Texas: You find a boy in your daughter's bed, bang!

samzheresamzhere BannedPosts: 10,923 Senior Member
Homeowner was awakened by his 16yr old daughter at 2am, a strange boy (young man really) was in her bedroom, father tells the guy to remain quiet, the kid apparently (so we now hear from the father, right!) "made a threatening move" ha ha, and gets blown away, deceased, room temp.

Apparently the daughter when first asked by the father said she didn't know who the boy was, so boom! Later she admitted he was her boyfriend and she'd let him into the house. Too late, girl, to change your story now.

Note that the incident will be referred to a grand jury** without charges from the county attorney. Typical for Texas, yay! Also note the reference to a previous incident where a homeowner shot and killed 2 burglars in the back, and was not charged.

This is Texas justice. And the way it should be everywhere.

** In Texas, any intentional killing (even if clear self defense) is required to be presented to the county grand jury for disposition. What really matters is whether charges are brought upon the shooter by the county attorney (who usually acts on recommendation from the police investigation). So... first the police will investigate and decide whether justified self defense or not, and then recommend charges be brought (or not) and the county attorney then proffers those charges to the grand jury, who usually rubberstamps the prosecutor's request.

The charges can be anything from 1st degree misdemeanor, up to 1st degree homicide w. special circumstances (capital crime). Or the police can find that the case is justified and therefore the prosecutor doesn't file any charges. Still, regardless, any intentional taking of a life is required for presentation to the grand jury.

Lesson learned? The Castle Doctrine is alive and well in Texas. Y'all come on down!

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/03/14/charges-unlikely-for-houston-dad-accused-shooting-daughters-boyfriend/

Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
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Replies

  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Tragic event that shouldn't have ever happened.

    Just because you can, doesn't mean you should have kinda case ain't it? I wasn't there so...................
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • WeatherbyWeatherby Senior Member Posts: 4,768 Senior Member
    I see senility has set in for you.

    Seriously that father and girl have to live with the consequences
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,525 Senior Member
    Man in room with sixteen yo daughter, father gets woke up by other kid saying strange man in 16 y/o's room AT 2 AM. 2 people are at fault, the 16 y/o, and the 17 y/o. I will tend to place more blame on the 17y/o. He chose to be a man, he got to live with that decision for a short time. Think of how he felt when she tossed him to the wolves.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,660 Senior Member
    Weatherby wrote: »
    I see senility has set in for you.

    Incidents like this will be the end of castle doctrine. He murdered that boy according to your account.
    Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,724 Senior Member
    Sam, I am surprised you doubt the father who was holding someone at gunpoint that he believed was a home intruder/ rapist.

    I feel bad for everyone involved. The father did what he believed was right, the daughter was trying to stay out of trouble with her dad, and the boy probably just wanted to go home.

    He will get no-billed. Here is why:

    Sec. 9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON.

    (a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another:

    (1) if the actor would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31; and

    (2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

    (A) to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or

    (B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.

    (b) The actor's belief under Subsection (a)(2) that the deadly force was immediately necessary as described by that subdivision is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:

    (1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the deadly force was used:

    (A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;

    (B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor's habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or

    (C) was committing or attempting to commit an offense described by Subsection (a)(2)(B);

    (2) did not provoke the person against whom the force was used; and

    (3) was not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic at the time the force was used.

    Sad case all around.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    He will get no-billed. Here is why:


    (2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
    Sad case all around.

    Agree, but it's an indication that your home is indeed your sanctuary. That goes way back, even further than English Common Law.

    My point is this: Don't play the game if you can't pay the entrance fee. As was said, the kid must have thought it was "keen" to have sex with a 16 year old in her own bedroom. Not any longer.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Weatherby wrote: »
    I see senility has set in for you.

    Er, how did you arrive at that astute conclusion? Did I err in stating the situation? Misspell a lot of words? Create undecipherable sentences?

    Or did you simply disagree with my assessment? Feel free to do so, but if you choose to insult me, you can take a flying leap at a rolling donut.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Kids do dumb stuff. Once coming home to Savannah GA back in 96 or so, my neighbor flagged me down and said someone had broken into my house through a bathroom window, just then 3 cop cars arrived hands on their guns....

    Turns out my daughter forget her key so her and a friend removed the screen pried up the window and crawled in the house.

    Neighbor didn't recognize her friend or her, cops said they were ready to "Throw Down" on them.

