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Time for an honest discussioin on Glock pistols

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  • twatwa Senior Member Posts: 2,245 Senior Member
    horselips wrote: »
    First, let's dispense with the obvious - a weapon is only as safe as its operator, and your alert, working brain is a gun's most positive safety.

    Compared to a double action revolver, with a traditional 10 pound-ish double action trigger pull; and compared to a double action/single action automatic with an exposed hammer and de-cocking safety; and compared to a single action automatic with one or more manually operated, disabling safeties, the Glock design is relatively unsafe. Technically, the Glock "Safe Action" is neither SA or DA but a combination of both.

    Would you carry a DA or SA revolver with the hammer cocked over a loaded chamber with nothing between the hammer and the firing pin? I wouldn't. I know - the single action trigger pull on a DA or SA revolver is usually much lighter than the Glock's, but the Glock factory standard of 5.5 pounds is still far too light for my peace of mind. If you're comfortable with that, good for you. Once a round is chambered in a Glock, the weapon cannot be secured, or even de-cocked except by firing. The gun cannot even be stripped for cleaning without pulling the trigger.

    Whether unintended discharges are due to accident, negligence, the unforeseen actions of another, senior moments, or whatever, I don't care. The simple fact is they happen, and they happen to experienced shooters as well as novices. I've been lucky (or competent, or careful, or attentive, or whatever) so far and never experienced one. But it just makes sense to me that the more visually complex a mechanism is, the more attention it intrinsically demands from its operator. When I carry my 1911 in Condition One, the visual impact of the exposed, cocked hammer compels me to engage the thumb safety. Even so, being totally anal about safety, I chose a holster that has a retaining strap that passes between the hammer and the frame.

    I will not condemn the Glock out of hand - for those who are perfect, never make mistakes, never forget or overlook anything, or are constantly attended by their guardian angel, a Glock is a good choice. For the rest of us, the combination of mechanical levers and visual cues serves to enhance safe gun handling, and peace of mind when carrying.

    :that: Well said.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,229 Senior Member
    Glocks as being dangerous to the shooter is not a given, as some here suppose. There are a hell of a lot of Glocks out there. Which may account for the supposed numbers of U/D (Unintended Discharge.) As a LEO firearms instructor, I never saw a UD for basic pistol courses using Glocks or any other pistol that I can recall, but that's probably because we stressed safety and not pulling the trigger until you're ready.

    I, too, would like to see the stats of UDs per capita of shooters. My feeling (which is entirely speculation based on my rememberences) is that there were probably more UDs with 1911s. I do know of several UDs in the Army and know pistol training was one of the heaviest instructor to student ration I witnessed.

    I'm no Glock fanatic, but they're honest guns and extremely reliable. And relatively cheap compared to the competitors, which has caused the competitors to lower prices. Glocks being relatively cheaper is why so many LEO agencies use them. If I was in charge of arming a PD or a SO, I probably would chose them over the competition.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,626 Senior Member
    twa wrote: »
    :that: Well said.

    No, no it was not.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • twatwa Senior Member Posts: 2,245 Senior Member
    coolgunguy wrote: »
    No, no it was not.

    Yes, Yes it was.
    There are a lot of Taurus haters here, and a lot of block lovers. I have learned to hate both.
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,992 Senior Member
    I own and shoot Glocks as much as any other handgun, including the G19, G22, G23 and G20. I have never had an AD or ND, but I am grandma when it comes to taking it in and out of the holster, because I know just 5 lbs of pressure on the trigger is going to make it work.

    Most DA revolvers require a lot more pressure and that is the issue in my opinion with Glocks. If 1 million people handle a gun, someone will drop it, try to catch it, etc. and if you could count the millions and millions of times Glocks are holstered and unholstered there is opportunity for ND based on the design and intent of the gun. Is it an acceptable risk? I think so.

    However, I think there may be flawed guns that when set down hard in a holster, sideways might go off. I have no proof, I am just looking at the AD record and anecdotal evidence. My guess is that if it is dropped at just correct angle, impact and flaw combined a Glock is capable of an AD in a holster.

