Why does Dept of Ag. need these?

2

Replies

  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,458 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    Someone might get sick from raw milk.

    So we should shoot them BEFORE they try it, you know, so they don't get sick.

    FIFY.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • North ForestNorth Forest Member Posts: 311 Member
    Ever see the film "The Andromeda Strain" ? US Ag farms are where they hide the secret underground facilities. BTW the elevator is in the tool shed.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    It's called Operation Cornhole................really it's a game cpj! :tooth::rotflmao::rotflmao:


    http://www.playcornhole.org/rules.shtml
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Of course they need body armor too!

    You can't go Agritactical without a decent vest! Need to protect themselves from Pitch Forks and such.


    Dept. of Agriculture Orders Ballistic Body Armor

    http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/05/15/Dept-of-Agriculture-Orders-Ballistic-Body-Armor
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,731 Senior Member
    Subguns and body armor...close proximity gear.

    Either they are preparing for something (I know many of you doubt this) or they are wasting our money.

    No need for subguns & body armor when shooting hogs or trapping nuisance animals or investigating import/export violations.

    Employees should be fired when they threaten their employer or waste his money.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,103 Senior Member
    I can understand the body armor for dealing with poachers, pot growers, and others engaged in illegal activities on federal land. Still ain't figured out the subguns. I know that locally wildlife LEOs have been fired at, so I won't begrudge the LEOs for wearing body armor.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,731 Senior Member
    I can understand the body armor for dealing with poachers, pot growers, and others engaged in illegal activities on federal land. Still ain't figured out the subguns. I know that locally wildlife LEOs have been fired at, so I won't begrudge the LEOs for wearing body armor.

    Wildlife LEOs that wear level IIIA body armor are wasting tax dollars. IIIA won't stop a rifle round, which most poachers use.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,103 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    Wildlife LEOs that wear level IIIA body armor are wasting tax dollars. IIIA won't stop a rifle round, which most poachers use.
    True, but most agencies require the use of body armor, and some won't pay death benefits if the proper protective equipment is not used. Nevermind that the equipment is ineffective or may cause greater problems than it "solves." Then there's the fact that if a poacher is using a scoped rifle, he/she can just go for a head shot...
    It's a bad paradox: we won't take care of your family if you don't use the mandated, ineffective protective measures.

    For the pot growers and others the armor is effective, depending on what they use and where they shoot.

    Quick question: what protective measures do y'all think would be appropriate for wildlife LEOs and others who would be enforcing game and land use laws on public lands? If they show up wearing ceramic plate armor and ballistic helmets, how many of the public would worry about militarization of law enforcement?
    Overkill is underrated.
  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,246 Senior Member
    I don't begrudge them the body armor, ineffective or not it is better than a t-shirt. I have to question the purchase of sub-machine guns. As has been stated before I would think that some sort of AR or M-Forgery would be a better bang for the buck.
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,106 Senior Member

    Quick question: what protective measures do y'all think would be appropriate for wildlife LEOs and others who would be enforcing game and land use laws on public lands?

    Speaking from personal experience only; your experiences may be different.
    1. Local people know what's going on. How about treating them like something a little better than something that got stepped in walking through the feed lot. I quit calling in poachers because of the ration of **** I got from EVERY TWRA officer that came out. Treat me like crap; you're on your own.
    2. Stop acting like imperial storm troopers when checking licenses, etc. Treating the public like crap makes more enemies than friends.
    3. When going after hard core poachers of game and fish, they need the vests, but they need to carefully choose their ground to brace the suspects that they know are armed. As in wait until they are in their vehicle and more than one officer show up at the same time from different directions. It's going to be a dangerous situation; having them surrounded and blocked off would help. Hardcore poachers around these parts will run if that option is available, but give up if they can't. They'd rather not die if that is an option.

