Revisionist History Rant.....

JayhawkerJayhawker ModeratorPosts: 15,059 Senior Member
1619437_10152047033153163_849059865_n_zpscc55a35c.jpg

I absolutely HATE this crap...what I hate even worse is that people blindly gobble it up like it's gospel...

Then I find this; " We rewrite the past to serve the needs of the present." -Stephen Marche, The New York Times

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to find out that there were never 100 million Native Americans on "American Soil" in the first place....

We constantly hear about "white" on "Indian" warfare but you never hear about inter-tribal warfare that was going on long before the whites showed up and continued even during "The Indian Wars";

Comanche preying on and killing Tonkawa, Pueblo and Apache
Sioux and Cheyenne killing Pawnee and Crow (and visa versa)

and we're not talking skirmishes and coup counting...we're talking out and out warfare that included the killing of women and children. Not only that....but there were tribes, notably the Crow and Pawnee, that sided with the white military as a way of getting a leg up on their hereditary enemies....

Our history (not always pretty) is being turned into lies and fairy tales to suit the needs of the ignorant..
Rant off....(not really, I'm still just steaming)
Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
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Replies

  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,104 Senior Member
    What about the fact that the Native Americans used the whole animal and didn't waste them?
    Or didn't overharvest animals?
    Overkill is underrated.
  • Pelagic KayakerPelagic Kayaker Banned Posts: 1,503 Senior Member
    What about the fact that the Native Americans used the whole animal and didn't waste them?
    Or didn't overharvest animals?

    Pure nonsense! Might want to recheck your facts before watching Dances with Wolves for the hundredth time there Lt. Dunbar.
    "The reflection upon my situation and that of this army produces many an uneasy hour when all around me are wrapped in sleep. Few people know the predicament we are in" ~General George Washington, January 14, 1776
  • waipapa13waipapa13 Senior Member Posts: 710 Senior Member
    Nice sarcasm there Bream,
    One of my pet peeves too, I've heard that claimed about Maori as well, the dependence of many Indians on trade goods procured through beaver and buffalo hide trading by the 1850's would attest to this myth. Not many people knapping flint or grinding tools out of thumper bones when green river knives could be had for skins.
  • woodsrunnerwoodsrunner Senior Member Posts: 2,725 Senior Member
    In about 1704 a disease developed in cattle in the British Isles and northern Europe making cow hides very scarce for the 40-50 years that the disease lasted. Whitetail Deer hides from the Colonies, especially the Deep Southern and Eastern Colonies, filled the needs for leather in Europe during this time. Native American Indians were instrumental in killing off the Southeastern deer population which didn't recover fully until the 1960's. In the South the Creek Indians were the main hunters, and they ranged from Southern Florida to the Ohio River, the eastern Atlantic coast to the Mississippi killing deer. Well over a million deer hides a year for 40+ years were shipped to Europe, harvested by Native Indians. Florida alone supplied over 300,000 hides a year. (When I say that the deer population didn't recover 'till the 1960's, other factors were responsible for this, not necessarily over harvesting by Indians).
  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 3,375 Senior Member
    Or that "hunting" wiped out the buffalo with no mention made of bovine diseases doing most of the work with the beginning of cattle drives north from Mexico and Texas.
    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • Ranch13Ranch13 Senior Member Posts: 820 Senior Member
    I seriously doubt there were ever as many buffalo as claimed to have been wiped out. The range just would not of held that many, or not for very long anyway. If a person takes a hard look at the dates , the "northern" herd was long gone before the slaughter in Texas ,Oklahoma and Kansas got all the attention.
    100 million native Americans?? Not a chance.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,059 Senior Member
    Pure nonsense! Might want to recheck your facts before watching Dances with Wolves for the hundredth time there Lt. Dunbar.

    Ummmm...he was being sarcastic there PK. There are plenty of folks who honestly believe that when pre-horse indians ran 300 buffalo over a cliff, they made 300 flyswatters, 600 horn spoons, etc etc. By simply digging at the old buffalo jumps we know that a huge number of animals went to waste based on the numbers of un-butchered carcasses at the bottom of each successive bone pile.

    We know that in 1876 a bunch of Crow Scouts working for the Army slaughtered a herd of bison and left them to rot because they were "Sioux" buffalo.

    We also know of an incident in which 500 Sioux who wanted to buy whiskey slaughtered 1500 bison, took their tongues and left the rest to rot.
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,560 Senior Member
    Pure nonsense! Might want to recheck your facts before watching Dances with Wolves for the hundredth time there Lt. Dunbar.

