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Concealed Carry on Military Bases

centermass556centermass556 Senior MemberPosts: 3,534 Senior Member
General Keane brought up an Issue...If everyone carries and something happens, how are the first responders gonna know who is who...

I have my thoughts on this, I wanna hear some others..
"To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
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Replies

  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,891 Senior Member
    My initial response is that if folks are carrying where a mass shooting occurs, how are the first responders going to know who is who?
    I'm just here for snark.
  • 104RFAST104RFAST Senior Member Posts: 1,281 Senior Member
    By the time the first responders arrive it should be over with!!
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,891 Senior Member
    104RFAST wrote: »
    By the time the first responders arrive it should be over with!!
    Agreed. Depending on the MOS, I would think that the REAL first responders (those CCW holders at the shooting site) may be a little trained in working as a team to take out a combatant and know how to go against the bad guy.
    I'm just here for snark.
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 25,146 Senior Member
    Interesting side note:

    It is or can be authorized. Navy Regs provide for such for the Navy and Marines and I would think there are similar Regs for the others.

    It would be a paperwork nightmare and no Commander is going to stick his neck out and do so.

    Easier would be to have everyone carry their T/O weapon and AMMO.

    However, all the factors that lead up to all weapons locked in an armory instead of your wall locker or unlocked racks in the open squad bay
    would be present and in some units it would be a blood bath. When there is not a common enemy the guy that looks cross eyed at you becomes the enemy.

    I'd like to see concealed carry on base
    shoot, I'd settle for being able to bring my guns on base cased and unloaded. Hunting guns during hunting season
    are not referenced here.

    I'm just hoping the powers that be do not restrict gun possession and storage in on base family quarters.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    If a person started shooting unarmed people, I believe the CCW folks would have the situation in hand long before the military police showed up.

    On a side note, maybe the military bases should have a program like what was in place aboard ships when I was in the Navy. There were two armed people on watch while in port; the petty officer of the watch on the quarterdeck, and the roving patrol watch. If an intruder alert was sounded, there would be no less than 5 designated people who would assemble at the small arms locker on the 01 level to receive a 1911 and a M14 and ammo. They would then proceed to seek out and, if necessary, shoot the intruder to doll rags. The base police would be tasked with trying to collect enough ID on what was left to identify the intruder.

    The same kind of system could be set up on the military bases. I know that some are huge sprawling complexes, but designating select people on duty to respond, and having arms lockers scattered strategically across the base for them to assemble, arm, and respond would be possible. It's an easy system to set up and response time would be rapid. And having designated people daily serving watch as equivalent to the Navy roving patrol watch would further shorten response time. It worked well when I served; no reason it couldn't work now.
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  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 8,000 Senior Member
    Arm the fire watch. 1 Rifle, 1 magazine each.

    Small arms locker in every building with 2 rifles and 4 magazines. Duty NCO has the key during the day, turned in to OOD at close of operations, checked out 1st in AM, OOD does rounds to pass them out.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • JeeperJeeper Senior Member Posts: 2,954 Senior Member
    NN wrote: »
    Interesting side note:

    It is or can be authorized. Navy Regs provide for such for the Navy and Marines and I would think there are similar Regs for the others.

    It would be a paperwork nightmare and no Commander is going to stick his neck out and do so.

    Easier would be to have everyone carry their T/O weapon and AMMO.

    However, all the factors that lead up to all weapons locked in an armory instead of your wall locker or unlocked racks in the open squad bay
    would be present and in some units it would be a blood bath.
    When there is not a common enemy the guy that looks cross eyed at you becomes the enemy.

    I'd like to see concealed carry on base
    shoot, I'd settle for being able to bring my guns on base cased and unloaded. Hunting guns during hunting season
    are not referenced here.

    I'm just hoping the powers that be do not restrict gun possession and storage in on base family quarters.

    Bullshiznit.

    Luis
    Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    If a person started shooting unarmed people, I believe the CCW folks would have the situation in hand long before the military police showed up.

