here in the states are a bit downloaded. Adding to that, there are some very small 9mm pistols that could be pocket guns. Something a .45 can't do.

    Pick some good 9mm SD ammo, and the 9mm will do the job. Buffalo Bore makes a +P+ 124 grain JHP that moves out at 1300 fps. That's near 357mag performance.
    Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
    Winston Churchill
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    This has of course been debated a gazillion times before, but of course shot placement is critical in any SD scenario and the 9mm is adequate. That being said, I much prefer the .45acp.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • tv_racin_fantv_racin_fan Senior Member Posts: 617 Senior Member
    I'd still rather have a 22 in my pocket than a 45 on the night stand.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,055 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    This has of course been debated a gazillion times before, but of course shot placement is critical in any SD scenario and the 9mm is adequate. That being said, I much prefer the .45acp.

    As has been said before..."Anything worth shooting is worth shooting.....a lot!"
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    This has of course been debated a gazillion times before, but of course shot placement is critical in any SD scenario and the 9mm is adequate. That being said, I much prefer the .45acp.

    That reminds me of a time I was on My way to physical therapy and before leaving home I toss a S&W M-36 into My jacket pocket, loaded with Musgrave wadcutters, really wimpy stuff, on the way back driving home, a car cuts Me off, and a bunch of teens try to gang up on Me and one of them runs and grabs My medical folder off my dashboard.

    Big mistake, I **** out of the car and draw My S&W and yell " bring back that folder now !!!" which he does and I have them covered and read them the riot act, as an RMP swings in and takes the miscreants into custody.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • cappy54cappy54 Member Posts: 269 Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    Paul has also seen firsthand what 9mm does to humans.

    And non of it pretty, pretty gross perhaps, gross anatomy even !!! :jester:

    The morgue is another place to see evidence of terminal effects of good and poor bullet placement.
    So is the ER of any big city hospital.


    I must agree with you Doc, ER's and the morgue are the best example. This is the very old argument of what is better , as satistics also have shown the .22 lr has dispatch many thru out the years. So what ever suites your fanny. My 2 cnts.
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,803 Senior Member
    I say shoot what you will carry and don't worry about your stopping power unless you are a pro going into harms way every day.

    The police carry .40's or .45's for a reason. Should you? If you can and you are proficient sure.

    80% of people who are shot survive. Why? Poor placement.

    A 9mm is fine in 115 gr hp, 124 gr hp or 147 gr hp if you hit your target in the center mass or head.

    As I write this I am going to pick up a S&W 431 PD ( pictures to follow ) for the wife, that shoots .32 H&R magnums, because she will carry it. And I am confident that in 99.95% of any SD situation she might get in, 1 shot will do the trick to turn the perp around. Will it drop the perp? who knows. Will they run like h_ll... most likely.

    IMHO.

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 2,175 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    I wish you'd come up with a variation on "silly milimeter." It sounds, well, silly.

    Just for you Gene because I know how important it is to you, how about we call it the 9 Milly Meter? :love:

    Jayhawker wrote: »
    Contact shots to the heads of kneeling prisoners or machine gunning folks on the edge of a mass grave with an MP38, doesn't really count for the purposes of this thread...

    That's like asking how much "stopping power" is needed to incapacitate someones who's already stopped! Not much I imagine.
    Tugar wrote: »
    ...
    Pick some good 9mm SD ammo, and the 9mm will do the job. Buffalo Bore makes a +P+ 124 grain JHP that moves out at 1300 fps. That's near 357mag performance.
    Yep, .357 Magnum-ish performance and .357 Magnum-ish recoil and blast to. You can't have something for nothing.
    tennmike wrote: »
    When in doubt, empty the magazine, reload, repeat.
    Absolutely! :applause:
    ...
    Someone mentioned hydrostatic shock? Does one even know why it happens when terminal ballistics comes into affect with rounds that are supersonic???

    Most folks can't agree on a common definition, so how are we to describe it's properties and effects? :tooth:
    Beware of false knowledge -- it is often more dangerous than ignorance.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    I know no one wants to get shot twice in any case.

    However, in the case of so called die hards that do not know they are dead (read mortally wounded, or the walking dead) like Platt and Maddox (SP) in the ill fated FBI felony stop in Miami, those two lived long enough to cause way too much mayhem before expiring to final kill shots.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 2,175 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    I know no one wants to get shot twice in any case.

    However, in the case of so called die hards that do not know they are dead (read mortally wounded, or the walking dead) like Platt and Maddox (SP) in the ill fated FBI felony stop in Miami, those two lived long enough to cause way too much mayhem before expiring to final kill shots.

    Agreed.

    Although, I suspect that modern loadings delivered in the same volume and in the same locations would have gotten the job done.
    Beware of false knowledge -- it is often more dangerous than ignorance.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    "Someone mentioned hydrostatic shock? Does one even know why it happens when terminal ballistics comes into affect with rounds that are supersonic???"

