Reliability and performance expectations for a personal defense firearm...

breamfisherbreamfisher Senior MemberPosts: 13,112 Senior Member
I like my 1911s. They fit my hand well, are plenty accurate, use an acceptable chambering (.45 ACP), and are an all-around good fit for me. I don't think they're the be-all/end-all, nor do I think they're for everyone.

That being said, I've read some criticisms of the design. Mostly from polymer pistol fans who are extolling the virtues of their pretty good quality pistol.
1. It's ammo sensitive. Bad ammo or some bullet nose designs won't be as reliable. True with some 1911s, not as true with others.
2. It's magazine sensitive. Bad mags or some quality mags won't work with some makers. Definitely a critique with more than a little merit.
3. It's too heavy for the capacity. Fair enough, if that's your concern.
4. The whole issue of needing to disengage a safety.
5. Not enough capacity: can't take on lots of targets.
6. It's lubrication sensitive. Needs a certain type of lube, and more of it.
7. It needs regular inspection and parts replacement.

In thinking about these critiques, I wonder if those who are advocating their chosen design or are dismissing the 1911 are examining the intended use of the handgun with the proper "lens." For me the 1911 is a fine design for my uses, but I understand that it might not be the best for all users or uses.

Let's look at the critiques, shall we?
1. I'm carrying it for a personal defense firearm. Chances are I won't be scrounging ammo or feeding it "Big Bob's Cheapo Ammo" for use. Like most advocate, I use ammo that's been proven reliable in my firearm, and that is my carry ammo. It may take some tuning to make the LSWC ammo work, but that's practice ammo. I don't see how ammo sensitivity in a firearm that you, yourself are going to stock is an issue. Buy what works and use it.
2. Yes, the polymer pistols are less likely to get a bad magazine, but at the same time there's also less choice and less chance of getting a bad mag out there. If you're really going to bet your life on a $5.99 gun show special mag, what are the chances the firearm's been maintained properly anyhow? Is the mag sensitivity really an issue except for the cheapest folks out there? Remember, I'm talking concealed carry. Not like I'm getting mags from the armory.
3. That's really a personal preference issue to me, and it's also often stated by folks who don't use quality gear - that's why they stopped carrying the 1911 and went to a pocket carried handgun (in my experience.) Quality carry gear for a polymer pistol might be more available in the gun shop and therefore you can get it quicker, but if you're really serious, is availability that much of an issue?
4. Should you be training with your handgun anyway? Familiarity should minimize the chances of this. I used to dove hunt a lot with an 11-87. I've heard folks complain about the Remington safety being awkward compared to a tang safety (it is) but in fairness after I had some shots under my belt, I never had a problem with the safety. Don't know why this is a problem with a carry handgun if you're training properly to begin with.
5. Seriously, how many attackers will I face, realistically? I may need to reload, but the odds are pretty low. I'm not talking averages here (that's about 3-4 shots) but rather how many SD situations go past 9 rounds?
6 and 7. If you're serious about carrying a self defense handgun, should you be checking it regularly, knowledgeable about the lubrication needs, lubing when necessary, and replacing worn parts? To me that's kind of like criticizing an F-250 over a Prius because the truck needs more maintenance. So? You're supposed to maintain it...

All in all, I wonder if some folks don't pick out their self defense handguns based on the advice of military/law enforcement uses and don't realize that the needs of that environment are in some ways a harsher plane than those of the overwhelming majority of self defense users.
Overkill is underrated.
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Replies

  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 23,968 Senior Member
    :zzzz:
    cpj was right
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 7,045 Senior Member
    Point for point:

    1. Ummm. . .no. With the plethora of options for the 1911, you DO have to understand what you're putting into it. You don't have to understand the mechanics of a Glock simply because you haven't had a hundred years of yahoos ****ing around with the design to suit half a dozen different purposes (although they do seem to be catching up with some real doozies). I just ran a trial with Elmer Keith's #452423 SWC (which, with it's huge .34" meplat, many swear is a revolver-only bullet). It feeds just fine in a 1944 Colt with a 1944 magazine. A Mec Gar feeds it a little better, but most of the other "improved" modern magazines choked it. HERE'S THE CLEVER THING THOUGH: The modern HP ammo is becoming more hardball-like in its profile, and the original, tapered feed-lip style magazine is coming back into vogue. This combination gives you a controlled-round feed INTEGRATED SYSTEM, much like Paul Mauser's M98 and 8x57 duo. We seem to keep learning this simple truth - the less you sodomize John's blueprints, the better they seem to run.