    On a side note, maybe the military bases should have a program like what was in place aboard ships when I was in the Navy. There were two armed people on watch while in port; the petty officer of the watch on the quarterdeck, and the roving patrol watch. If an intruder alert was sounded, there would be no less than 5 designated people who would assemble at the small arms locker on the 01 level to receive a 1911 and a M14 and ammo. They would then proceed to seek out and, if necessary, shoot the intruder to doll rags. The base police would be tasked with trying to collect enough ID on what was left to identify the intruder.

    The same kind of system could be set up on the military bases. I know that some are huge sprawling complexes, but designating select people on duty to respond, and having arms lockers scattered strategically across the base for them to assemble, arm, and respond would be possible. It's an easy system to set up and response time would be rapid. And having designated people daily serving watch as equivalent to the Navy roving patrol watch would further shorten response time. It worked well when I served; no reason it couldn't work now.

    :that:

    I agree, the real first responders will be the CCW people at the scene, and here's my take on it. If the perp is shooting at you and others you know to be innocent victims you take action. That action is whatever it takes to stop the perp from injuring- killing anyone or anymore if he's already shot someone. It won't or shouldn't be a snap judgment deal unless you know some of those on the scene to be innocent. A CCW carrier on a base in proximity to a shooting should know enough of those involved to know who is the perp and who is getting shot. Shoot the one killing the innocents.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    Agreed. Depending on the MOS, I would think that the REAL first responders (those CCW holders at the shooting site) may be a little trained in working as a team to take out a combatant and know how to go against the bad guy.

    Yes! These are my thoughts. Also, if you are at the scene and not dead yet, you will know who is shooting at you. The question of how you would know which is the bad guy, the cops or MPs wouldn't know anymore than that either.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    General Keane brought up an Issue...If everyone carries and something happens, how are the first responders gonna know who is who...

    I have my thoughts on this, I wanna hear some others..

    I have my reservations about it like you do Top. Maybe senior NCOs and selected officers (Warrant Officers :tooth: of course).

    Problem is if they decide to go nuts at their work place, they will already know the ins and outs, the layout and who is carrying openly. Concealed may make it harder if they didn't know.

    Like getting shot by first police responders is also a possibly, like y'all said.

    I'm on the fence and not sure if would have made any difference in the two FHTX cases.

    I'm sure you have soldiers you had rather not be armed at work.

    Maybe special training and like Sky Marshals...no one would know?
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    The way it worked aboard ship when I was in was pretty simple. The ones trusted with first responder duty (Guard Force) were selected for that duty and went through a vetting process to be selected. It was enlisted ranks only; no officers. :tooth: You had to go through the psych eval and some other testing, and were constantly evaluated. Start acting like you were a half bubble off plumb, and you were eliminated from the Guard Force permanently; happened to a couple of guys on my ship. This duty was in addition to your normal duties and was a separate watch standing routine. I got selected as an E-3 for that, and stayed on that additional watch standing duty for the duration of my enlistment.

    Bonus was we got to shoot a LOT for qualification! :tooth:
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 25,146 Senior Member
    Jeeper wrote: »
    Bullshiznit.

    Luis
    You haven't beet stationed at the French Creek area of Camp Lejeune.

    And the orginal reason the weapons were put in armories was disappearing weapons.

    Always nice to have great thought responses from people in the know.
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 25,146 Senior Member
    Don't forget that Military Law can be overruled by Fed and State laws if the crime warrants.

    So CCW does not make someone the police on Base or off Base so any actions would have to be immediate local self defense,
    not high diddle diddle up the middle in the attack.
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,534 Senior Member
    In the real army...Every BCT has a MP unit. It is either in the BSB or the BSTB. They would be the same as having MAs on a ship...they don't have a real function until deployment. Those would be the first Soldiers Armed if we went to arming Soldiers to be active security measures. The Garrison MPs on an Installation are glorified campus police for the most part. Among many issues with them, their response time is way to slow.