    900x900px-LL-658002b7_joke_over_your_head.jpeg
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,560 Senior Member
    So........ one out of ten humans in the entire world was a Native American??? How did they get enough people over here on leaky wooden boats to conquer such a large population???

    587px-World-Population-1800-2100.svg.png
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • gunwalkergunwalker Member Posts: 470 Member
    Those of you who have ever taken a class in statistics may have come across a little book called "how to lie with statistics" Apparently has its followers.
    We do not view the world as it is, but as we perceive it to be.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    I love this!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics


    "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" is a phrase describing the persuasive power of numbers, particularly the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments. It is also sometimes colloquially used to doubt statistics used to prove an opponent's point.

    The term was popularised in the United States by Mark Twain (among others), who attributed it to the 19th-century British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli (1804–1881): "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." However, the phrase is not found in any of Disraeli's works and the earliest known appearances were years after his death. Other coiners have therefore been proposed, and the phrase is often attributed to Twain himself."
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,508 Senior Member
    gunwalker wrote: »
    Those of you who have ever taken a class in statistics may have come across a little book called "how to lie with statistics" Apparently has its followers.

    Joe Carrol does...Why not statistics...
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • Hugh DamrightHugh Damright Member Posts: 169 Member
    Just this morning I happened to read the following (in Colossus by Niall Ferguson):

    "... in 1820 the indigenous population had numbered just 325,000 ... their numbers having been roughly halved in the previous century by disease and small wars."
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,626 Senior Member
    For an honest description of the Pre-Columbian Western hemisphere, as well as a dispassionate, agenda-free analysis of the effects of European colonization, read Charles Mann's excellent book, "1491."
  • DurangoKidDurangoKid Member Posts: 183 Member
    Many tribes were cannibals. Most every tribe practiced slavery. The Cherokee Confederate Calvary was the last CSA troops to surrender. They did not want to give up their Black slaves. It was Anglo Christian Missionarys that stopped much of the Barbarism. :deadhorse:
  • SlanteyedshootistSlanteyedshootist Senior Member Posts: 3,947 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    Ummmm...he was being sarcastic there PK. There are plenty of folks who honestly believe that when pre-horse indians ran 300 buffalo over a cliff, they made 300 flyswatters, 600 horn spoons, etc etc. By simply digging at the old buffalo jumps we know that a huge number of animals went to waste based on the numbers of un-butchered carcasses at the bottom of each successive bone pile.

    We know that in 1876 a bunch of Crow Scouts working for the Army slaughtered a herd of bison and left them to rot because they were "Sioux" buffalo.

    We also know of an incident in which 500 Sioux who wanted to buy whiskey slaughtered 1500 bison, took their tongues and left the rest to rot.


    At least they didn't have Jello and a video camera.
    The answer to 1984 is 1776
  • Dr. dbDr. db Senior Member Posts: 1,541 Senior Member
    horselips wrote: »
    For an honest description of the Pre-Columbian Western hemisphere, as well as a dispassionate, agenda-free analysis of the effects of European colonization, read Charles Mann's excellent book, "1491."

    Yup
  • shushshush Senior Member Posts: 6,259 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    ..... if you ever hear the history of our war of Independence on the other side of the pond I'm sure the story is a little different...

    What war?

    When?

    Who won?

    I don't know you turn your back for five minutes, eh!

    You'll come crawling back mark my words, just after you have a community organizer make a mess of things. :devil:

    “History will be kind to me for I intend to write it.”
    ― Winston Churchill

    cjp wrote: »..... Oh dear God, I've admitted to liking something Limey.I'll never hear the end of this.

    Jayhawker wrote: »...But seriously Shush....

    Big Chief wrote: ».........walking around with a greasy butt ain't no fun, though!

     


     

  • PFDPFD Senior Member Posts: 1,202 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    We did abuse the crap out of the natives and I still feel a pinch of anger when we call European colonialists "discoverers" as opposed to the truthful name of "invaders".

    As the comedian Sinbad put it so eloquently, "If you think Columbus discovered America then maybe I should go out in the parking lot and "discover" your car stereo". :tooth:
    That's all I got.

    Paul
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    1619437_10152047033153163_849059865_n_zpscc55a35c.jpg

    I absolutely HATE this crap...what I hate even worse is that people blindly gobble it up like it's gospel...

