Question for knitepoet

DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior MemberPosts: 9,496 Senior Member
I have a question(s) for you Paul, as it relates to 9mm personal defense ammo:

I have seen your extensive comparative testing on many types of personal defense ammo, and I suspect that you know as much if not more that the others out there conducting tests to include Fackler (sp?) etc....

Perhaps you have already posted conclusions on this topic, what are / were your conclusions on expanding 9mm ammo, and have you done a FMJ vs expanding, ( HP - JHP- SP etc..) ????? +P Vs RP, for defensive porpoises ??? heavy vs slow, light and fast vs slower and heavy, I don't know if anyone has done comparative tests on the available ultra light and ultra fast ultra expensive rounds...

Big question, ultra cheap rounds vs ultra expensive, has anyone noted a real difference ?

What in your opinion is a good general purpose 9mm personal defense round ?
"There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996

Replies

  • TrueTone911TrueTone911 Senior Member Posts: 6,045 Senior Member
    Yeah…I want to know to. Especially that slow & heavy vs fast & light.
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,865 Senior Member
    Have never tested FMJs

    have tested quite a few different 9mm loads over the years, including WWB 147gr JHP.
    I'll start posting pics momentarily. Might take a while to find all the 9mm loads
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,865 Senior Member
    Georgia Arms 115 +P+ Gold Dot
    100_0676.jpg

    Fed 124gr +P+ Hydra-Shok
    100_1002.jpg

    more to come
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,865 Senior Member
    Fed 124gr +P HST
    9mmhst.jpg

    Non +P Speer 115 Gold Dot and 147gr Win White Box from sub compact PM9
    Kahr5.jpg

    Fed 124gr +P HST and 135gr Hydra-shok, again from the PM9
    Kahr6.jpg
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,865 Senior Member
    Win WB 147gr JHP from Glock 19
    wwb147-1.jpg
    wwb147-2.jpg
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,865 Senior Member
    Hornady 124 TAP XTP (2 views)
    9mmTAP-FPD.jpg
    9mmTAP-FPD-Profile.jpg

    Hornady 115 Critical Defense (2 views)
    9mm-profile.jpg
    9mm.jpg
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,865 Senior Member
    Fed 9BPLE +P+ 115gr
    9-BPLE.jpg

    Win Silvertip
    Win-ST.jpg

    Hope that helps, that's all the 9mm loads I've tested
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,865 Senior Member
    My personal choices?
    Wife's PM9 is loaded with the non +P 115 Speer Gold Dots

    My Glock 19 is loaded with Fed 124gr +P HST

    I was surprised by the performance of the 147 WWB from both the Kahr and Glock, but I'm not a fan of 147gr 9mm, anymore than I am 158 gr 38/357 bullets, for SD. That's just my preference.


    edited to add:

    Mainly, pick the JHP in the weight of your preference, and shoot NOT until you think they're no longer a threat, but until they KNOW they're no longer one*



    *Paraphrased version of advice given TO me. Not my original idea
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    "I was surprised by the performance of the 147 WWB from both the Kahr and Glock, but I'm not a fan of 147gr 9mm, anymore than I am 158 gr 38/357 bullets, for SD. That's just my preference."

    I what I think is a clearer or better idea than I did before, WWB cheaper stuff....... I am more into heavy, even the abysmal 158 gr RNL RP stuff still killed folks though.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,865 Senior Member
    That's why I said my dislike of 147's was just my preference. Also, there's a HUGE difference between "killing" and "stopping"

    An arrow with a broadhead kills quite nicely, but it doesn't "stop" critters very well compared to an expanding bullet.

    The only "stops" I've ever had with an arrow involved hitting the spine.
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • KENFU1911KENFU1911 Senior Member Posts: 1,052 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    ( HP - JHP- SP etc..) ????? +P Vs RP, for defensive porpoises ??? ?

    They are easy to kill.....just keep em away from water for awhile.....
    My idea of a warning shot is when the 2nd bad guy watches his 1st buddy go down....
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    That's why I said my dislike of 147's was just my preference. Also, there's a HUGE difference between "killing" and "stopping"

    An arrow with a broadhead kills quite nicely, but it doesn't "stop" critters very well compared to an expanding bullet.

    The only "stops" I've ever had with an arrow involved hitting the spine.

    Paul, I highly respect your views, to paraphrase a start trek quote about Spock, I feel better about your guesses than I do about other peoples facts.....
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • TrueTone911TrueTone911 Senior Member Posts: 6,045 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    My personal choices?
    Wife's PM9 is loaded with the non +P 115 Speer Gold Dots[/I]

    The non +P 115 Gold Dot is what I am usually loaded with. I have standard pressure Federal and Hornady stuff in 124 & 135 but I always seem to load up with the 115 Gold Dots for some reason.

    Is your avatar from one of your tests? If so, what is it?
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    As I have said before, I have seen the cheap 9mm FMJ Winchester stuff kill bad guys DRT too, well placed shots notwithstanding, so I wonder if the better $25 stuff is killing them any deader, or is shot placement the better factor.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • TrueTone911TrueTone911 Senior Member Posts: 6,045 Senior Member
    I'm guessing shot placement is the better factor.

