Actually, I agree. The .45 club is based mostly on inexperience, heavy on magazine articles. No one I know of have ever volunteered to be shot with a 9mm just to show how weak it is.
Not too many problems you can't fix
With a 1911 and a 30-06
The .45 club is based mostly on inexperience, heavy on magazine articles.
You're painting with a broad brush as well Gene... That being said...I believe that it has been noted throughout this thread that with ammo other than ball, the 9mm is perfectly acceptable for SD...though many still prefer the .45...I've seen the aftermath of enough 9mm shootings to convince me that I want to carry something else...
Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
Actually, I agree. The .45 club is based mostly on inexperience, heavy on magazine articles. No one I know of have ever volunteered to be shot with a 9mm just to show how weak it is.
Talk to that Tex Garrett guy, he seems pretty dense. :tooth:
Beware of false knowledge -- it is often more dangerous than ignorance.
That sounds better than the 10 mm SCC (Special Consideration Cartridge). :jester:
Or maybe the 10mm DJV (Desk **** Variant)
Sad fact of the matter is that the .40 is still a pretty snappy cartridge to shoot, and those who have to be dragged bodily to the range to qualify don't have a substantially easier time with it, and the round can get really unpleasant for those who need a lot of remediation (IOW - long shooting sessions). Seeing a lot of this has leaned me hard in the direction of the 9mm - - it will do the job if you do yours, and the lowest common denominator can usually be trained to shoot one fairly well without a lot of drama.
Or maybe the 10mm DJV (Desk **** Variant)Sad fact of the matter is that the .40 is still a pretty snappy cartridge to shoot, and those who have to be dragged bodily to the range to qualify don't have a substantially easier time with it, and the round can get really unpleasant for those who need a lot of remediation (IOW - long shooting sessions). Seeing a lot of this has leaned me hard in the direction of the 9mm - - it will do the job if you do yours, and the lowest common denominator can usually be trained to shoot one fairly well without a lot of drama.
Never understood the remediation thing. Do you really want someone who can't shoot for crap covering your butt? Why not let natural selectionweed out all non-hackers?
"....the true general purpose big-game cartridges used in this country come in but two calibers, .30 and 7mm. (the .270 Win. is merely a slightly aberrant 7mm whose bullets are .007" undersize.) -Finn Aagaard - American Rifleman, December 1986
Never understood the remediation thing. Do you really want someone who can't shoot for crap covering your butt? Why not let natural selectionweed out all non-hackers?
Bro. . .you've been around the trade long enough to know that suggesting policies THAT MAKE SENSE is strictly against policy. Potential changes that make sense AND cost money AND complicate an administrators life, well. . .they tend to stay potential.
But seriously, one thing I've learned in my LE-support stint is that the field is filled with lots of people who are all VERY good at something. Might be tracking flow of money, might be connecting one type of crime to another, might be analyzing traffic wrecks, might be an I.T. ninja. The unfortunate reality is that while you very much want and need people with these abilities around, they can't, and won't, all be shooters. Like anything else, you're going to have your top 5% who love it and live it, maybe 10%-15% who at least take it seriously enough to not cause the range staff any grief at all, a big chunk in the middle who sometimes need a little tuning up from time to time, and the bottom 3%-5% who provide you with endless hours of job security.
It ain't wright or wrong - it is what it is. The conclusion I eventually came to was that if the entirety of the U.S. military was Special Forces Operatives all descended from Alvin York and Carlos Hathcock, we wouldn't even HAVE the 9mm, or the 5.56/.223, or selective fire capability on individual weapons. But you also have to arm the cooks, the clerks, and the techs. Same goes for law enforcement - they can't all be SWAT. You should pick the tool that can do the job required of it that the most flinchy, all-thumbs individual can operate with a modicum of functionality.
Never understood the remediation thing. Do you really want someone who can't shoot for crap covering your butt? Why not let natural selectionweed out all non-hackers?
Yes, but the police funerals waste a ton of gas.
Dan
It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
Yes, but the police funerals waste a ton of gas.Dan
I was actually referring to kicking someone out when they don't pass the qual. Instead of sending someone over and over, and over, and over, to remedials until they pass by ONE point and calling it good till next quarter.