    2. Again, 100 years of yahoos ****ing around with the design to suit half a dozen different purposes. Bear in mind there are also lots of crap aftermarket mags for Glocks, Sigs, Rugers, and everyone else. Nobody seems to have a problem avoiding those.

    1 and 2 elaborated: We have on the one hand a platform that won its service contract by running flawlessly through 6,000 rounds under simulated abusive conditions, despite being built with circa 1911 metallurgy. On the other hand we see that folks like Les Baer and Ed Brown can morph this same platform into a 42 ounce pocket sniper system that when placed in the right hands can consistently hit an eye socket from 50 yards away. Is it correct to fault this versatile design when the customer makes the less-than-reasonable demand to have both extremes delivered in the same box? The industry is finally starting to get their heads around the insanity of this. The customers, sadly, not as much. The end-user's are often the design's worst enemy.

    3. My 20 year old Glock 22's grip is getting worn smooth. My 90 year old Colt frame still has its original texture. Lightness costs in other areas.

    4. The manual safety allows you to deploy with a trigger that doesn't suck. No, you don't have to think about deactivating a Glock/XD/M&P safety, but the tradeoff is that you now have to manage takeup, press, AND proper reset. I'll not only remember to take off my safety, I'll shoot better than you once I do, because all MY finger is doing is firing the gun, while yours is cocking, disengaging internal safeties, etc...

    5. If you're taking on lots of targets with a handgun all at once, you're probably going to die. Decisively win one mini engagement with large, accurately-placed holes, tactically reload if necessary, then move onto the next one. If that single mini engagement takes more time than it takes you to accurately place eight rounds, you're probably going to die.

    ALSO: My magazine feed seven rounds in a straight stack. Yours has to push almost 20 in a staggered column. Any wagers on who's spring is going to choke first?

    6. You're *****ing me right? I've run them on everything from sewing machine oil to bicycle bearing grease. They don't seem to care.

    7. Here's the straight skinny: ALL guns are pieces of crap waiting to wear out and/or break on you. They're machines, and machines break - even ones that AREN'T containing a miniature explosion every time they operate. Given that, I'll take the one that's made completely of steel, running with low-pressure ammunition, can be detailed out with no tools besides itself, and is made so that most of it's potential faults can be corrected by tuning the existing, onboard parts rather than replacing parts you may or may not have spares for.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,467 Senior Member
    My EDC guns are of both genres, namely a Kimber CDP (aluminum frame, yes, but still a 1911), and an FNP45.

    I purposely got them in the same caliber so I could use the same ammo for both.

    I bought the FN specifically because I wanted a high-capacity polymer-frame carry sidearm as a compliment to the 1911, that operated much the same: the FNP can be cocked & locked, but also has the benefit of a decocker easy unloading. (not that unloading a 1911 is difficult)

    Neither of them has had issues with magazines, ammo choice (as you advise, I found some that works in both and bought a lot of it), cleaning techniques/tools/chemicals, lubrication, or reliability.

    Overall, I think the OP addresses the supposed deficiencies of the use of the 1911 well, and Bigslug's expansion on those arguments is on point.

    I think the Kimber CDP was developed with concealed carry as its purpose, given the light weight and smooth/rounded edges, forward serrations on the slide, and aggressive checkering on the grip, which addresses some of the concerns discussed. The FNP, however, wasn't developed for concealed carry, but rather for military uses where concealment is not needed, so one could argue that I am using it for a purpose not intended. It works for me.

    I don't particularly concern myself with being able to engage multiple assailants in the street with a handgun; the scenario is so unlikely as to be needless. However, as you surmise, there may be a need for re-loading if the encounter is not ended within normal parameters of rounds expended and the magazine is depleted, so I understand the desire to have more rounds available for the initial defensive action, and took that into consideration for myself. I don't think that circumstance is so presumable as to render the 1911 inadequate; like you said, it's a matter of training.