    Disaster avoided, thank God.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,626 Senior Member
    Daddy dear you know you're still number one, but girls...just wanna have fun!
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,660 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    Homeowner was awakened by his 16yr old daughter at 2am, a strange boy (young man really) was in her bedroom, father tells the guy to remain quiet, the kid apparently (so we now hear from the father, right!) "made a threatening move" ha ha, and gets blown away, deceased, room temp.

    Apparently the daughter when first asked by the father said she didn't know who the boy was, so boom! Later she admitted he was her boyfriend and she'd let him into the house. Too late, girl, to change your story now.

    Note that the incident will be referred to a grand jury** without charges from the county attorney. Typical for Texas, yay! Also note the reference to a previous incident where a homeowner shot and killed 2 burglars in the back, and was not charged.

    This is Texas justice. And the way it should be everywhere.

    ** In Texas, any intentional killing (even if clear self defense) is required to be presented to the county grand jury for disposition. What really matters is whether charges are brought upon the shooter by the county attorney (who usually acts on recommendation from the police investigation). So... first the police will investigate and decide whether justified self defense or not, and then recommend charges be brought (or not) and the county attorney then proffers those charges to the grand jury, who usually rubberstamps the prosecutor's request.

    The charges can be anything from 1st degree misdemeanor, up to 1st degree homicide w. special circumstances (capital crime). Or the police can find that the case is justified and therefore the prosecutor doesn't file any charges. Still, regardless, any intentional taking of a life is required for presentation to the grand jury.

    Lesson learned? The Castle Doctrine is alive and well in Texas. Y'all come on down!

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/03/14/charges-unlikely-for-houston-dad-accused-shooting-daughters-boyfriend/

    And this is ok? The daughter should be charged with his death as should the dad.
    Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • timctimc Senior Member Posts: 6,681 Senior Member
    Buford wrote: »
    And this is ok? The daughter should be charged with his death as should the dad.
    Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2

    I totally disagree but, I think the daughter should have some kind of consequence but not the father, he acted with the though of protecting his family and I fault no one for that. The daughter instigated it trying to cover her butt so to speak, I think negligent homicide charges that should be brought against her.
    timc - formerly known as timc on the last G&A forum and timc on the G&A forum before that and the G&A forum before that.....
    AKA: Former Founding Member
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    And this just in, yet another intruder shot dead by a homeowner. But hey, this is Texas...

    http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Harris-County-homeowner-fatally-shoots-intruder-5318440.php?cmpid=hpbn

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    horselips wrote: »
    Daddy dear you know you're still number one, but girls...just wanna have fun!

    Aw, so sentimental! Thanks. Don'cha just love her? (Cyndi Lauper that is)

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Buford wrote: »
    Incidents like this will be the end of castle doctrine. He murdered that boy according to your account.
    Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2

    Priorities ?????

    End of the castle doctrine ? so what ? if it ends, that would be sad, especially if it ended due to an isolated case, or even a spate of cases, I doubt that will be the result anyway.
    The George Zimmerman killing of Trayvon Martin trial and verdict was one example of that, not of the so called castle doctrine, but legitimate self defense against violent attack.

    A man is dead because so many things went wrong, like in cool hand Luke, what we've got here, is failure to communicate .... some men, you just can't reach, so you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it, well he gets it, I don't like this anymore than you men.....

    You just can't blame this incident on any one simple factor, this snowballed on since the day a child was born, perhaps poor parenting skills, poor communications skills, and in the finale, a man ended up dead, there is a lesson to be learned here, and pointing a dirty stick serves no good purpose.......

    While this is a sad occurrence by all accounts, the daughter was complicit before and after the fact, she let the ADULT MALE in to the home, then denied knowing the man, instead of admitting the truth, What did the father know ? his little girl, had been raped ? and then he percieves perhaps the rapist could have a gun ? maybe the man was reaching for his shorts and clothes to get away, and BLAM !!!!

    Also it is the rule of law, it will not change so fast, even in old New Pork City, things like that happened and no charges were filed if the gun was registered.

    The legal system decides what is and what is not MURDER...... hence why is it likely better to live in Texas and not California.

    However, when you find a man in bed with your very young 16 year old daughter, let us see if you are so very quick to be oh so very lenient and oh soooooooo Liberal minded. :roll:
    Originally Posted by Weatherby View Post
    I see senility has set in for you.