    I've had a few run-ins with USFS personnel when I was obeying the law and minding my own business. I wouldn't pizz on one of them if they were on fire. Example: I was picking up trash along a road at one of my favorite spots, and USFS truck pulled up behind my truck. Tart walked up to me with his hand on his pistol butt and asked me what I was doing (DUH, I'm dragging a half full 30 gallon trash bag stuffing trash in it as he approaches). He talked 'down' to me the entire encounter, his hand never left his pistol butt, and he came off as an arrogant government prefect arsehat. That type encounter has been repeated several times over the years. First impression might be a fluke; same thing several times by several different individuals indicates a pattern.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,246 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    Speaking from personal experience only; your experiences may be different.
    1. Local people know what's going on. How about treating them like something a little better than something that got stepped in walking through the feed lot. I quit calling in poachers because of the ration of **** I got from EVERY TWRA officer that came out. Treat me like crap; you're on your own.
    2. Stop acting like imperial storm troopers when checking licenses, etc. Treating the public like crap makes more enemies than friends.
    3. When going after hard core poachers of game and fish, they need the vests, but they need to carefully choose their ground to brace the suspects that they know are armed. As in wait until they are in their vehicle and more than one officer show up at the same time from different directions. It's going to be a dangerous situation; having them surrounded and blocked off would help. Hardcore poachers around these parts will run if that option is available, but give up if they can't. They'd rather not die if that is an option.

    I've had a few run-ins with USFS personnel when I was obeying the law and minding my own business. I wouldn't pizz on one of them if they were on fire. Example: I was picking up trash along a road at one of my favorite spots, and USFS truck pulled up behind my truck. Tart walked up to me with his hand on his pistol butt and asked me what I was doing (DUH, I'm dragging a half full 30 gallon trash bag stuffing trash in it as he approaches). He talked 'down' to me the entire encounter, his hand never left his pistol butt, and he came off as an arrogant government prefect arsehat. That type encounter has been repeated several times over the years. First impression might be a fluke; same thing several times by several different individuals indicates a pattern.

    :that: Remembering who they work for would be a start.
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,103 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    Speaking from personal experience only; your experiences may be different.
    1. Local people know what's going on. How about treating them like something a little better than something that got stepped in walking through the feed lot. I quit calling in poachers because of the ration of **** I got from EVERY TWRA officer that came out. Treat me like crap; you're on your own.
    2. Stop acting like imperial storm troopers when checking licenses, etc. Treating the public like crap makes more enemies than friends.
    3. When going after hard core poachers of game and fish, they need the vests, but they need to carefully choose their ground to brace the suspects that they know are armed. As in wait until they are in their vehicle and more than one officer show up at the same time from different directions. It's going to be a dangerous situation; having them surrounded and blocked off would help. Hardcore poachers around these parts will run if that option is available, but give up if they can't. They'd rather not die if that is an option.

    I've had a few run-ins with USFS personnel when I was obeying the law and minding my own business. I wouldn't pizz on one of them if they were on fire. Example: I was picking up trash along a road at one of my favorite spots, and USFS truck pulled up behind my truck. Tart walked up to me with his hand on his pistol butt and asked me what I was doing (DUH, I'm dragging a half full 30 gallon trash bag stuffing trash in it as he approaches). He talked 'down' to me the entire encounter, his hand never left his pistol butt, and he came off as an arrogant government prefect arsehat. That type encounter has been repeated several times over the years. First impression might be a fluke; same thing several times by several different individuals indicates a pattern.
    Points 1 and 2 and your final experiences, while valid, don't really address the question. But I have met with a few folks who probably should not have made it through the selection process, IMHO. On the other hand, if you'd pay more maybe you could go deeper into the recruitment pool.... That being said, those seem to be a training issue. Oddly, I can get better respect from a small-town cop because, well, they've been trained to act right. In my experience the feds can be a bit arrogant when they're on the job. The hand on the gun is something I've only seen in the Barney Fifes of the world. Or campus law enforcement. Most of the more professional officers keep their gun hand near the gun, but not on it.