    In all, it really does come down to preference, IMO. Add to that the willingness of the individual to train with their chosen sidearm, and you have subjective/controllable elements of preparation, rather than objective/ungovernable ones.
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    bobbyrlf3 wrote: »
    My EDC guns are of both genres, namely a Kimber CDP (aluminum frame, yes, but still a 1911), and an FNP45.

    I purposely got them in the same caliber so I could use the same ammo for both.

    I bought the FN specifically because I wanted a high-capacity polymer-frame carry sidearm as a compliment to the 1911, that operated much the same: the FNP can be cocked & locked, but also has the benefit of a decocker easy unloading. (not that unloading a 1911 is difficult)

    Neither of them has had issues with magazines, ammo choice (as you advise, I found some that works in both and bought a lot of it), cleaning techniques/tools/chemicals, lubrication, or reliability.

    Overall, I think the OP addresses the supposed deficiencies of the use of the 1911 well, and Bigslug's expansion on those arguments is on point.

    I think the Kimber CDP was developed with concealed carry as its purpose, given the light weight and smooth/rounded edges, forward serrations on the slide, and aggressive checkering on the grip, which addresses some of the concerns discussed. The FNP, however, wasn't developed for concealed carry, but rather for military uses where concealment is not needed, so one could argue that I am using it for a purpose not intended. It works for me.

    I don't particularly concern myself with being able to engage multiple assailants in the street with a handgun; the scenario is so unlikely as to be needless. However, as you surmise, there may be a need for re-loading if the encounter is not ended within normal parameters of rounds expended and the magazine is depleted, so I understand the desire to have more rounds available for the initial defensive action, and took that into consideration for myself. I don't think that circumstance is so presumable as to render the 1911 inadequate; like you said, it's a matter of training.

    In all, it really does come down to preference, IMO. Add to that the willingness of the individual to train with their chosen sidearm, and you have subjective/controllable elements of preparation, rather than objective/ungovernable ones.

    I don't care what you carry. If it is not completely reliable I won't put it on my hip.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    NN wrote: »
    :zzzz:
    cpj was right

    About what? Oh, must be your afternoon nap time before supper and Wheel Of Fortune starts :jester:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    There are some superb points here and I've got no general disagreement with either "camp" as to 1911 vs polymer pistol. Myself, I'm a bit like Lawrence Olivier in Spartacus, where he says that he likes both oysters and snails. (okay, no, not exactly like that, heh heh, but you know...). In that I like both the 1911 and the newer polymer designs almost equally.

    Maintenance is a point here, and also the idea that you need to essentially rebuild a pistol (1911 mostly) before it's ready to be used. I would never purchase a gun that didn't work properly out of the box, regardless. If I go buy a new vehicle, I shouldn't need to immediately put it into the shop and spend another few thou on rebuilding the **** or injection or steering. Yes if I wanted special performance, but no if I just wanted it to perform as advertised. It should drive and handle and function "as advertised" if new. Or else I've bought the wrong car or truck.

    Likewise, the original 1911 Army model does have some minor problems, first among them being the narrow ejection port. This was an easy fix however and most any new 1911-style you buy will have that one defect corrected. And we've also got to realize that the wartime 1911 wasn't manufactured for superb and perfect functioning -- it was made for volume production and large scale use. This doesn't make it less than what it was -- the finest fighting pistol ever, and still is.

    Anyway, I think that ANY modern pistol mostly intended for self defense / LEO use needs to be reliable, first of all. It does no good to spend a couple grand on a specialty 1911 that's so tricked out that it isn't reliable and is so twerky that you constantly need to be replacing parts or adjusting things. If you're maybe buying as special purpose highly tuned target pistol, okay, an occasional jam is acceptable. But for self defense, that jam costs you your life.

    What I'm getting to is that ANY decent self defense / LEO pistol needs to be extremely reliable, and if it's gonna cost you 50% more to get your new gun into that condition, you bought the wrong gun in the first place.

    That being said, of course we need to properly maintain our weapons, just like our vehicles and other mechanical things, as was correctly said. But if "maintain" means too much tweaking and adjusting, then again, you've bought the wrong gun.