"....the true general purpose big-game cartridges used in this country come in but two calibers, .30 and 7mm. (the .270 Win. is merely a slightly aberrant 7mm whose bullets are .007" undersize.) -Finn Aagaard - American Rifleman, December 1986
The .45 club is based mostly on inexperience, heavy on magazine articles.
That would be me alright
that's why I wear a "shrimp" colored shirt to the SE shoots so people know who not to discuss calibers with. And hide all the lesser stuff when I approach.
A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
I was actually referring to kicking someone out when they don't pass the qual. Instead of sending someone over and over, and over, and over, to remedials until they pass by ONE point and calling it good till next quarter.
+1 :up:
Or at least, reassign them to a duty that doesn't require a firearm. I'm not a fan of those lowest common denominator solutions. That's just me though.
Beware of false knowledge -- it is often more dangerous than ignorance.
I'm not trying to stir the pot around this joint :tooth:, but didn't the term "Double Tap" start with or get really popular with the Wondernine craze that swept our country back in the 80s. I mean the real reasoning behind it was it would take at least two 9mms to put them down and so it became SOP in training and gun-speak. Is I right:popcorn::popcorn:
Actually, it an old technique, but I sure heard the term used in conjunction with the 9mm a lot, like Ham n Eggs..............
"The origin of the double tap technique is credited to William Ewart Fairbairn and Eric Anthony Sykes, British police chiefs in Shanghai during the 1930s to overcome the limitations of full metal jacketed (FMJ) ammunition. FMJ ammunition is commonly used by militaries for feeding reliability, adherence to the Hague Convention regarding non-expanding ammunition and improved penetration. FMJ rounds can fail to cause sufficient damage, requiring more hits and better shot placement. In Ian Dear’s book Sabotage and Subversion about British Special Operations Executive (SOE) and United States Office of Strategic Services (OSS) forces, Fairbairn is reported to have instructed SOE personnel in the double tap from 1944 to 1945 at the SOE training school directed by Fairbairn and Sykes near Arisaig in Scotland. The term "double tap" is now used to describe the broader technique of firing two rounds quickly and accurately to disable an opponent. The tactic is still used today by firearms handlers, police tactical teams, military personnel, counter-terrorist combat units, and other Special Operations Forces personnel."
It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
0
breamfisherSenior MemberPosts: 13,050Senior Member
That would be me alright
that's why I wear a "shrimp" colored shirt to the SE shoots so people know who not to discuss calibers with. And hide all the lesser stuff when I approach.
I thought it was "salmon"....
Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
OK, I have too put my 2 cents in...:p having carried a 9mm (92F)for years 20+ that is.. its a far cry from an S&W model 13 .38Spl. Still we were trained to shoot 2 to chest 1 to the head.. It does'nt matter, .22lr to Desert Eagle 50 Cal
it still hurts/kills.:buff:
Hey, hows about someone letting me shoot them with a pellet gun in my choice of impact location from about, oh.....5 or 10 yards away with you wearing only boxer shorts. Any takers?
"....the true general purpose big-game cartridges used in this country come in but two calibers, .30 and 7mm. (the .270 Win. is merely a slightly aberrant 7mm whose bullets are .007" undersize.) -Finn Aagaard - American Rifleman, December 1986
OK, I have too put my 2 cents in...:p having carried a 9mm (92F)for years 20+ that is.. its a far cry from an S&W model 13 .38Spl. Still we were trained to shoot 2 to chest 1 to the head.. It does'nt matter, .22lr to Desert Eagle 50 Cal
it still hurts/kills.:buff:
Model 13s are .357s.....did they make you carry hot .38s in it?
It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
Hey, hows about someone letting me shoot them with a pellet gun in my choice of impact location from about, oh.....5 or 10 yards away with you wearing only boxer shorts. Any takers?
Not me, as kids we had a BB gun shooting with a Sheridan pump up and one of the boys shot another in a leather jacket, the BB penetrated the jacket and stopped on the collar bone. No jacket and some other spot and it could have been bad.
Never knew why the shot was taken.