    That was uncalled for.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • waipapa13waipapa13 Senior Member Posts: 710 Senior Member
    Wow, just wow Sam,
    I had a lengthy response written to this, likely would have gotten me banned, regardless, your callousness is of a depth I find incomprehensible, the cruelty and lack of compassion it would take to revel in an incident like this truly plumbs the depths of what Conrad called the heart of darkness.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,197 Senior Member
    When my step daughter moved back in when she was 14 (and didn't know that I could read every conversation she had with her boyfriend online), I suggested that if I found some young man in her room in the middle of the night, that I would have to assume that she was being raped and I would be forced to shoot him. That rendezvous got cancelled quickly.

    Edit-- No, I wouldn't have shot the kid if he showed up, but he would have had a miserable night. It is all for the better that him and his buddies think that I would have shot them. I don't have to be nuts. I just have to make them think that I am nuts.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    waipapa13 wrote: »
    Wow, just wow Sam,
    I had a lengthy response written to this, likely would have gotten me banned, regardless, your callousness is of a depth I find incomprehensible, the cruelty and lack of compassion it would take to revel in an incident like this truly plumbs the depths of what Conrad called the heart of darkness.

    Why do you judge Sam so ?
    How do you judge him or his character ?

    As a LEO and in EMS and other arenas, I saw much death, too much death, from infants to the very elderly, from every cause, murder, natural causes, and it made Me sad, sometimes, the death was of a felon trying to murder an innocent, I saw LEOs celebrate, when the death was that of a criminal and not of an innocent.

    However, I would call this saying of the sages to mind: Rejoice not in the downfall of thine enemy, lest his fate befall thee too.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • waipapa13waipapa13 Senior Member Posts: 710 Senior Member
    Here's how I learnt it Doc, "there but for the grace of God go I", had a friend in school who did a similar thing, thankfully he's still with us.

    I find it distasteful that someone would use the death of a young guy in what were stupid and preventable yet relatively innocent actions (16 to 17 in NZ in a consensual context and the cops wouldn't file stat rape charges, and IMHO shouldn't) as furtherance that their favoured law is working well/as intended and that such a case was correct use of force, whether it was justified legally, the only "weapon" our corpse had wasn't packing much in the way of capacity.

    I like Sam, and for someone of his education and beliefs as I've come to know them from how he presents himself on the forum I am surprised that he would be so classless as to indulge in schadenfreude of this kind, guess I was wrong in my estimation, tell me if I'm missing something.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Hey Sam is just the messenger so don't "Shoot" him so to speak. I think he did seem a little callous about the young man getting shot, but I believe he was trying to bring to light the laws of Texas pertaining to the Castle Doctrine.

    The father didn't start shootin until he asked his daughter if she knew him , if he had the presence of mind to ask that couldn't he have asked if he hurt her and was he threatening his daughter or him?

    So immediate action wasn't necessary to save life or property? We weren't there and we do know how single tracked focused we can get when it comes to protecting our families and we go into tunnel-vision mode.

    I wish it hadn't of happened, I don't think the father is guilty of anything under Texas law or proud of his actions and I'm sure he deeply regrets doing what he did.

    I guess what I'm saying is I'd rather have or live in a state with Stand Your Ground Laws than one where you have to retreat and can be charged for protecting yourself loved ones and property.


    Cops are given a lot leeway when they shoot a perceived threat like "I thought he was reaching for a weapon" deal and let off the hook even if later proved they were wrong about that assumption. So I think citizens should be too.




    I keep thunking/asking did the kid make aggressive moves/have a weapon? Then again, arm chair quarterbacking and hindsight is 20-20 ain't it?
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    Priorities ?????

    End of the castle doctrine ? etc etc

    Accurate analysis, Doc. Thanks for bringing out all the pertinent concerns here.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    waipapa13 wrote: »
    Wow, just wow Sam,
    I had a lengthy response written to this, likely would have gotten me banned, regardless, your callousness is of a depth I find incomprehensible, the cruelty and lack of compassion it would take to revel in an incident like this truly plumbs the depths of what Conrad called the heart of darkness.

    Thanks. I like all my friends to know how cruel and compassionless I can be. And especially my girlfriend, presently kicking back on the sofa and catching the news. I'll do some special Kiwi-origin cruelties to her asap.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    waipapa13 wrote: »
    ...indulge in schadenfreude...

    Keen! Schadenffreude AND "Mista Kurtz he dead." in the SAME thread!

