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Airedale
Posts: 624 Senior Member
Health care
Airedale
Posts: 624 Senior Member
Can any one of you tell me why, as the as the most wealthy nation on the face of the earth, can't afford basic health care to the least of our citizens?
We spend Billions in the middle east for nation building for people who don't deserve one drop of our young persons blood.
I'll remind you of Viet Nam.
****! How many young lives need to be extinguished to satisfy this "one world" theory?
We spend Billions in the middle east for nation building for people who don't deserve one drop of our young persons blood.
I'll remind you of Viet Nam.
****! How many young lives need to be extinguished to satisfy this "one world" theory?
Replies
Make a constitutionally legal argument for it and we'll go from there.
Don't we spend billions on Medicaid?
This and other care issues have been an on going discussion with Clean and I!
The US Govt and "wealthy to a point of what do I do with my money civilians, celebs whatever" spend untold money on out of the US issues, be it hunger, education, health care, orphans, homeless, animal issues, etc; when we have people here in the us that need help, care, training for a better life.
However, do not think I am for socialized medicine! I am for spending here for social issues and less overseas.
Would you prefer an arguement both federalist and anti federalists would have agreed to or one that only the federalists would have agreed to?
One only need look at article 1 section 8 to find the arguement the federalists would agree to, the so called general welfare clause which the federlists have used to do all sorts of things. Seems to me the anti federalists would argue that they had limited this in the so called enumerated powers specified in section 8.
On a cynical note its called the new "Obama Care".. unfortunately health care is not a right in this country its a privilege. What we are witnessing in this country is" Profits-before-Patients". I have no doubt that the major medical insurance companies wrote the health care reform bill, for this administration. In other words the new health care bill was written by insurance companies for insurance companies...and due to the multi-billion dollar profits that insurance companies rake in every month some of this money was used for lobbying. Rest assured that its only going to get worse not better.
In March of 2010 President Obama signed a bill AKA patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. There was a group of doctors Physicians for a National Health Program (PNHP) who support health care for all, and they said that this new law was nothing more than a "false promise of reform." The US in the only major country in the industrialised world that doesn't guarantee healthcare to all of its citizens. NOTE: ( I am not a proponent for Socialized Medicine). Here is another fact from the ( PNHP) folks, they went on to say that: "The bureaucracy and paperwork of the profit-making helath insurance industry consumes one-third of every healthcare dollar. It's unconscionable that 45,000 people in the US die every year because they can't afford care. I suppose that the bottom line thinking on this piece of legislation was that in order to provide Universal coverage then everyone must be forced to buy some kind of health care insurance. Higher drug prices have driven up health care cost too.
All I am saying is that when the US government interfers with private industry in a capitalist society then the trouble soon begins.... Like all utopian promises, the idea of free health care for all sounds wonderful, but the bottom line is that a government-run health care system would be an enormous mistake for America. It's an empty promise built upon a foundation of myths... All of these advocates of "universial care" have fallen victim to one of the most pervasive myths in America today, and that is Government run health care is effective and efficient. Nothing could be further from the truth.
From what I have seen happening in the country for the last 4 or 5 decades is that the US Government is incapabile and incompetent of running and managing anything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jerry
I for one would not want a government program where some government flunky told me what I could and could not have done. One that decided how sick I was or what treatments I could get. Now just this week I had to deal with insurance people through our work. They had us come up to the break room and slid a paper in front of us that showed the plan with the fees and all that. Then they tell you verbally that it will actually cost more because of out of pocket and what not. So they really could'nt tell you what it cost in the end and they were foaming at the mouth to get us to sign....which we did due to my wife's MS. We need the insurance for the drugs. I did not do it but I really wanted to tell them where they could have shoved their insurance plan. So although I had to go with crappy insurance I still had the FREEDOM if I chose, to tell them to go **** themselves. The freedom to do that my friend is priceless!
As far as the leaders of this great nation....well....I think they are all Aholes lol
A recent "Investor's Business Daily" article provided very interesting statistics from a survey by the United Nations International Health Organization.