A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
Hey, hows about someone letting me shoot them with a pellet gun in my choice of impact location from about, oh.....5 or 10 yards away with you wearing only boxer shorts. Any takers?
LOL I'll pass on that offer. I doubt you'd offer me the same opportunity either. :jester:
Luis
Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
LOL I'll pass on that offer. I doubt you'd offer me the same opportunity either. :jester:
Luis
I was hoping CPJ would step up to the plate and let me get a little payback on him. I had two more pieces of copper jacket, or whatever metal piece it was, surface in my abdomen the other day. That was from around two years ago with the ported Glock to the stomach bet.
"....the true general purpose big-game cartridges used in this country come in but two calibers, .30 and 7mm. (the .270 Win. is merely a slightly aberrant 7mm whose bullets are .007" undersize.) -Finn Aagaard - American Rifleman, December 1986
"....the true general purpose big-game cartridges used in this country come in but two calibers, .30 and 7mm. (the .270 Win. is merely a slightly aberrant 7mm whose bullets are .007" undersize.) -Finn Aagaard - American Rifleman, December 1986
Nothing that would penetrate, but if I'm ever in your neck of the woods, I'll let you shoot me with some of those simunition rounds......but I get to shoot them right back. :tooth:
I'm not sure that size does not matter because in a lot of handgun ammo power increases with size because of increased powder and bullet weight. What does that mean, it means bigger will handle barriers better.
I'm starting to play with what barrior in the real world will stop common SD bullets. Past playing around has shown 5 inches of paper does it unless it is .44 mag or bigger. But, nobody is going to hide behind 5 inches of paper.
But, what about 6" pine barrior, ie, 3 2x4's? Don't unless the shooter has .32 ammo. Today a.45 acp HP zipped right through like it was not there.
I think next time I'll go back to 9mm and try 6 2x4's and see how that works. I'm thinking 3 will stop the 9mm.
You know, at one point I was having a great time shooting .38 special 158 grain RNL into young saplings and thought the penetration / expansion was good, all impressions being I was good to go, then one crazed Gardner with a machete throws all My well laid plans and ideas into a hand-basket.
"There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
Today I did try the same ammo and 6 pieces of 2x4 bundled together, shot from a 6.5" barrel.
I WAS WRONG, 4 -- 2x4 sections were penetrated with the un-expanded bullet stopping at the back edge of the 4th. Even though it was a longer barrel, some pressure must have been lost at the cylinder gap. HP clogging was an issue, as expected.
What does it mean to the shooting world, nothing except use something stronger than 4 thickness of
pine 2x4 to hide behind.
Maybe power balls or critical defence would have expanded in the wood and reduced penetration; but, I'm not buying any.
A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
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Replies
With a 1911 and a 30-06
You're painting with a broad brush as well Gene... That being said...I believe that it has been noted throughout this thread that with ammo other than ball, the 9mm is perfectly acceptable for SD...though many still prefer the .45...I've seen the aftermath of enough 9mm shootings to convince me that I want to carry something else...
Talk to that Tex Garrett guy, he seems pretty dense. :tooth:
Or maybe the 10mm DJV (Desk **** Variant)
Sad fact of the matter is that the .40 is still a pretty snappy cartridge to shoot, and those who have to be dragged bodily to the range to qualify don't have a substantially easier time with it, and the round can get really unpleasant for those who need a lot of remediation (IOW - long shooting sessions). Seeing a lot of this has leaned me hard in the direction of the 9mm - - it will do the job if you do yours, and the lowest common denominator can usually be trained to shoot one fairly well without a lot of drama.
"Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
Moot point. Never seen a person volunteer to be shot. Not even with a .22. Hell, people cringe at the idea of getting hit with a paintball.
Sent from my Motorola Atrix 4G via Tapatalk
Bro. . .you've been around the trade long enough to know that suggesting policies THAT MAKE SENSE is strictly against policy. Potential changes that make sense AND cost money AND complicate an administrators life, well. . .they tend to stay potential.