    I keep my pistols meticulously cleaned and properly lubed. That's the 1911s, the Glocks, and the XDs. All of them correctly lubed. And frankly, I take issue that the 1911 requires some sort of specialized lube different from, say, a polymer pistol. I've never had a single lube problem with my 1911s, but I've never had a single lube problem with ANY of my firearms. I use premium quality lubes and apply it as the specs say. No biggie. And if you can't afford the correct, premium lubes, hey, try a BB gun, okay?

    Ammo is never a problem for a decent gun either. That said, I've essentially converted all my SD weapons to CorBon +P PowrBall. Why? It's a top grade SD ammo that pretty well matches any other ammo, but also, the rounded nose ensures a more reliable feed in pistols w. steep feed ramps.

    Capacity? 8-9 rounds should be enough for any realistic SD scenario any of us is likely to be involved in. That said, I'm also happy with my XD 13+1 just in case. Either way, I should be capable of handling the sort of assault that most any armed citizen will face.

    Safety? Any gun we carry or use for SD should be one we're familiar with and can bring into use quickly. And we should effect the needed training and practice required. This also includes being able to pull the longer stroke DA trigger of, say, a Glock. When I practice, I always try to take at least one of each type with me (1911 SA vs "polymer" DA) and alternate, a magazine full back and forth. I make it essential that my "muscle memory" (actually brain) is fast in adjusting so I can pick up either pistol and shoot quickly and accurately.

    We all have our faves, of course. I don't think there's a better feel possible (for guns) when holding a nice 1911. Sheer joy. And although Glocks are indeed a bit clunky by comparison, it's a learned skill to be able to hold that hunkaplastic and hit the target.

    As for carry on the person, again, it's totally individual choice and there's no right or wrong SD gun to have, assuming it's 1- absoulutely reliable, 2- reasonably accurate, 3- has sufficient firepower to do the job, and MOST important, 4- you can use it effectively if necessary.

    So I find myself essentially agreeing with both bream & Big. They're all fine, folks.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    I don't care what you carry. If it is not completely reliable I won't put it on my hip.

    That's the bottom line, isn't it? You have to know that when you pull that trigger, stuff happens. It all comes down to that.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    1. It's ammo sensitive. Bad ammo or some bullet nose designs won't be as reliable. True with some 1911s, not as true with others.
    2. It's magazine sensitive. Bad mags or some quality mags won't work with some makers. Definitely a critique with more than a little merit.
    3. It's too heavy for the capacity. Fair enough, if that's your concern.
    4. The whole issue of needing to disengage a safety.
    5. Not enough capacity: can't take on lots of targets.
    6. It's lubrication sensitive. Needs a certain type of lube, and more of it.
    7. It needs regular inspection and parts replacement.

    1. This is one that I actually agree with. Discounting "specialty" ammo (competition ammo, rat shot, wunder boolits, etc...)....if your gun won't reliably feed normal "duty" and range ammo, then your gun is broken, stop denying, rationalizing, or justifying......this is a problem, fix it.

    2. Use mags that work with your gun (this very well may be a fix for #1). Fairly simple. Also understand, mags and the parts therein have a finite lifespan. Replace springs when they need it, replace followers and base-plates IF they need it, if the lips get jacked beyond repair, buy new mags or mark the bad ones VERY CLEARLY and use them for practicing remedial action.

    3. Other than pocket carry, weight has never been an issue for me. Use a quality belt and quality holster and weight won't really be an issue.

    4. For me, the thumb safety is a non issue, my firing grip has my thumb riding on top of the safety. I HATE the grip safety and have actually had instances of GSs failing to disengage when I gripped the pistol. 'Twer I forced to carry a 1911, I would tape the GS down.

    5. The little bit of F.o.F. stuff that I've done left me with two distinct impressions. Mags get empty REAL QUICK and reloading while looking down the barrel of a perfectly working gun SUCKS.

    6. Gun parts are kinda like people parts, ANY lube is more important that great lube. Sure, astro-glide is optimal but baby oil is going to be 95% as effective, and you've generally got it on hand.
    :slowpitch:

    7. If you're wanting a maintenance free weapon you're a thousand years early or a thousand years late, but either way, you're living in the wrong millennia. Granted, "regular" might differ from platform to platform......but EVERY gun out there requires upkeep.