    As for point 3, most of the folks I know who've done poaching busts do tend to try to do their busts in remote areas so that if things go sideways, they don't endanger the public more than is absolutely necessary.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,731 Senior Member
    Quick question: what protective measures do y'all think would be appropriate for wildlife LEOs and others who would be enforcing game and land use laws on public lands? If they show up wearing ceramic plate armor and ballistic helmets, how many of the public would worry about militarization of law enforcement?

    I don't care that they wear vests, but I grow tired of paying for gear that is rarely, if ever used. When you don't have to pay for your equipment, there is no need need for actual risk assessment. Hypothetically, there is a 0.001 percent chance that a wildlife officer will be shot, so EVERY officer is mandated a vest at taxpayer's expense.

    How much does the vest adversely affect the normal daily duties of an officer? Is the real reason the F&G guys are such dicks is because they wear vests all day in the heat and humidity?
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,103 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    I don't care that they wear vests, but I grow tired of paying for gear that is rarely, if ever used. When you don't have to pay for your equipment, there is no need need for actual risk assessment. Hypothetically, there is a 0.001 percent chance that a wildlife officer will be shot, so EVERY officer is mandated a vest at taxpayer's expense.

    How much does the vest adversely affect the normal daily duties of an officer? Is the real reason the F&G guys are such dicks is because they wear vests all day in the heat and humidity?
    I don't know about federal, but all the Florida wildlife officers I know wear a vest when in uniform. All of them. So at least here in FL, I'm paying for gear that's being used.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,731 Senior Member
    I don't know about federal, but all the Florida wildlife officers I know wear a vest when in uniform. All of them. So at least here in FL, I'm paying for gear that's being used.

    Used, but 0.001% needed.

    I didn't make that point clear.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,103 Senior Member
    Within the last 5 years one FWC officer has been shot, and another 10 or 12 have been involved in apprehending 2 suspects who where holed up in the woods and have shot and killed LEOs. I don't know how that shakes out with a "percent needed" ratio, but Florida has over 800 officers. And those are just ones that I can recall quickly. They also tend to get called in when a suspect goes into the woods and they need help doing a search.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,731 Senior Member
    Within the last 5 years one FWC officer has been shot, and another 10 or 12 have been involved in apprehending 2 suspects who where holed up in the woods and have shot and killed LEOs. I don't know how that shakes out with a "percent needed" ratio, but Florida has over 800 officers. And those are just ones that I can recall quickly. They also tend to get called in when a suspect goes into the woods and they need help doing a search.

    The officer that was shot, did the vest save his/her life?

    In my world, standoffs would be handled by a "traditional" SWAT team. If you got a guy holed up in the woods, bring in the van and give the LEOs ceramic and helmets and they get their criminal with proper PPE. Wearing a IIIA vest all day, every day is statisically pointless.

    I can see why street cops wear them, because they encounter handguns MOST of the time. F&G deals with fishermen and riflemen. No need for IIIA in this scenario.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,103 Senior Member
    The vest did save the officer's life. Well, that and a challenge coin.

    There is an oft-cited by F&G LE agency study done by the FBI that says that F&G officers are 9 times more likely to be assaulted with a weapon. (The citations refer to deadly weapons, but what good is a weapon if it's not deadly?) I can't find the study itself, but depending on what sort of "deadly weapon" is used, the vest's protection may be moot or relevant.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    The officer that was shot, did the vest save his/her life?

    In my world, standoffs would be handled by a "traditional" SWAT team. If you got a guy holed up in the woods, bring in the van and give the LEOs ceramic and helmets and they get their criminal with proper PPE. Wearing a IIIA vest all day, every day is statisically pointless.

    I can see why street cops wear them, because they encounter handguns MOST of the time. F&G deals with fishermen and riflemen. No need for IIIA in this scenario.

    Actually, not pointless.

    The vest also protects you from...

    Blunt force trauma
    Crash impact trauma (seat belt, steering wheel)
    Laceration infliction (glass, swinging knives)
    Hand and foot strikes
    Spinal trauma

    The vest protects us from WAY more injury than just bullets.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    USDABLMBATFIRSICEDILLIGAFABCDEFGIJKLMNOP. Any federal agency with acronyms must be armed.

