Why Tasers aren't a good SD choice.......

jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior MemberPosts: 9,458 Senior Member
http://www.timesreporter.com/communities/x985868807/Taser-fails-to-subdue-man-charged-in-disturbance

''Taser me again!"

And yes, Uhrichsville cops = keystone+cops.jpg


Notorious for macing people after they are in a holding cell.....
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
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Replies

  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,321 Senior Member
    Tasers aren't meant to "stun" people. They aren't stun guns. OC spray is not "repellant" unless you spray them with animal repellant or mosquito repellant. Tasers may or may not be a good SD choice, but they are effective for LE at times. Sometimes it beats the alternative. "Macing" people in holding cells in itself is not unheard of and not always a bad practice. People can injure themselves or others in a holding cell. Opening the door and starting a physical fight generally increses risk of injury to somebody involved. Depends on the situation and how the force is used. Not trying to defend poor decisions and actions that do happen out there every day, but you can't condemn practices and tools based on news articles.
  • SlanteyedshootistSlanteyedshootist Senior Member Posts: 3,947 Senior Member
    Musta been some good drugs there.
    The answer to 1984 is 1776
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,458 Senior Member
    Jay wrote: »
    Tasers aren't meant to "stun" people. They aren't stun guns. OC spray is not "repellant" unless you spray them with animal repellant or mosquito repellant. Tasers may or may not be a good SD choice, but they are effective for LE at times. Sometimes it beats the alternative. "Macing" people in holding cells in itself is not unheard of and not always a bad practice. People can injure themselves or others in a holding cell. Opening the door and starting a physical fight generally increses risk of injury to somebody involved. Depends on the situation and how the force is used. Not trying to defend poor decisions and actions that do happen out there every day, but you can't condemn practices and tools based on news articles.

    Tasers are good for LE..... when there is a 2nd LEO there to back you up with a firearm. Not for use by yourself, cause they don't always work. You have to get 2 prongs in the flesh on a moving target...

    Mace isn't good for a holding cell.............. when it empties out the whole building because everybodies eyes are burning.... It's a small one floor building with all of the town officials and secretaries..
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,043 Senior Member
    Tasers are a great LE tool. They tased the guy, and were able to cuff him according to the article. That's what you want.

    For SD, they work completely differently and are a different weapon entirely.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,458 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    Tasers are a great LE tool. They tased the guy, and were able to cuff him according to the article. That's what you want.

    For SD, they work completely differently and are a different weapon entirely.

    They cuffed him the old fashioned way of a pile-on after the taser didn't work....
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • SirGeorgeKillianSirGeorgeKillian Senior Member Posts: 5,458 Senior Member
    Problem with a tazer for SD? Even if you shock me good, in 10 seconds when the lightning ride is over, I am gonna get up and shove that tazer up........
    Unless life also hands you water and sugar, your lemonade is gonna suck!
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    I'm in love with a Glock
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,321 Senior Member
    jbp-ohio wrote: »
    Tasers are good for LE..... when there is a 2nd LEO there to back you up with a firearm. Not for use by yourself, cause they don't always work. You have to get 2 prongs in the flesh on a moving target...

    Mace isn't good for a holding cell.............. when it empties out the whole building because everybodies eyes are burning.... It's a small one floor building with all of the town officials and secretaries..

    It's always a great policy to have backup capable of using leathal force when less leathal force is being deployed. But it's not always possible. For local cops that have a quick response for backup, cool. For county and state guys out there by themselves with long wait times for backup, that's not always an option. You have to take that into account when you're dealing wiht these situations.

    "Mace" is a generic term these days. Sure, there is a procuct called Mace, but the term is used to describe all OC sprays in general. If cross contamination is a concern, there are products for that. Specifically ballistic stream spray patterns and possibly foam. I'm not a big fan of foam, but it has it's advanatages.

    No one tool is 100% effective. That goes for lethal and less lethal. It's generally the combination of tools and the proper deployment of them that makes the difference between a good and bad outcome. Tasers don't always work. One big factor is the spread of the darts. The further apart the better. The closer you are when you deploy it, the closer the darts will be together.
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,321 Senior Member
    Problem with a tazer for SD? Even if you shock me good, in 10 seconds when the lightning ride is over, I am gonna get up and shove that tazer up........

    I don't think Tasers are a great option for self defense. They could play a role in certain few situations, but that's not what the idea is here.

    In a LE situation, all they gotta do is pull the trigger again and the ride starts all over.
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,321 Senior Member
    jbp-ohio wrote: »
    You have to get 2 prongs in the flesh on a moving target... Not in the flesh. The prongs don't even have to contact the skin. They can still work when just stuck in clothing. May not be as effective, but the electricity can penetrate through clothing

    Just had to clarify that a little, too.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,258 Senior Member
    An idiot on the Fayetteville Tennessee police force decided to mace a really drunk guy who was injured in a car crash and had to be transported to the hospital ER prior to being jailed. He got combative in a treatment cubicle, and one of the cops tried to hose him down INSIDE the curtained-off area. He cleared out the entire ER, put a doctor and two nurses out of commission for several minutes, and since the guy was sitting right under an air conditioner vent, he didn't get enough of the OC spray to alter his behavior much. That cop had better pray he's never a patient of the people he sprayed- - - -it's gonna get really painful!
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,043 Senior Member
    Problem with a tazer for SD? Even if you shock me good, in 10 seconds when the lightning ride is over, I am gonna get up and shove that tazer up........