    IMHO

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 10,346 Senior Member
    BigDanS wrote: »
    I own and shoot Glocks as much as any other handgun, including the G19, G22, G23 and G20. I have never had an AD or ND, but I am grandma when it comes to taking it in and out of the holster, because I know just 5 lbs of pressure on the trigger is going to make it work.

    Most DA revolvers require a lot more pressure and that is the issue in my opinion with Glocks. If 1 million people handle a gun, someone will drop it, try to catch it, etc. and if you could count the millions and millions of times Glocks are holstered and unholstered there is opportunity for ND based on the design and intent of the gun. Is it an acceptable risk? I think so.

    However, I think there may be flawed guns that when set down hard in a holster, sideways might go off. I have no proof, I am just looking at the AD record and anecdotal evidence. My guess is that if it is dropped at just correct angle, impact and flaw combined a Glock is capable of an AD in a holster.

    IMHO

    D

    Nope. The firing pin isn't all the wau back until trigger is pulled
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    coolgunguy wrote: »
    No, no it was not.

    I don't know.....he used proper sentence structure, punctuation, paragraphs, etc....

    I'm of the opinion that it WAS well said........the information given was WRONG, but it was well said. :tooth:
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,626 Senior Member
    twa wrote: »
    Yes, Yes it was.
    There are a lot of Taurus haters here, and a lot of block lovers. I have learned to hate both.


    Hate what you will, but understand that your dislike doesn't make the gun any less than a well designed, strongly made product. The only fault that Glocks have is that they are ugly enough to make a freight train take a dirt road...but that quality is often a beauty all it's own. I personally don't like Glocks, but I have to give them their due. Excellent pistols. :up:
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • twatwa Senior Member Posts: 2,245 Senior Member
    coolgunguy wrote: »
    Hate what you will, but understand that your dislike doesn't make the gun any less than a well designed, strongly made product. The only fault that Glocks have is that they are ugly enough to make a freight train take a dirt road...but that quality is often a beauty all it's own. I personally don't like Glocks, but I have to give them their due. Excellent pistols. :up:

    I still own a 23, 27 and 30, have never experienced any kind of any malfunction on any them that I have owned. (I have gotten rid of a few also, and have to say they were about the only guns I have ever owned and gotten rid of that I never once regretted) That being said, the guns just don't fit me, I don't shoot them accurately and are very uncomfortable to shoot, again this is MY experience with Glocks. It doesn't make them a bad gun, they just don't do it for me.
  • twatwa Senior Member Posts: 2,245 Senior Member
    Eli wrote: »
    I don't know.....he used proper sentence structure, punctuation, paragraphs, etc....

    I'm of the opinion that it WAS well said........the information given was WRONG, but it was well said. :tooth:

    There may be some non-truth to some of that post, but most of it is opinion and I agree with the opinion portion of the post.
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    twa wrote: »
    There may be some non-truth to some of that post, but most of it is opinion and I agree with the opinion portion of the post.

    Perfectly normal. As I've stated on here before, everyone is entitled to wrong opinions. Otherwise, I wouldn't have anyone to say to, "Hey dude, your opinion is wrong." , and that would be a total bummer.
  • twatwa Senior Member Posts: 2,245 Senior Member
    Here is my honest opinion of Glocks in general: This probably sums it up pretty good. I guess I could call them my bathroom guns. Sad thing is, I thought I had a 23 but pulled it out of the safe and it is actually a Model 22. :uhm:
    222730.jpg
    Hope I didn't hurt anyones feeling here.
    Someone has way too much time and toilet paper. :jester:
    By the way in case you were wondering, its quilted northern, only the best!
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    But/Butt be careful if yer finger slips through the crap paper you will have an AD/ND unintentional discharge followed rapidly by another stinky one if you're still alive......:yikes:
    twa wrote: »
    Here is my honest opinion of Glocks in general: This probably sums it up pretty good. I guess I could call them my bathroom guns. Sad thing is, I thought I had a 23 but pulled it out of the safe and it is actually a Model 22. :uhm:
    222730.jpg
    Hope I didn't hurt anyones feeling here.
    Someone has way too much time and toilet paper. :jester:
    By the way in case you were wondering, its quilted northern, only the best!
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 25,442 Senior Member
    Quilted Northern is inherently less safe than other TPs. There are more "Oopsies" with Quilted Northern than any other toilet paper.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • twatwa Senior Member Posts: 2,245 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Quilted Northern is inherently less safe than other TPs. There are more "Oopsies" with Quilted Northern than any other toilet paper.