    8. If other folks think it's stupid, but it works for you, it isn't stupid.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,106 Senior Member
    Specific to the 1911.
    I buy only mil spec magazines, and only when they are on sale or on a mil surp suppliers site. The old G.I. design works, period. They are also less expensive than the 'boutique' magazines because they aren't stainless steel, have round count holes(that you can't see when it's in the gun), and a fancy name. G.I. stamped on the mag floorplate is boutique enough for me.
    I shoot Win. White box 230 grain hollow points, and that is my carry ammo. It goes bang every time, feeds with no problems, and expands well. I also bought a poo load of those Winchester 230 gr. HP bullets and reload them for my practice ammunition.
    Only modification I've done to two of my 1911s is to replace the tiny military sights with a set of fire sights front and rear. Eyes age, and seeing the sights is important to me. They have no other modifications. I did replace the plastic grip panels on one with a set of Pachmayr grips; they look better and feel a LOT better on that pistol.

    Specific to my G26.
    It is bone stock and will stay that way. I have several 10 round magazines for it from Glock. I also have several G17 magazines for it; they fit, function without issues, and are higher capacity. I carry two of them for reloads. I don't care if they look odd hanging out the bottom of the grip; they work, and that is all I ask.

    If a modification makes the pistol more user friendly or reliable for you, then do it. If it just adds to the 'cool factor' and doesn't affect reliable functioning, then that's O.K. too.

    Gun oil and grease. It's purpose is to lubricate. Anything from Mobil 1 to the latest and greatest new product does the same thing. I'm also partial to atomized graphite in an alcohol solution for certain internal parts. It's slicker 'n' snail snot, doesn't collect dust/grit/powder residue, and works really well. I've got a 2 lb. plastic tub of the stuff, which is a several lifetimes supply. It really makes the bolt raceways on a bolt rifle slick, and doesn't give a rip what the temperature is, from screaming hot to well below 0, and it never gums up in the bolt rifle.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,072 Senior Member
    "Reliability and performance expectations for a personal defense firearm" At the basic level - It needs to go "BOOM" every time I pull the trigger and put a bullet where I point it ...once it accomplishes those two little things..everything else is just personal preference. Doesn't much matter if it's steel or plastic, revolver or auto...I'm just as comfortable toting a Vaquero, a 1911 or a polymer something or other.... Hell, in a pinch I suppose a High Point I fished out of a dumpster would work as well as anything...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Some excellent tips from everyone here. Eli, your comment on using worn mags for reload training hadn't occurred to me -- a first rate idea especially for someone teaching SD, a good tool.

    I've never had a problem with magazines. Maybe it's because I've only bought factory mags or premium quality brands.

    Oddly, I did have a problem with an early run of Glock factory mags for the G30. I bought a G30 when they first came out and then ordered 4 mags, and the follower was not properly manufactured -- the tip simply did not extend correctly to push up on the inner slide latch. So after firing the mag empty, the slide would go forward on an empty chamber. I sent the mags to Glock and they replaced them with correctly made new ones. Kinda weird because like 'em or not, Glocks do have a rep for reliability.

    eli you're also right about maintenance free -- it doesn't exist. Normal parts like mainsprings and extractors wear in time and it's expected that they get replaced. My gripe is reading about a new weapon that immediately requires a "rebuild" before it can be reliable or whatever. I'd rather spend the money up front in a better grade pistol from the beginning.

    I've never had a problem with the grip safety on a 1911. My hand always falls right in place. I do have a bit of gripe about the grip safety of my XD -- it doesn't extend long enough down the backstrap. But I got used to it and no problems afterward.

    Anyway, some great tips in this thread!

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,112 Senior Member
    Good points all. I just wonder sometimes if consumers don't begin to believe they need a super-lightweight, high-capacity firearm with relatively sloppy tolerances because "that's what the military and LE carry." My question is: is that what is really needed? Yes, it is a fine defensive firearm. But for most concealed carry use, something "lower performance" will do just as well 99+% of the time, I think.