    Because no two shootings are completely the same or uniform, bullets take different paths in the body, may or may not hit or destroy some vital blood vessel or major nerve group.

    Do not depend on hydro-static shock with handgun rounds / velocities!!!
    or any type of shock, shock is a late sign secondary to hypovolemia, or Psychogenic shock as a response to being shot.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Perhaps, but the post mortem indicated they both had fatal wounds.

    I can however personally attest to the old 158 grain RNL of yesteryear being a good example of a particularly abysmal performer when compared to .45 acp Military ball ammo, the Military .38 special FMJ 158 grain being little better than RNL and with less expansion than lead.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    :agree:
    BigDanS wrote: »
    I say shoot what you will carry and don't worry about your stopping power unless you are a pro going into harms way every day.

    The police carry .40's or .45's for a reason. Should you? If you can and you are proficient sure.

    80% of people who are shot survive. Why? Poor placement.

    A 9mm is fine in 115 gr hp, 124 gr hp or 147 gr hp if you hit your target in the center mass or head.

    As I write this I am going to pick up a S&W 431 PD ( pictures to follow ) for the wife, that shoots .32 H&R magnums, because she will carry it. And I am confident that in 99.95% of any SD situation she might get in, 1 shot will do the trick to turn the perp around. Will it drop the perp? who knows. Will they run like h_ll... most likely.

    IMHO.

    D

    :win: :agree:

    So a question begs to be asked, why did so many PDs drop the 9mm if it is so good? Is it just a mediocre caliber for duty carry and OK for CCW. Also, remember lots were allowed to carry +p and +P+ ammo and still decided to go larger or to a near magnum with the .357 SIG (a 9mm bullet pushed fast).

    I won't say I will never use/carry one, but WHY the big change of heart? Is it suitable for all sizes of people/ of hands/females/recoil easily controlled? Is it the best “All Purpose/All Around” caliber available in a semi to be issued to the masses. The Army did, like it or not.:popcorn::popcorn:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,845 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »

    So a question begs to be asked, why did so many PDs drop the 9mm if it is so good?
    Because the FBI said so
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,101 Senior Member
    If you' ll remember, the .40 S&W grew out of the 10mm project for the FBI following the Platt/Maddox firefight in 1986. 9mm ammunition at the time was relatively pitiful, and it was foreseen that it wouldn't get much better.

    Fast-forward to 1990 when the .40 S&W was introduced. Ammunition technology grew by leaps and bounds in those few short years. Makers had figured out how to construct bullet jackets and cores such that the bullets would expand and penetrate, whereas old ammo was an either/or proposition. This was when the Silvertips, Black Talons, Hydra Shoks, and Starfires. This ammo was something folks didn't think would be coming out as quickly as it did.

    What you wound up with is ammo in 9mm that performs as well as a .40 in terms of penetration, wound channel, and incapacitation rates. However, agencies were already going away from the 9mm because the FBI was going away from the 9mm. Nowadays most agencies stick with the .40 because they have lots of ammo for the .40, and changing calibers is a horribly expensive proposition.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Funny thing I noticed at the last gunshow I went to, lots of used LE Glock 22s @ around $ 370 or so.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,233 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    Contact shots to the heads of kneeling prisoners or machine gunning folks on the edge of a mass grave with an MP38, doesn't really count for the purposes of this thread...

    Nor does goose stopping ability. Not all MPs were used strictly for shooting prisoners.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,233 Senior Member
    A .40 caliber has better terminal ballistics, but also has a lot more recoil. For small guns (pocket guns) a 9mm is the better choice in my opinion.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • JeeperJeeper Senior Member Posts: 2,952 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    And honestly, the 9 Sillymeter ain't one of my my favorite cartridges for a myriad of reasons. I only own one, a Ruger P-89. Its good points are..it is reliable as the sun coming up and going down again, it holds 15 rounds in the magazine and about as good as any full-size 'Wondernine' out there.

    Hardball to Hardball or FMJ vs FMJ......45 ACP wins hands down.

    Your .327 is probably a much better choice than a 9mm Pocket Puppy to tote for SD.

    If you want more firepower in a bigger sized pistol, then go the spray and pray route with a 9mm. It's obviously a personal decision. Carry/use what you do best with and have confidence in. Ain't no gun in any caliber any better than the man or woman behind the trigger.

    :win: If the 9mm is the largest caliber that you can shoot accurately, then it's the best SD choice for you. If you can shoot a .75 ManglerManKiller accurately, more power to ya. :tooth: All kidding aside, if you're ACCURATE with a .40, .44, or .45, then those are a better choice.... if you're actually going to carry one of'em. A small 9mm is much better than a handful of car keys.

    Luis
    Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,233 Senior Member
    NN wrote: »
    I was thinking about an old friend of ours from Texas who used that term.

    The other thing is "silly meter" denegrates everyone who owns one or carries one. It's an offensive term, like "40 Short and Weak." Same mentality, or lack thereof, from both sources.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
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