    I want as nasty a wound cavity as my little 9mm can make so as long as I can afford to stock the better JHP stuff, I'm going to.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    On the slab at the morgue, as far as what I have observed, in the field too, actual shootings, stuff I have observed and experienced first hand, it seems bad guys and the enemy die from FMJ too, so My question again is this, is the expensive HP stuff really killing them any deader, wound channel wise ??? I have seen nothing in real life to back that up, static tests and Internet facts, notwithstanding.....
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • TrueTone911TrueTone911 Senior Member Posts: 6,045 Senior Member
    I see your point and don't know the answer. Maybe the wound channel of the JHP is more effective if shot placement is not ideal.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    In an autopsy, you will see major organ trauma and vascular damage as the primary cause of death listed secondary to GSW, loss of blood causing death, hypovolemia, Rifle bullets do this better in humans like a mini blender blade mulching as it passes through, if a bullet does not expand or hit anything vital it may zip cleanly through and exit sometimes with little internal damage.

    However, if you rupture enough organs and blood vessels in the thoracic cavity, chances are they will die sooner or later, it is after all hard to breath with a hemo pnemo thorax anyway.... poke enough holes in the thorax and things tend to shut down......
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • pjames777pjames777 Senior Member Posts: 1,078 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    On the slab at the morgue, as far as what I have observed, in the field too, actual shootings, stuff I have observed and experienced first hand, it seems bad guys and the enemy die from FMJ too, so My question again is this, is the expensive HP stuff really killing them any deader, wound channel wise ??? I have seen nothing in real life to back that up, static tests and Internet facts, notwithstanding.....

    The probability of the two is that a FMJ has a higher likely hood of passing cleanly through than an expanding bullet. I want as much damage on the one shot as possible as there may not be a second. That said, stopping power is mythical IMHO.....take a perp on drugs and its likely one shot to the brain is the ONLY one shot that will stop them. No sense in saving .50 cents between the cost of WWB and a Gold Dot for self defense....again IMHO :cool2:
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    There is a time factor too, many times a person may be mortally wounded. non survivable wounds, and live long enough to kill and wound other people as happened in 1986 in Miami two perps vs the FBI, the perps had Mini 14s, non of the agents had a rifle, and were armed mostly with .38 special revolvers, nobody thought to bring even a Tommy gun even though they all had access to scads of full automatic weapons.......

    I think after all is said and done, good shot placement is king, you also need adequate penetration and you need bullet expansion, and more than one shot too........ Spray and pray is NOT an option, however, high capacity is a bonus too.

    The old .38 special RNL RP round was an abysmal performer even with good centermass shot placement, taking a long time to incapacitate or stop a suspect, if a suspect could absorb 18 rounds and keep on coming at you with a machete before finally collapsing dead a scant few feet from you, and you are out of ammo with an empty revolver, something has gone wrong.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,865 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    Paul, I highly respect your views, to paraphrase a start trek quote about Spock, I feel better about your guesses than I do about other peoples facts.....
    Thank you for the compliment :beer:
    Is your avatar from one of your tests? If so, what is it?
    Yessir it is. It's the backside view of a 45 230gr Win SXT from last month.
    http://forums.gunsandammo.com/showthread.php?18344-10mm-and-45-ACP-ammo-tests-(Pic-HEAVY)
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • TrueTone911TrueTone911 Senior Member Posts: 6,045 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    Yessir it is. It's the backside view of a 45 230gr Win SXT from last month.
    http://forums.gunsandammo.com/showthread.php?18344-10mm-and-45-ACP-ammo-tests-(Pic-HEAVY)

    Impressive!
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 23,968 Senior Member
    WWB HP's are generally quite adequate rnds in all the calibers they make.
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    NN wrote: »
    WWB HP's are generally quite adequate rnds in all the calibers they make.

    Howsoever, I want better than adequate, or I would still be using .38 special 158 gn RNL
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 23,968 Senior Member
    Ok then, I should have said they are as good as the more expensive ones of the same grain weight.
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    But how do we know that ? because after all I have seen, I still have no evidence, either subjective or objective, and that is what I seek, We know that all ammo can potentially kill, but does any ammo expensive or cheap, kill them any deader /faster ?
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    In "Hardball"/ FMJ configuration the general consensus/school of thought for many years now has been if given a choice take the .45 over 9mm. Both "Over penetrate" and are not ideal , but the .45 makes a bigger hole by caliber, heavier in weight and moves slower and thus dumps more of it's energy into a target even though both may very well exit the BG and neither is optimal for SD/HD/LEO use.

    Same pick along those lines of thinking is true in .45 ACP HPs, beacuse even if it fails to expand, you still will have a .45 caliber hole in the target.

    The 158 RN lead bullet used by cops for many decades as you pointed out was an abysmal stopper , immediately anyhow unless a vital was hit. Sure plenty took multiple hits, but it took them too long to be incapacitated and a lot died later.

    When 158 LSWC and LSWC-HPs were used the effects were much improved, so bullet design did make a difference there.

    In the Miami shootout, didn't a .38 Spl put an end to it, put the last BG down? Head shot?

    No magic bullet exists, but I reckon any quality made ammo in a HP design would give you a slight edge/better chance to stop the BG and less over-penetration than FMJs in any given handgun caliber.

    Arguments can go either way with the old .45 vs 9mm debate, bigger and slower or faster and lighter with more ammo in the magazine.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 23,968 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    But how do we know that ? because after all I have seen, I still have no evidence, either subjective or objective, and that is what I seek, We know that all ammo can potentially kill, but does any ammo expensive or cheap, kill them any deader /faster ?
    No
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
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