    Then I find this; " We rewrite the past to serve the needs of the present." -Stephen Marche, The New York Times

    It doesn't take a rocket scientist to find out that there were never 100 million Native Americans on "American Soil" in the first place....

    We constantly hear about "white" on "Indian" warfare but you never hear about inter-tribal warfare that was going on long before the whites showed up and continued even during "The Indian Wars";

    Comanche preying on and killing Tonkawa, Pueblo and Apache
    Sioux and Cheyenne killing Pawnee and Crow (and visa versa)

    and we're not talking skirmishes and coup counting...we're talking out and out warfare that included the killing of women and children. Not only that....but there were tribes, notably the Crow and Pawnee, that sided with the white military as a way of getting a leg up on their hereditary enemies....

    Our history (not always pretty) is being turned into lies and fairy tales to suit the needs of the ignorant..
    Rant off....(not really, I'm still just steaming)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv7pu_YZCrg&feature=youtube_gdata_player
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • Dr. dbDr. db Senior Member Posts: 1,541 Senior Member
    Love Whittle(sp?)
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,626 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    We did abuse the crap out of the natives and I still feel a pinch of anger when we call European colonialists "discoverers" as opposed to the truthful name of "invaders".


    In 1493, His Holiness Pope Alexander VI, Vicar of Christ, in the Bull of Demarcation, divided the New World between their Most Catholic Majesties the Kings of Spain and Portugal. From then on, all the land in the Western Hemisphere became the property of these two Crowns, and the inhabitants thereon became their Subjects. The Native Indians were quite properly dispossessed. Subsequent transfer of lands and inhabitants from the Spanish and Portuguese to the French, Dutch, British and Americans, then transpired. Native resistance was rebellion and terrorism, pure and simple. Sorry - but that's how HISTORY GETS DONE.
  • PFDPFD Senior Member Posts: 1,202 Senior Member
    horselips wrote: »
    In 1493, His Holiness Pope Alexander VI, Vicar of Christ, in the Bull of Demarcation, divided the New World between their Most Catholic Majesties the Kings of Spain and Portugal. From then on, all the land in the Western Hemisphere became the property of these two Crowns, and the inhabitants thereon became their Subjects.

    Unfortunately, not everyone agreed. :rotflmao:
    That's all I got.

    Paul
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 7,042 Senior Member
    I'd certainly agree if you said a whole bloody lot of native Americans from Alaska to Cape Horn died as a result of diseases brought over by Europeans during the period between 1492 and 1900. Tragic though it was, I wouldn't lump them in with the terms "genocide" and "slaughter" - as I expect the creator of that poster is doing.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • DurangoKidDurangoKid Member Posts: 183 Member
    Humm? The NDNs had been smoking tobacco for centuries. They had no warning labels or a Surgeon General's report on the dangers of tobacco. They introduced tobacco to Europeans around 1500 AD for over 500 hundred years, millions have supposedly died from tobacco smoke. So what was a few thousand cases of Small Pox? :jester:
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    Dr. db wrote: »
    Love Whittle(sp?)

    I concur with a good bit of his commentaries.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    1984

    “He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past.”

    Scary........
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 3,375 Senior Member
    DurangoKid wrote: »
    Humm? The NDNs had been smoking tobacco for centuries. They had no warning labels or a Surgeon General's report on the dangers of tobacco. They introduced tobacco to Europeans around 1500 AD for over 500 hundred years, millions have supposedly died from tobacco smoke. So what was a few thousand cases of Small Pox? :jester:

    An interesting side note, ever since the invention of the cigarette, sometime in the late 1700s, it's been known as the "coffin nail." The dangers of smoking were known - if not understood - for a long time before there was ever a surgeon general.

    Dan
    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,653 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »

    I absolutely HATE this crap...what I hate even worse is that people blindly gobble it up like it's gospel...

    The 'Big Lie' has no shortage of low-talent writers to spread the BS around, and no shortage of morons to embrace it. It's hard work to do genuine research, and the folks who want a free ride on the coattails of a dictator only do enough to either make history appear too boring to be useful, or to take anecdotal excerpts from it and extrapolate them into something that never really happened.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,855 Senior Member
    Hehe, Pelagic, bream IS BEING SARCASTIC HERE HEHEHE
    That was only a punch point. On the other side of the coin how many times I've read about the NA (INdians) running a whole heard off a cliff to get some hides and a little meat. Yes the bunny huggers are working overtime. And that crock about hunters shooting buffalos into near extinction? hehehe another fairytale many of us, including me, fell for for many many years. I think we are mostly on the same page here.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
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