    Prove that statement………...
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 25,442 Senior Member
    twa wrote: »
    Prove that statement………...

    I don't have to. I read it somewhere on the internet and heard it once on the news. That means it's true.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Well it must be my imagination when I read (in almost every instance) on the news a Glock was involved in what they call an "Accident" ....taking a crap....thought it wasn't loaded......caught my clothes.....car keys...showing off at a school by cops.....yep no Glocks..................lets see can I remember back through many decades of S&W models 10 revolvers causing so many problems..or even Wondernines that weren't Glocks, nope.

    I'll bet you the next one we hear about such an incident will be with a Glock and I venture to say 7 outta the next ten will be too.

    I see y'all s point I really do. Sheer numbers in use and non-familiarity with how it operates. I'm telling you I firmly believe the nature of the Glock beast lends itself to folks screwing up with them. I don't care if I'm the only one on here who believes that or not.

    Maybe someday somebody has the resources to gather and feed the statistics into a database and put it on a spreadsheet. I searched and can't find any concrete information on numbers of Glocks involved vs non-Glock semi-auto pistols.


    '
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 25,442 Senior Member
    Then it will remain speculation and an invalidated assumption. Nothing more.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • twatwa Senior Member Posts: 2,245 Senior Member

    And I thought had too much time on my hands. :roll2:
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,977 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    and I venture to say 7 outta the next ten will be too.

    '
    That would be 70%.....I'm too lazy to go back to the posted statistics on page 1 but I seem to recall that Glock has 70% of the LEO market share. So, they are the guns in 70% of the LEO hands and you expect them to account for 70% of the UD (I like that acronym, Thanks Gene). Yeah, that math works.

    Bet the other 30% of the UDs occur in direct proportion tho their percentage of use as well :tooth:


    edited to add: That's kind of like saying silver automobiles are twice likely to be involved in an accident than a yellow one. Considering there are over twice as many silver vehicles than yellow,..... NO DUH :silly:
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 25,442 Senior Member
    Paul..........they choose to reject your reality and substitute their own.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • terminator012terminator012 Senior Member Posts: 3,930 Senior Member
    Y
    As far as the folks on this forum not having Glock discharge issues, I think it just proves we have a smarter class of people on this forum.

    I quoted you and in no way am I'm singling you out. Just wanting to make a point.

    I asked this question a while back and got no response. I carry a G19 daily and practice with it every chance I get. It is the most accurate best controllable pistol I own. In my line of business I often have to un holster it and leave it in the truck. My holster is very comfortable but a PITA to take off with the gun in it. So I just pull the gun out of the holster and leave it in the vehichle. For this very reason I usually don't have a round chambered in the G19. I have practiced racking the slide to get one chambered all the time. I would really feel better with one chambered but I have seen what this gun will do accidently. I carry it IWB with a holster you have to slide the belt out of to get it off. Eli, others, what do you use for a holster that you may have to unholster this gun several times a day with a chambered round and feel safe. I know all about no finger on the trigger but when placed in glove box that all changes.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 25,442 Senior Member
    I quoted you and in no way am I'm singling you out. Just wanting to make a point.