Percentage of men and women who survived a cancer five years after diagnosis:
U.S. 65%
England 46%
Canada 42%
Percentage of patients diagnosed with diabetes who received treatment within six months:
U.S. 93%
England 15%
Canada 43%
Percentage of seniors needing hip replacement who received it within six months:
U.S. 90%
England 15%
Canada 43%
Percentage referred to a medical specialist who see one within one month:
U.S. 77%
England 40%
Canada 43%
Number of MRI scanners (a prime diagnostic tool) per million people:
U.S. 71
England 14
Canada 18
Percentage of seniors (65+), with low income, who say they are in "excellent health":
U.S. 12%
England 2%
Canada 6%
And now for the last statistic:
National Health Insurance?
U.S. NO
England YES
Canada YES
Granted everyone may not have Health insurance, but that is often their choice. Those that need health care can often get if free, as there are many organizations that will provide assistance. IMO there is no obligation of the Government to provide healthcare, nor housing, nor a job, nor many of the other handouts the taxpayers are now paying for with our taxes.
:up: Agreed.
Luis
I'm unable to confirm that these figures were published by Investor's Business Daily. You probably got this in an circulating email. One critic claims there is no such thing as the United Nations International Health Organization. Can you confirm your source? Thanks. Looks a little fishy to me. I certainly agree with your conclusions, though. Well said.
The last I knew, the least of our citizens were our poor. Our poor are eligible for Medicaid. It sounds like we have been affording that for quite some time. The situation with health care in this country is not about getting the rich or poor health care. It has been about getting the working and middle class health care. About the only solution Obama care did toward solving that was mandating people to get health insurance. Thanks Barry. :roll: How about we quit trying to tie health insurance to employment? There is no such thing as a permanent job these days. How can anyone base "health care" on employment status? It seems reckless to me. People switch jobs all the time. Why should they have to switch insurance (and possibly doctors and continuity of care)? How about letting us buy insurance across state lines? Nothing like the Feds making sure we can't engage in interstate commerce while using the same clause to mandate the purchase of insurance.
Teach!!! I remember that deal.... and you are right... Let ole Robert manage a place that sells sex and booze and I will build ya the best gunsmithing shop on the planet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:rotflmao: IIRC it was in 1990 the IRS had seized the ranch, putting the federal government in the unique position of running a brothel. The government failed and the ranch was padlocked for the first time. Also I think the IRS auctioned off beds, the bidets, even the room numbers to recover some of the conforte's tax debt.here's a link from a 8-11-2007 USA Today:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/topstories/2007-08-11-398857697_x.htm
This^^^^
I know of a few working people who can no longer get health insurance because their bosses no longer offer it, because the cost has risen too high. But they can't get Medicaid because they make too much.
Another problem is that we set up our health insurance unlike any other form of insurance I am aware of. Does your car insurance pay for regular servicing of your vehicle? House insurance pay for re-roofing when you need it? Why does health insurance pay for checkups? Because they're too expensive to pay for otherwise? Why is that? Maybe because the doctor's office needs staff to handle health insurance billing, and has to increase rates to deal with paying for those personnel. And they can't cut the numbers of staff because nearly every patient has insurance.
The insurance industry has formed this giant, self-replicating monster of paperwork to get health care. And most folks can't afford to go without because of cost. The hospital or doctors won't bill them an insurance provider rate, but a more expensive full rate. If you ever get some kind of surgery or work done while on insurance, look at the bill. The initial bill is usually much higher than the final bill. Because insurance negotiates it down. If you didn't have insurance, you'd either try and negotiate or pay the higher initial cost. The system is gamed against us.
On further thinking, I do understand the "why" of mandating everyone get healthcare. It's all about pre-existing conditions. A lot of folks with pre-existing conditions either just couldn't get health care, or the costs were so high that it was unaffordable. I can understand that: those with pre-existing conditions would almost certainly need health care, need a lot of it, and cost a ton of money. The venture wouldn't be profitable. So to offset that, the health insurance companies needed folks who wouldn't need the services to pay in, but those folks tend not to buy health insurance because they don't need it. I'm talking about the 20-somethings who are healthy and generally never see a doctor. The care of those with pre-existing conditions wouldn't be financially viable unless the younger folks who wouldn't need the insurance signed up. But they wouldn't sign up voluntarily because they though (correctly) that the money was just being thrown away for no personal benefit. Only way to correct that was to issue a government mandate.