    As 1SG Here, I have been threatened by a Soldier who later was found to have a pistol in his car. I am sure it happens more than I know. In fact, I am sure I may have a couple people in my ranks that actively carry now...while in uniform, day to day. I have worked with Soldiers in the past that have.

    I think if there was a question as to who was carring and who wasn't, a shooter would have to be extremely stupid or extremely calculating. Stupid would be opening fire and take your chances on who in the vincinty can stop you...Calculating would be planing your attack like you would a offensive engagement. anyone with the right skills sets can take a five minute look at a place on google earth and start their OCOKA analysis. any team leader in a combat MOS should be able to do it. But, I don't the calculating guys are the ones we really have to worry about. It is the desperate and stupid.

    Another issue is the Army Policy on an Active Shooter. That policy is to run and hide. This bother me a great deal, especially when the warrior ethos they want to enforce says to close the distance and finsish the fight. So if I carry on post, is the army going to hem me up for going against policy?

    Ned, I don't know about Marine bases, but I do know on Army, Navy, and Airforce bases you can bring documented weapons on to the installtion for hunting and shooting. The process is pretty simple (register them at the gate, get told how to properly carry them on the installion). BUT< I also now lately a lot of stuff has been pushed down to commander prerogative now.
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 25,146 Senior Member
    Ned, I don't know about Marine bases, but I do know on Army, Navy, and Airforce bases you can bring documented weapons on to the installtion for hunting and shooting. The process is pretty simple (register them at the gate, get told how to properly carry them on the installion). BUT< I also now lately a lot of stuff has been pushed down to commander prerogative now.

    Was that way here and everywhere until that Psychiatrist Maj shot up Ft Hood.
    Now only those that live on base can register non hunting guns.
    Hunting guns can be as we have hunting on the Base.

    That puts a crook in plans because one can't stop on Base on the way home from shooting.
    Also, can't bring hand guns across the base to use in the National Forrest
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 12,193 Senior Member
    Privately owned weapons are forbidden on the installation where I work. We used to keep them locked in our POV and go to the range during lunch or once I made a purchase during lunch and left it in the truck. Not allowed since the incident at Ft Hood.

    I had a difficult time giving the book correct answers to the Active Shooter training we had to take the other day. As of right now only the bad guys and DA Police have firearms.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • Pelagic KayakerPelagic Kayaker Banned Posts: 1,503 Senior Member
    I have mixed feelings about Concealed Carry on military installations. No. 1 uniformed military personnel are not private citizens. No. 2, I don't like the idea of uniformed military being armed other than for training or national defense. In fact, the Framers were adamantly opposed to an armed standing army except in time of war. Off duty, leave etc.. I have no problem whatsoever.

    Edit to add: There's a reason why private weapons are not allowed on military installations, the same why military issue arms are kept under lock and key and "no brass-no ammo" is STRICTLY ENFORCED after any weapons training at the range. ...it's a safeguard against military insurrection/coup.
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,628 Senior Member
    According to the stats, about one in six veterans returning from Asia or the Middle East suffers from some kind of mental issue, be it PTSD or whatever. Like Lopez, these heroes have not been adjudicated mentally ill, and have no trouble passing a background check, and buying guns, or getting CCW permits. One out of six. That's plenty scary.

    The solution is not CCW, but to order every Officer and every NCO to wear an issue sidearm when on duty, regardless of his assignment. Officers and sergeants are everywhere on every base, and having them armed should be enough of a deterrent, or if necessary, a solution to the problem. The Pentagon could specify, for comfort and convenience sake, a nice compact or subcompact pistol or revolver, in a handsome full flap holster.

    If CCW ends up the way to go, the Pentagon should screen soldiers for eligibility based on its own experience with mental illness/suicide and so forth, and issue a DoD-CCW permit that would enjoy nationwide reciprocity on or off base. That would be cool.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Arm the fire watch. 1 Rifle, 1 magazine each.