    I asked this question a while back and got no response. I carry a G19 daily and practice with it every chance I get. It is the most accurate best controllable pistol I own. In my line of business I often have to un holster it and leave it in the truck. My holster is very comfortable but a PITA to take off with the gun in it. So I just pull the gun out of the holster and leave it in the vehichle. For this very reason I usually don't have a round chambered in the G19. I have practiced racking the slide to get one chambered all the time. I would really feel better with one chambered but I have seen what this gun will do accidently. I carry it IWB with a holster you have to slide the belt out of to get it off. Eli, others, what do you use for a holster that you may have to unholster this gun several times a day with a chambered round and feel safe. I know all about no finger on the trigger but when placed in glove box that all changes.

    Blackhawk Serpa Holster (paddle). I use one all the time. If you can conceal it, it works well.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Blackhawk Serpa Holster (paddle). I use one all the time. If you can conceal it, it works well.

    One of the few things that Zee and I disagree on. I really, really don't like the Serpa holster.

    Right now, I'm really digging the RDR Custom Kydex IWB holster. Not a whole lot of material, doesn't take up a lot of space on your waist, the clip is very secure, but can be taken on and off quite easily (which allows you to carry with a round in the chamber), also the owner, Jeff, is awesome when it comes to customer service.

    He's building me a "one off" custom rig right now, just to make sure nothing was lost in translation he took time out of his day, called me up and went over the design that I had specified in the email point by point. In a couple of instances he made suggestions about something that I had asked for, that would actually make it more difficult for him, but make the holster better suited for me. Not very often that someone will make their life more difficult, just to help out someone that's ALREADY going to give them money.


    http://rdrholsters.com/store/display/2212/132/the-iwb-holster-glock

    The clip that's pictured is actually the old one. The updated version is made of a much more durable material, and is easier to get on and off the belt.
  • terminator012terminator012 Senior Member Posts: 3,930 Senior Member
    Thanks Zee, Eli, I have a Blackhawk OWB similar to that one. I like it for outside carry. is that kydex as comfortable as leather when carrying IWB.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 25,442 Senior Member
    Nothing is comfortable to carry IWB. Least, nothing that I've ever found. IWB is something to be endured............not enjoyed.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 25,442 Senior Member
    Eli wrote: »
    One of the few things that Zee and I disagree on. I really, really don't like the Serpa holster.

    So, what did you read on the internet that made you come to this conclusion?

    :jester:
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    Is that kydex as comfortable as leather when carrying IWB.




    Personally, I prefer kydex.

    Leather tends to get damp (especially during the summer) and stay that way. By the end of the day I tend to find leather to be a bit uncomfortable. Kydex doesn't retain ANY moisture and unless it just breaks in half, is 100% maintenance free. You don't have to worry about it eventually drying out, mildewing, becoming soft, etc.... Granted, with a high quality leather holster, these issues aren't going to come up for several years, but they will come up. With kydex, stick it in you belt and forget about it.
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    So, what did you read on the internet that made you come to this conclusion?

    :jester:


    One of the few things that I actually learned from experiencing first hand......I fell into a pool.

    Now normally that wouldn't be so bad, but the pool was drained and I happened to be cleaning about 6" of sludge out of the bottom of said pool at the time. Fell directly onto the holster (good lord that hurt....for a minute I thought that I'd broken my damned hip.....DON'T CARRY ANYTHING IN THE SMALL OF YOUR BACK!!!), got up, cussed for a little while, sprayed my side (and the Glock/Serpa) off with a water hose and continued about my business.

    At the end of the day I go to take my Glock out of the holster and the latch WILL NOT BUDGE, when I had fallen, some of the gunk in the bottom of the pool had squished into the mechanism, completely blocking me from "unlocking" the holster. I had to pick the gunk, out from under the latch with the tip of a knife to get my gun out of the holster.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this is a common occurrence, you would basically have to replicate those general guidelines, that is, fall directly onto the holster, but still, it's not a chance I'm willing to take. Especially given the fact that there are literally dozens, if not hundreds, of holsters on the market to choose from that do not share this risk, but still offer an acceptable level of retention.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 25,442 Senior Member
    At least you drew a conclusion from actual experience and physical data. :beer:
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
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