The insurer of last resort here in Michigan is Blue Cross/Blue Shield. I am sure you are aware on my pre-existing conditions. They are the only one that will insure me with an individual policy. They have to insure me according to state law. The rate for me and my entire family combined is about $550 a month (not bad at all). People with no pre-existing conditions are welcome to use Blue Cross or many of the other bazillion insurers in this state... Or they are welcome to have no insurance at all. Catastrophic policies for single, healthy 20-somethings were running maybe $50 a month the last I checked. The need for mandating health insurance to everyone is a flat out lie! Oh, and the least of our citizens have been getting health care this entire time.
Over the last couple of months, a doctor's office call went up from $80 a visit to $92. The cardiologist went up from $90 to $120. I wonder why that happened?
Needless to say, pre-existing health conditions do make a poor risk for any insurance entity, much like a poor driving record makes a person a poor risk for auto insurance. Higher health care premiums are then justified. There are no free rides in life.
Now that have constitutionally rejected federal intervention, each state would be on its own to do its best with free enterprise insurance companies. Reading above, it would seem that some states do better than others, but no system is perfect. Liberal progressives disagree, and say that the government should control everything in striving for the perfect system. Unfortunately, that's a fallacy.
Capitalism, free enterprise, free markets, profit motivation, all with a very minimum of government regulation will always do the most good for the most people. Notice that our current governmental crisis is a direct result of government gone wild, with the roots of the problems going all the way back to FDR. Every government invented system, from social security, to Medicare to Medicaid was doomed to bankruptcy from the start, it just took time for these ill-conceived programs to all go bust.
Health care costs are sky-rocketing, true, but that mostly from extended life expectancies, modern medical testing and treatment becoming more life saving, but also much more expensive. It's a modern reality.
The bottom line is a healthy economy. That by itself will strongly tend to correct all of our problems. Freedom from governmnent interference is paramount to our political and financial health. The liberals want to bankrupt us and destroy the Constitution, it sure looks like to me. Obamacare is one more giant step towards our collapse.
I will not try to address all these issues, as I have no easy answers to the health care crisis as it exists today after HMO nightmares and the farce that is Obamacare. I will address the "pre-existing condition" from my personal perspective, however.
I have Type 1 "juvenile" diabetes, for which there is only control, never a reversal of the condition (outside of recently performed transplants) as is possible for Type 2 "adult onset" patients, who often see remarkable improvement if not cessation of the disease after controlled weight loss. My medical history now makes this a "pre-existing condition" ineligible for coverage if I change insurance under some policies. My diabetes will not go away, it will only shorten my life if my blood sugar is not controlled through monitoring and medicating with insulin. As Jermanator stated, no job these days is permanent. I had a period where I was uninsured after losing a job to work slowdown, and COBRA was outlandishly expensive while I was on limited income and searching for a new job. When I landed one, I had more hoops to go through (provision of medical records, letter from my doctor, etc.) before the new insurance would accept my appeal for coverage of my diabetes medication and testing supplies.
Currently, my (crappy) employer-provided insurance costs me nearly $200 per MONTH simply in co-pays to keep supplied with the necessary insulin, syringes, and testing strips for my blood meter (this is simple co-pay, not factoring the amounts I pay each paycheck in premiums!), but to go uninsured would easily more than quadruple my monthly out-of-pocket expenses for the same required medication. My health condition will not go away if I am unemployed, and there are no generic drugs available for any of my effective insulins.
I don't wonder that the upcry for health care reform was there - the government fix isn't the answer, but the one clause now under "universal health care" abolishing the pre-existing condition requirement is a Godsend, in my book.
"Health care reform will force insurers to accept all applicants starting in 2014. Currently, five states (Maine, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York and Vermont) mandate that a full range of guaranteed-issue health insurance policies be made available, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation. Idaho, Michigan, Ohio, Oregon, Rhode Island, Utah, Washington and West Virginia have more limited guaranteed-issue rules. Insurers in 38 other states plus the District of Columbia routinely decline applicants based on their health status."