    No you won't. You're thinking of a stun gun. With a Taser, the leads are still connected to you and the taser, and you'll be cuffed while you're writhing around on the floor. If you try fighting, they'll just pull the trigger again and it's another 10 seconds.

    I think the guy in the article was push stunned, which means you pull the cartridge off and just use the thing like a stun gun. That's for people lying down where you can't get a spread on the probes.

    Never use pepper spray inside....it gets into the air conditioning and peppers the entire building.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,321 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    I think the guy in the article was push stunned, which means you pull the cartridge off and just use the thing like a stun gun. That's for people lying down where you can't get a spread on the probes. Right. You can actually drive stun with or without the cartridge removed. With the cartridge on the Taser, you can fire it against the skin, then move the taser to another area on the body. Contact the back at the shoulder blade, then pull the Taser to the thigh. Very effective when trying to restrain sombody who doesn't want to let you have thier hands.

    Never use pepper spray inside....it gets into the air conditioning and peppers the entire building. That's true in some cases. Especially in hospitals and courtrooms, etc. But like I mentioned above, that's not always true if you have the right tool for the job. The secondary effect of spray isn't so much to the eyes like some folks believe. It's the respiratory system effected by the particulates in the air. Streams and foams reduce or eliminate this problem.

    Again, just a little note that probably is usless info............
  • SirGeorgeKillianSirGeorgeKillian Senior Member Posts: 5,458 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    No you won't. You're thinking of a stun gun. With a Taser, the leads are still connected to you and the taser, and you'll be cuffed while you're writhing around on the floor. If you try fighting, they'll just pull the trigger again and it's another 10 seconds.

    I think the guy in the article was push stunned, which means you pull the cartridge off and just use the thing like a stun gun. That's for people lying down where you can't get a spread on the probes.

    Never use pepper spray inside....it gets into the air conditioning and peppers the entire building.

    No, I am thinking Tazer. Just like the one that I volunteered to be hit by when the local PD was doing training on them. They used the alligator clips on me and I am sure I still have some permanent reminder of that on me. And just like the one I saw a methed up tweeker pull the leads out of his body as soon as the ticking noise stopped. My point is that its effects are temporary, and my reply was geared towards SD, not a LEO tool as that is the title to the thread. When I was working in the gun shop I had lots and lots (mostly women) who were interested in less lethal options, most of the time under false pretenses of the effectiveness of said options.
    Unless life also hands you water and sugar, your lemonade is gonna suck!
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    I'm in love with a Glock
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,043 Senior Member
    SD Tasers work different from LE Tasers. They are based on the concept that you Taser the guy and run. They're the civilian version. You drop the weapon and it continues to shoot volts thru the guy until you're out of sight.

    A methed-up guy MAY pull the probes out but when you see him reach for them, you give him another shot. Anyway, he should be in cuffs before the effects wear off.

    It's a less lethal weapon, not a substitute for a gun.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • lightkeeperlightkeeper Member Posts: 168 Member
    Even LE tasers don't always immobilize a drugged up attacker. Wouldn't a pepper spray be better for SD? As you'd have a better chance to escape or otherwise react if the guy can't see you.
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,321 Senior Member
    Even LE tasers don't always immobilize a drugged up attacker. Wouldn't a pepper spray be better for SD? As you'd have a better chance to escape or otherwise react if the guy can't see you.

    Tasers are not 100% effective. Niether is pepper spray. If I had to choose one of the two, I'd go with the Taser personally. Consider the target area of the two options. Pepper spray must contact the eyes to even have a chance to be truly effective. Granted, there are some respiratory effects, but that's a secondary effect and not the real desired effect. Taser gives a little more target area provided both darts make contact with the individual.

    I've sprayed people only to see a look on thier face that says, "I was just going to fight you a little, but now you've pised me off!" I've also sprayed people and had to go from fighting to trying to keep the person from killing themselves freaking out, crying, yelling in pain, running around blind in panic. Same thing goes with the Taser. I've seen it work. I've seen it not work. There's a lot of reasons why they don't always work.

    However, the title of the thread is a little off from the article quoted, IMO. Self defense and law enforcement making an arrest are two totally different situations.

    ETA - Also consider how the two work. OC spray works by using pain and invovluntary closure of the eyes. Taser works by interfering with the body's nerve function, attempting to disable muscles. Pain tolerance is not a factor with the Taser.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,043 Senior Member
    I've never seen a TASER not work, but I've seen it take a couple of shots for it to work. Thick clothes up North can affect the stun, or a misplaced probe can.