    Small arms locker in every building with 2 rifles and 4 magazines. Duty NCO has the key during the day, turned in to OOD at close of operations, checked out 1st in AM, OOD does rounds to pass them out.

    This sort of arrangement sounds reasonable. I've never been in the military so I can't speak to the situation personally. But what makes sense to me is a "controlled but armed" type of change, more on base armed, for certain, but not necessarily open free carry. I really don't know but you can't put a total ring of security around a base -- too large -- so you probably need more armed guards all around the place, each building that's occupied has maybe 2-3 armed?
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 25,146 Senior Member
    .

    Edit to add: There's a reason why private weapons are not allowed on military installations, the same why military issue arms are kept under lock and key and "no brass-no ammo" is STRICTLY ENFORCED after any weapons training at the range. ...it's a safeguard against military insurrection/coup.

    It just isn't so, the reason evolved differently and during my time in the USMC.
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,534 Senior Member
    Gotta kinda agree...Most of the units I have spent my time with don't really have a "no brass No ammo" shake down like at basic. Hell there was a unit when only two person accountability was the only thing needed to go to the weapons locker and then to the range. I've been able to take my firearms on and off every military installation I have been assigned to (except for the European tours).
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 25,146 Senior Member
    Shoot, I posted on this forum a picture from back in '65 of Mrs. Clean cleaning my M-14 at our off base quarters.
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 10,697 Senior Member
    Gotta kinda agree...Most of the units I have spent my time with don't really have a "no brass No ammo" shake down like at basic. Hell there was a unit when only two person accountability was the only thing needed to go to the weapons locker and then to the range. I've been able to take my firearms on and off every military installation I have been assigned to (except for the European tours).

    When we did the night fire range, out LT caught the hillside on fire with a parachute flare.... round after round cookec off.... there were whole belts of M60 ammo laying everywhere
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 25,146 Senior Member
    According to the stats, about one in six veterans returning from Asia or the Middle East suffers from some kind of mental issue
    Somebody skewed or made up those stats
    while there are some
    I just do not believe 1 in 6.
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 10,697 Senior Member
    NN wrote: »
    Somebody skewed or made up those stats
    while there are some
    I just do not believe 1 in 6.

    I don't know Ned. I would bet against one out of six people everywhere having a mental problem....

    Doesn't mean they are dangerous or can't function normally in society
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,628 Senior Member
    NN wrote: »
    Somebody skewed or made up those stats
    while there are some
    I just do not believe 1 in 6.

    If the stats are inflated, call it one in 8 or 10 or 12 - it's still way too many, and since they are still being "evaluated" nobody knows if any of them, or all of them, are dangerous. That's why I say limit open carry to on duty (cleared) Officers and NCOs, and CCW permits to personnel screened by the Pentagon using its own criteria.
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,534 Senior Member
    If you leave it up to the pentagon, the wrong people will be selected...
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    They had just stopped the requirement to register your privately owned firearms on base if you wanted to bring them on base to use the range facilities just before that terrorist major shot those people.

    Of course, registration didn't/wouldn't have stopped him anyhow, no more than registration stops crime/killing anywhere in the US. Just a feel good measure.

    So they reinstated the registration requirement after a 'bottoms-up" review of the firearms policy on FHTX.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 25,146 Senior Member
    jbp-ohio wrote: »
    I don't know Ned. I would bet against one out of six people everywhere having a mental problem....

    Doesn't mean they are dangerous or can't function normally in society

    I've seen in writing that everyone that fought in Vietnam was mentally ill to the point of being dangerous, I don't buy that either, and I know you
    don't because you came to a S EAST shoot with such people and there were guns there, too. :drool2:
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 25,146 Senior Member
    Marine shot dead yesterday in the guard house at the gate at Camp Lejeune yesterday.

    Another MP did it. Reason not released yet----seems it could have been a ND.
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