    Heck, I can carry my Smith and Wesson Model 66 or my FN Barracuda and feel adequately armed (given enough dry fire and live fire practice.) That does bring me to the one advantage I feel the 1911 has: once you've learned how to use it, the ergonomics and trigger allow you to maintain an acceptable level of practical accuracy with less live fire practice, in my experience.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • jaywaptijaywapti Senior Member Posts: 4,526 Senior Member
    A few personal observations about CCW guns , I like steel guns, I don't own any "plastic" guns, I don't like or own any DAO. A CC gun should be of a long proven design and as close to 100% reliable as possible. The less mods it has the less likely it is to fail.
    My 2 primary carry guns are 1) a M-1911 clone, its a Ballester Molina, no grip safety and it feeds any type bullet you feed it. The only changes are better sights and I polished the feed ramp, as to mags as stated above only M-1911 US Mil. mags. and I keep a supply of extra springs onhand
    2) Charter Arms .44, no mods.
    If my gun looks dirty, it needs to be cleaned and re-lubricated, I use Tri-Flow and Molykote FS-3451 #2 consistency, it a white fluorosilicone grease, good from -40* - +450*f , a very light coat in slide rails. I use it on all semi auto wepons.
    Ammo, I use only factory ammo when I carry, that has proven itself, and practice with handloads that approximate the vel. and bullet weight of my carry ammo.

    JAY
    THE DEFINITION OF GUN CONTROL IS HITTING THE TARGET WITH YOUR FIRST SHOT
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,866 Senior Member
    I have pretty much the same reliability and performance expectations of ALL the firearms I own:

    1) I expect it to WORK. If it doesn't reliably, it either gets fixed or gets gone

    2) I expect it to put bullets somewhere close to where I intend them to go within its effective range.

    3) Since I have NOT been involved in a plethora of SD shootings (ZERO so far, to be precise) I don't burn through a lot of the premium SD ammo, so I can afford to use what I think is the "best" ammo on the market, and do.


    The above applies to any/all that I may carry, doesn't matter if it's my PM40, one of my 1911s or one of my Glocks.
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    3) Since I have NOT been involved in a plethora of SD shootings (ZERO so far, to be precise) I don't burn through a lot of the premium SD ammo, so I can afford to use what I think is the "best" ammo on the market, and do.

    Agreed, with a small added comment. It's not a factor about being in SD shootings. I think that very few of us here (as civilians) have ever actually been involved in a "real" situation where we either "presented" our weapon or may have fired it.

    There seems to be some sort of underthread that you have to shoot 10,000 rounds of your SD ammo per month just to be competent with it. We've all read postings that imply that, and you need to immediately set up a small ammunition factory in your rec room to crank out a zillion rounds of "that special" ammo or else you can't rely on the ammo.

    My personal experience says different. I've shot maybe a box per range visit of the premium SD ammo (CorBon or Talon or whatever) and it really didn't take me long to become acclimated to the +P recoil. You have to concentrate and learn as you go, of course. But IF your SD ammo is of good quality, you can rely on its being consistent and you really don't have to shoot that much of it. If you can't afford a few boxes of the premium stuff, well, maybe a BB gun is more suitable.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Interesting comments Brim. Don't thunk too hard on something or you will get a headache. I do :conehead: :tooth:

    Also, a person needs to LIKE and have CONFIDENCE in their gun/equipment regardless of make or caliber.

    I didn't particularly like my Gas Mask in basic, but I had confidence in it after I had to remove it and suck in some CS gas being cheered on by our DI.

    But, I did take care of every version/model of a protective mask I was ever issued for the next 20 years, knew how to dawn it and protective clothing/boots/gloves as well as the NBC gear I was issued as a deployed civilian.

    Cost aside, I gotta like/be confident in a gun before I will depend on it or I should say as MY choice. Don't care what any gun scribe/friend/SD instructor has to say.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    You're right, Big. So long as the gun is reasonably accurate and totally reliable, it makes no real difference which it is, but it's essential that you feel comfortable with it.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,628 Senior Member
    My reliability and performance expectations are no different for a personal defense firearm than they are for any other. Any gun that isn't acceptably accurate for it's type and purpose, and isn't absolutely reliable regardless, is sold or traded.
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 7,045 Senior Member
    "Absolutely reliable"

    "Utterly reliable"

    "Totally reliable"

    That level of childish optimism is just cheek-pinchingly adorable! You guys obviously need to shoot more.:tooth:

    Somebody invents one of those and I'm out of a job!
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Mmm, Bigslug, after about 7 years of ownership and many hundreds of rounds, my Springfield XD Tactical has NEVER misfed once. And my Springfield "Operator" 1911 (avatar)? Zero misfeeds as well.