If banning pre-existing exclusions were the only concession made by law, I could accept that, on a state-by-state basis. Obamacare is way, way over the line, however. I sure wish you the best.
This is the only real good thing I see coming out of what I've seen of the federal health care reform act - I have felt for a long time that serious overhauls of the insurance industry were called for. But NOT, IMO, by the federal government, where no matter what they change, the price goes up.
It was ridiculous, the way Obamacare was ramrodded down the throats of the public, especially Speaker Pelosi's asinine comment that "we'll have to pass the bill to find out what's in it!" Just one more indication of the complete disconnect between the government powerbrokers and the general American public.
The best thing that could be done is to allow interstate competition in the health care industry, which is now prohibited. The Wall Street Journal explains it all in this article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203550604574360923109310680.html#articleTabs%3Darticle
Next, repeal Obamacare. Finally medical malpractice tort reform is essential. Hey, that was easy!
Screw the health insurance industry! The smart, nimble, and strong will survive. How about the rest of industry? Why is Acme Widget Co. in the business of providing health insurance? Shouldn't they be in the widget business?
Tying health insurance to employment is an anchor around the necks of American businesses. How are they supposed to compete with the rest of the world while dragging that weight around?
Because it would be morally reprehensible to do so.
If you advocate the Govt taking control and providing 'care' to everyone, then you are professing the desire for slavery.
Govt is force. The only thing that Governments have over individual citizens is the legal monopoly on the use of deadly force to accomplish it's goals. Think about it- if you decide to flaunt the law, what is the end result? The threat or USE of deadly force against you. That's it. That is what it all distils down to.
So, if you support the Govt screwing a machine gun into the ear of a doctor, a nurse, an orderly, or a lab tech to take from them the fruits of their labor... you support slavery. Those people will be forced to work for you. That is morally wrong.
If you think "They won't be FORCING them to work..." you are wrong. Look at all the bills that are offered. Every one of them says that it is a CRIME to do any underground work. If a Dr. wants to treat you for cash- he CAN'T. That would be when the guns come out again. Same thing if The Govt comes in and starts telling drug companies what they can and can't charge for medicines. They are forcing them to work for what the Govt thinks is the right price. Do you want the Govt to come in, point a gun at you and DEMAND that you can only work for $X/hr? Then what gives you the right to do so to someone else?
It's not about 'need' or 'fairness' or 'all the other cool countries are doing it'... it's about liberty.
-Mikhail Kalashnikov
At some point it is made up for in pure volume of patients seen, I mean think clearly, how much time does a Physician actually spend with you ?? a few minutes ???? the rest of that time is spent with perhaps nurses techs and perhaps the odd Physician assistant.
Did you know how Malpractice insurance actually costs you as a patient ????
There is a big difference, though. You have the choice to participate. So does the doctor. With Govt mandated healthcare, you have NO choice. There are men with guns that will kill you if you refuse.
Big difference.
And yes- I understand that all costs are passed along to the customers. That is a basic economic fact. Every raised tax, every penny of insurance, rent, med school, etc... it is all passed on to the consumer.
-Mikhail Kalashnikov
THIS is IMO, the REAL issue that needs to be addressed, but won't be since most of our politicians are lawyers and this is their bread and butter.
Like Bullsi1911 said, they have the CHOICE of whether or not to participate in an HMO. That isn't *REQUIRING* them to work for a set fee... they either choose to, or choose not to. Their choice.
Luis
Are we to mimic European socialism? I think not. Look what it's gotten them, teetering on bankruptcy, the EU threatened with collapse. Sound familiar as we are being "forced" into Obamacare, and our deficit keeps growing substantially. Socialism is a bottomless pit of higher and higher taxes, spending, and government interference in the marketplace, and everywhere else.
We need to put the brakes on hard and face some realities instead of pie in the sky social programs and big brother government.
Actually, in NYS there is no free choice, a Physician has no choice in the matter, they must accept HMO's and Medicaid and Medicare patients like it or not.