    Drugged-up doesn't matter. It does matter with pepper spray, I've seen people with high tolerance to capsicum pepper who aren't distressed at all.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,321 Senior Member
    Very true. There is a very small percentage of the population who aren't effected by spray. But it does happen. I hear people talk of this a lot. It is true and does happen, but more often than not it's due to a bad hit or not allowing the product to work when that's a possibility. If it doesn't hit the eyes, it's not going to work. And some people take a little more time to react than others.

    The same is also true with Taser, as you mentioned. It's ususally user error or bad probe placement or a combination of the two.
  • BakermanBakerman Member Posts: 382 Member
    My retired LEO current court balif says that the bad guys fear a civilian armed with a gun more than the LEO cause the civilian will just shoot them whereas the LEO has rules and paperwork. Conversly they do not want to be tased cause it hurts. But when on drugs all rational thought leaves.
    Bakerman formerly known as Bakerman
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,258 Senior Member
    If the scumbag has gotten close enough to you that you can use a contact-type taser on him, your SD strategy has some serious flaws. By that time he should be leaking bodily fluids from several holes.
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,458 Senior Member
    Jay wrote: »
    However, the title of the thread is a little off from the article quoted, IMO. Self defense and law enforcement making an arrest are two totally different situations..

    If a trained LEO with a LEO grade Taser (better than the ones marketed for civilians) can't subdue someone with two shots, then an untrained civilian shouldn't try to rely on one to save threir hide...
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,102 Senior Member
    Problem with a tazer for SD? Even if you shock me good, in 10 seconds when the lightning ride is over, I am gonna get up and shove that tazer up........

    Negative... you can hold down the trigger. Besides, your comment indicates to me you may have not ever been tased with a modern ECD and experienced complete NMI (neuro-muscular incapacitation). I have. It sucks.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,662 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    Negative... you can hold down the trigger. Besides, your comment indicates to me you may have not ever been tased with a modern ECD and experienced complete NMI (neuro-muscular incapacitation). I have. It sucks.
    Apparently you'd be wrong, if this post, (#14 in this thread) is any indication
    No, I am thinking Tazer. Just like the one that I volunteered to be hit by when the local PD was doing training on them. They used the alligator clips on me and I am sure I still have some permanent reminder of that on me.
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,043 Senior Member
    jbp-ohio wrote: »
    If a trained LEO with a LEO grade Taser (better than the ones marketed for civilians) can't subdue someone with two shots, then an untrained civilian shouldn't try to rely on one to save threir hide...

    No one should rely on a TASER when faced with deadly force. That's not what they're for.

    As for a LEO TASER v a civiian TASER, they're two different products. LEO TASERs are not any "better," they're engineered differently.The civilian number is a shoot, drop and run model, and continues to introduce voltage as you presumably are running away. A LEO TASER is built with weapon retention in mind and to take the guy into custody.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • JeeperJeeper Senior Member Posts: 2,952 Senior Member
    Tasers are NEVER a good choice for SD. Far too likely that they will fail to perform for whatever reason. They are a GREAT choice in certain situations for LE/Detention though.

    Luis
    Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Let British LEOs have their fun with all that less than lethal clap trap.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,043 Senior Member
    Jeeper wrote: »
    Tasers are NEVER a good choice for SD. Far too likely that they will fail to perform for whatever reason. They are a GREAT choice in certain situations for LE/Detention though.

    Luis

    They're a great choice for a bad guy who isn't offering deadly force. They're not appropriate to defend against a deadly force threat, but they're slighly better than a stick.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,102 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    Apparently you'd be wrong, if this post, (#14 in this thread) is any indication

    Hmm, indeed, Sir.

    However, gator clipping them to you still does not offer the full experience of being shot with the probes. I've heard this from those who have been gator clipped AND probe-shot (myself only having been probe-shot).

    I've used one a few times and they work well in the application they were intended. For anything remotely considered deadly force, have your gun out. But like I said, if you are the only one around and use a taser, you can hold down the trigger and deliver multiple cycles until backup arrives if the resistance continues.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,102 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    No one should rely on a TASER when faced with deadly force. That's not what they're for.

    As for a LEO TASER v a civiian TASER, they're two different products. LEO TASERs are not any "better," they're engineered differently.The civilian number is a shoot, drop and run model, and continues to introduce voltage as you presumably are running away. A LEO TASER is built with weapon retention in mind and to take the guy into custody.

    Gene's on the money. Civvie taser is a 30 second ride, slower pulse frequency. LEO version is a 5 second ride, or continuous if trigger is held...M26 has a steady pulse rate, X26 has a varied pulse rate.

    I'd never recommend a Taser to a civilian looking for a SD device. That would be a gun.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 14,834 Senior Member
    Jay wrote: »
    "Mace" is a generic term these days. Sure, there is a procuct called Mace, but the term is used to describe all OC sprays in general. If cross contamination is a concern, there are products for that. Specifically ballistic stream spray patterns and possibly foam. I'm not a big fan of foam, but it has it's advanatages.

    True... the original "Mace" was primarily CN (1%)...later formulations either added the "pepper" component or did away with the CN component completely...In my experience, the original formulation was a little more brutal (nausea/vomiting)but more effective...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
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