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    Hey Sam is just the messenger so don't "Shoot" him so to speak. I think he did seem a little callous about the young man getting shot, but I believe he was trying to bring to light the laws of Texas pertaining to the Castle Doctrine.

    And the rest of the post is also very good. I was of course making light of this kid getting shot, but hey, he wasn't taken hostage and forced by ninjas to go into the child's bedroom and get into bed with her. As was said above, he decided to "be a man" and at 17 is a legal adult in Texas. He made the decision to enter the home and with the Castle Doctrine, he suffered the consequences of his adult decision.

    Maybe the father overreacted. Maybe he really, deep down, didn't actually feel threatened and decided to shoot the kid anyway. We'll never know. And as was correctly said, he'll have to live with the consequences of his action.

    But, no, I disagree. This has no impact on the Castle Doctrine and will not "see the death" of it, at least in Texas. The Treyvan Martin shooting was egregious and maybe this was too, but this incident was in a private home at 2am. Examine also the 2nd link, a guy was awakened by someone trying to get into his apartment. He armed himself, the thieves broke in, results being one dead, the other wounded and under arrest at the hospital. Things are tough all over.

    This is Texas and the sanctity of a home has been paramount always, long before any concomitant legislation. If people in Kiwiland or NuuYawk or wherever wish to lecture Texans on their gun rights, please join the long line on the left, along with all the other liberals. So sad.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 7,037 Senior Member
    Girl invites boyfriend - who's never met the family - in for a midnight booty call. Dad shows up and girl (quite possibly naked) claims not to know the kid (quite possibly naked also). Dad thinks he's shooting a rapist.

    OK. . .that's one story. Could also be Dad knew exactly what his daughter was doing, applied some basic, rage-induced law of the jungle, and the girl's supposed lie to her dad was actually cooked up for the benefit of the responding cops while the smoke was still clearing.

    Or some other version of events - the facts will probably remain muddy on this one. Long and short though: it does not matter if you're a deer, lion, elk, or human - horny adolescent mammals are stupid whatever the species, and parent mammals are often stupidly protective. As such, this is probably not a case to re-evaluate Castle Doctrine over.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • 1965Jeff1965Jeff Senior Member Posts: 1,611 Senior Member
    As distasteful the end result is, now all the cards have been played, from the information the father had at the time of the actual shooting he told the intruder to cease movement. The dead guy moved, apparently to his end. If he had only said the young ladies name etc. etc. it's all spilled milk now. If the same situation occurred here? Whose to say what outcome would happen, I hope I am never in that same situation.
  • waipapa13waipapa13 Senior Member Posts: 710 Senior Member
    It's not the gun rights that I objected to, or Texas, Sam, that's a fairly weak canned response, I'm fully in support of the Castle doctrine, my line of thinking was something along the lines of, of all the hills on which to make your stand, you picked this one, and then made light of what is fairly tragic for all parties.

    As for kiwi-origin cruelties, well I hope you don't force her to watch Lord of the Rings, making her watch that trash certainly would be.

    Anyway, never the twain shall meet, not a chance of us seeing eye to eye and that's why we come here, have a good day, I'm gonna check cyclone damage on my house so yours will surely be better than mine I reckon.
  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,246 Senior Member
    1965Jeff wrote: »
    I hope I am never in that same situation.

    :that: As the father of two daughters, I am in this camp.
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,660 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    OK. . .that's one story. Could also be Dad knew exactly what his daughter was doing, applied some basic, rage-induced law of the jungle, and the girl's supposed lie to her dad was actually cooked up for the benefit of the responding cops while the smoke was still clearing.

    There lies the problem. You have folks like Sam jumping up and down with joy over the death of a young man trying to get some tail from a girl that let him in the house. You have know idea if the father killed that boy just because he was doing his daughter. This law that I do like, also opens the window for outright murder. Threatening move just what was that? Going for the window or reaching for his pants. I am torn with this law, To much leeway.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • 5280 shooter II5280 shooter II Senior Member Posts: 3,923 Senior Member
    I think her social calender is gonna be pretty empty for sometime........."OMG, y'all never think about a girl's feelings! You just don't understand, you don't get it, you're old!" "and you're underage, undermyroof, undermycare......."
    God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,407 Senior Member
    OK, let's apply the classic southern plantation quail hunter's definition of sportsmanship- - - - - -did he use a Parker best-grade double barrel, and did he shoot him "on the rise"? If so, no harm, no foul! (Now, that's crass!)
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
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