But seriously, one thing I've learned in my LE-support stint is that the field is filled with lots of people who are all VERY good at something. Might be tracking flow of money, might be connecting one type of crime to another, might be analyzing traffic wrecks, might be an I.T. ninja. The unfortunate reality is that while you very much want and need people with these abilities around, they can't, and won't, all be shooters. Like anything else, you're going to have your top 5% who love it and live it, maybe 10%-15% who at least take it seriously enough to not cause the range staff any grief at all, a big chunk in the middle who sometimes need a little tuning up from time to time, and the bottom 3%-5% who provide you with endless hours of job security.
It ain't wright or wrong - it is what it is. The conclusion I eventually came to was that if the entirety of the U.S. military was Special Forces Operatives all descended from Alvin York and Carlos Hathcock, we wouldn't even HAVE the 9mm, or the 5.56/.223, or selective fire capability on individual weapons. But you also have to arm the cooks, the clerks, and the techs. Same goes for law enforcement - they can't all be SWAT. You should pick the tool that can do the job required of it that the most flinchy, all-thumbs individual can operate with a modicum of functionality.
"Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
Yes, but the police funerals waste a ton of gas.
Dan
That would be me alright
that's why I wear a "shrimp" colored shirt to the SE shoots so people know who not to discuss calibers with. And hide all the lesser stuff when I approach.
That is what turned me off of Glock's, partly because of the snappy cartridge + other issues that need not be brought up here.
Glock fans feel free to get upset. :deadhorse:
Or at least, reassign them to a duty that doesn't require a firearm. I'm not a fan of those lowest common denominator solutions. That's just me though.
Actually, it an old technique, but I sure heard the term used in conjunction with the 9mm a lot, like Ham n Eggs..............
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_tap
"The origin of the double tap technique is credited to William Ewart Fairbairn and Eric Anthony Sykes, British police chiefs in Shanghai during the 1930s to overcome the limitations of full metal jacketed (FMJ) ammunition. FMJ ammunition is commonly used by militaries for feeding reliability, adherence to the Hague Convention regarding non-expanding ammunition and improved penetration. FMJ rounds can fail to cause sufficient damage, requiring more hits and better shot placement. In Ian Dear’s book Sabotage and Subversion about British Special Operations Executive (SOE) and United States Office of Strategic Services (OSS) forces, Fairbairn is reported to have instructed SOE personnel in the double tap from 1944 to 1945 at the SOE training school directed by Fairbairn and Sykes near Arisaig in Scotland. The term "double tap" is now used to describe the broader technique of firing two rounds quickly and accurately to disable an opponent. The tactic is still used today by firearms handlers, police tactical teams, military personnel, counter-terrorist combat units, and other Special Operations Forces personnel."
Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
How hard is it to find someone who'll volunteer to get shot with a .22 LR?
Oops, I see SirGeorge has already picked up on my line of thought.
I thought it was "salmon"....
it still hurts/kills.:buff:
What's that they say about great minds? Not sure how it applys to me and you though :jester:
Model 13s are .357s.....did they make you carry hot .38s in it?
Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
Never knew why the shot was taken.
They made us carry 38s in Model 13s.
With a 1911 and a 30-06
LOL I'll pass on that offer. I doubt you'd offer me the same opportunity either. :jester:
Luis
I was hoping CPJ would step up to the plate and let me get a little payback on him. I had two more pieces of copper jacket, or whatever metal piece it was, surface in my abdomen the other day. That was from around two years ago with the ported Glock to the stomach bet.
That's what she said....
You know, at one point I was having a great time shooting .38 special 158 grain RNL into young saplings and thought the penetration / expansion was good, all impressions being I was good to go, then one crazed Gardner with a machete throws all My well laid plans and ideas into a hand-basket.
Today I did try the same ammo and 6 pieces of 2x4 bundled together, shot from a 6.5" barrel.
I WAS WRONG, 4 -- 2x4 sections were penetrated with the un-expanded bullet stopping at the back edge of the 4th. Even though it was a longer barrel, some pressure must have been lost at the cylinder gap. HP clogging was an issue, as expected.
What does it mean to the shooting world, nothing except use something stronger than 4 thickness of
pine 2x4 to hide behind.
Maybe power balls or critical defence would have expanded in the wood and reduced penetration; but, I'm not buying any.