    I only use premium whitebox or SD ammo, and keep the guns properly lubed and meticulously clean, true, but still, even though I may be pushing the stats, zero problems ever.

    So Big, maybe you should look for an expansion into other work, cause I don't think I'll be dropping off either pistol for fixin' just yet. (kidding you of course)

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    "Absolutely reliable"

    "Utterly reliable"

    "Totally reliable"

    That level of childish optimism is just cheek-pinchingly adorable! You guys obviously need to shoot more.:tooth:

    Flawless.....I like flawless.

    "Thas lil baby rite chere.......she's got over a DOZEN flawless rounds through 'er."

    :tooth:
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    Mmm, Bigslug, after about 7 years of ownership and many hundreds of rounds, my Springfield XD Tactical has NEVER misfed once. And my Springfield "Operator" 1911 (avatar)? Zero misfeeds as well.

    How many?
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    "Absolutely reliable"

    "Utterly reliable"

    "Totally reliable"

    That level of childish optimism is just cheek-pinchingly adorable! You guys obviously need to shoot more.:tooth:

    Somebody invents one of those and I'm out of a job!

    Thank god I'm going for completely reliable.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Dang it, if the cotton picker shoots and you like shootin it, keep it and if anyone disagrees offer to let them play Russian Roulette with it. A suckers bet with a semi-automatic pistol......:tooth::jester:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Eli wrote: »
    How many?

    Oodles and oodles, to use a technical term. Equivalent to 4.305 "Sagans" (per Carl Sagan's "millions and billions")

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 7,045 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    Thank god I'm going for completely reliable.

    Now if we could just catch Wolverine and make a pistol out of his skeleton, that would handle the breakage issues. Then we journey to the Hundred Acre Wood, whack Tigger, and render his extra-bouncy butt down for ever-lasting coil springs. Next, we lube the gun with some kind of Star-Trekkian nano-bot that seeks out and eats carbon and poops Teflon. For rust prevention, we dig up Dick Clark's body and coat the pistol with his skin.

    That's about as impervious as I can come up with. . .
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    Oodles and oodles, to use a technical term. Equivalent to 4.305 "Sagans" (per Carl Sagan's "millions and billions")

    Reminds me of a John Prine song "Oodles of light what a beautiful sight Both of God's eyes are shining tonight."
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 23,968 Senior Member
    Pistols shooting flawless
    who cares


    I don't mind blemished ammo


    But, flawless is pretty though.
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,072 Senior Member
    Another thought from a different direction - When it's all said and done, I guess I'm really more interested in how the firearm functions when it's been rode hard and neglected than how it functions when it's been "meticulously" maintained. I mean, if I can depend on that sucker when it's coated in dust and has a gob of cow crap hanging on the rear sight - I've got no worries at all when it's clean.....

    I'm not advocating not cleaning your sidearm, but if the best you can do at the moment is slosh it around in a stock tank, blow it off with an air compressor then wipe it off with a greasy rag......Well...I still want it to work until I can tend to it properly.
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,866 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    Another thought from a different direction - When it's all said and done, I guess I'm really more interested in how the firearm functions when it's been rode hard and neglected than how it functions when it's been "meticulously" maintained. I mean, if I can depend on that sucker when it's coated in dust and has a gob of cow crap hanging on the rear sight - I've got no worries at all when it's clean.....

    I'm not advocating not cleaning your sidearm, but if the best you can do at the moment is slosh it around in a stock tank, blow it off with an air compressor then wipe it off with a greasy rag......Well...I still want it to work until I can tend to it properly.
    Well, you remember what Eli and I did to a couple of our Glocks a few years ago.
    Took some serious abuse to get them to choke, and just rinsing them in tub of water pretty much got them both running again
    [video=youtube_share;6LACmjzBVOo]
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


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