    You cite ICE in your sarcasm.

    Of ALL federal agencies I have zero respect for, ICE and Border Patrol aren't among them.

    ICE and BP agents need to be armed by the very nature of their job.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,731 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    Actually, not pointless.

    The vest also protects you from...

    Blunt force trauma
    Crash impact trauma (seat belt, steering wheel)
    Laceration infliction (glass, swinging knives)
    Hand and foot strikes
    Spinal trauma

    The vest protects us from WAY more injury than just bullets.


    Ok, I'll accept that. So tell me why USDA needs subguns?
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,731 Senior Member
    The vest did save the officer's life. Well, that and a challenge coin.

    Seriously? The bullet struck a challenge coin?
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    Ok, I'll accept that. So tell me why USDA needs subguns?

    I dunno.

    I was speaking to the vests.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    Seriously? The bullet struck a challenge coin?

    Challenge accepted.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,103 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    Seriously? The bullet struck a challenge coin?
    Yeah, he was on the agency's SWAT-like team, and one bullet hit him in the rear and was stopped by a challenge coin. He was shot with a .45.

    Dude got ripped up pretty bad. Bullets broke his left humerus and went through his right hand. He wound up grabbing his backup pistol with his left hand, then using his right arm to get the pistol up into a semi-shooting position.

    Note: this helps to show that a hit from a .45 into a non-vital area is NOT going to kill you.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    Yeah, he was on the agency's SWAT-like team, and one bullet hit him in the rear and was stopped by a challenge coin. He was shot with a .45.

    Dude got ripped up pretty bad. Bullets broke his left humerus and went through his right hand. He wound up grabbing his backup pistol with his left hand, then using his right arm to get the pistol up into a semi-shooting position.

    Note: this helps to show that a hit from a .45 into a non-vital area is NOT going to kill you.

    Most hits in non-immediately vital zones with pistols are survivable, blood loss notwithstanding.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,103 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    Most hits in non-immediately vital zones with pistols are survivable, blood loss notwithstanding.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk
    You've obviously not been offered a sample of the .45 ACP Kool-Aid...
    Overkill is underrated.
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,731 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    Most hits in non-immediately vital zones with pistols are survivable, blood loss notwithstanding.

    I sat on a jury where the accused was shot twice in the chest by two different cops, one 9mm to the left lung and one 45 ACP just below the right collar bone. He took off his shirt to show the jury the scars. Both rounds exited his back. He ran almost three blocks after he was shot. The EMT testified that once they inflated his lung, he tried to run again, but he was cuffed. Skinny little gangbanger. That trial made me re-think everything I'd read about cartridges and gunfights and what it takes to put an assailant down.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    I sat on a jury where the accused was shot twice in the chest by two different cops, one 9mm to the left lung and one 45 ACP just below the right collar bone. He took off his shirt to show the jury the scars. Both rounds exited his back. He ran almost three blocks after he was shot. The EMT testified that once they inflated his lung, he tried to run again, but he was cuffed. Skinny little gangbanger. That trial made me re-think everything I'd read about cartridges and gunfights and what it takes to put an assailant down.

    Yup.

    It's why we train for center of the center mass. I want lead-in-heart and as much as possible, fast.

    If a standoff type matter, I'm putting a 75gr 5.56 TAP round square through the bridge of his nose. Bye-bye Medulla Oblongata and spinal cord.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • gunwalkergunwalker Member Posts: 470 Member
    Just wondering, could this be part of the alleged effort by the feds to buy so much ammo that the price for civilians is prohibitive? Also creating a shortage in the civilian market in the name of government necessity? Doesnt it seem too coincidental that so many agencies are ordering guns and ammo? Just wondering if this is part of O,bamas "I have a pen and a phone" strategy?
    We do not view the world as it is, but as we perceive it to be.
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