Former German Nazis and Their Secret Army

DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior MemberPosts: 3,353 Senior Member
http://www.iht.com/2014/05/14/nazi-veterans-created-illegal-army/

Der Spiegel recently published an article about the discovery of a secret German army that formed when Germany fell and was occupied by the 4 primary allied nations. It's a pretty long article and alludes to the existence of an unofficial group of former German officers who formed this secret army. I believe I met one of them.

In 1986 I was in a room that had once been a secret room in a home in a little burg of Mappershain (sp) located a little west of Bad Schwalbach in the Taunus mountains. The occasion was, my German girlfriend at the time, decided to share a secret with me, since I'd accidentally discovered a "very dangerous" place in the woods near their home.

While walking her dog, affectionately named "Einstein," because it was so terrifically stupid, I discovered a vertical cave, a natural hole that resembled a mine shaft, that had no security fence around it. When I dropped rocks in it, I didn't hear them hit anything.

I told Barbel about it and she made me promise I wouldn't tell anyone about it. Of course, I sort of kept the secret for a while, but like you, I'm sure most people find the whole story of a secret German army sort of fantasy like. The problem is, until the late 60s to early 70s, it was true.

Barbel was a generous girl who offered me a lot of interesting WWII memorabilia, some of which I recently sold, some Nazi marked dishes from a military dining hall. I actually told her, with some regret, that I could not accept her father's Luger or his Iron Cross (but only because I had no idea how I'd get the Luger home).

Anyway, I digress. When I told her about the hole in the ground, she told me that was where the "weapons" had been dumped when she was little girl. One night, the men of the village came and opened the wall and removed hundreds of guns and the ammunition for them. By morning, there was a regular door in place of the secret panel, and the room had become a bedroom. She didn't know what happened that caused such a panic, but the men appeared very scared and it happened literally overnight. Her father never spoke of it and wouldn't answer questions about it.

I knew a couple of her older uncles - one of whom had served as an officer as had her father, and he told me after the war, fearing Soviet invasion, an "unofficial" but very structured 'national militia' was formed - at first without the American occupiers knowing, but later, with their knowledge and in some cases, monetary and military support.

Military weapons were stashed in secret places around the country, to be used in the event the Soviets attempted invasion. Modeled a little like our revolutionary forefathers. In addition to the weapons, were piles of uniforms that had been worn by the men of the villages (hopefully they still fit.)

In the course of a single night, the little village of Mappershain demilitarized, for a reason no one has yet been able to explain to me and I'm no longer in a position to ask - and of course, those old Nazis still living are the kind of guys to take some secrets to their graves.

So, not only do I believe the Der Spiegel article, I believe I met some of its members.

Also, the US was complicit in secreting some Nazi scientists and perhaps some military officers out of Germany and to the U.S. for work here. I met one such man in Rottenburg Ob der Tauber. He was taken out of a holding facility and shipped to the US where he worked for 10 years in California. After that, he was moved to South America (I forget some of the place names) where he lived until 1985, when he was allowed to return to Germany (all forgotten or all forgiven), to live out the rest of his years. His wife was very distraught at his telling me this, but he simply shrugged his shoulders and said not to worry since he'd officially died in the war.

The truth is, the truth might seem fantasy, but consider the times. These were a people who could kill 6 million Jews and probably twice that many Russians and not blink an eye. If you have any doubt they were efficient enough to carry out a secret army, you haven't lived among them.
It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain

Replies

  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,624 Senior Member
    Odessa was real, why not a secret army? As for killing Russians without blinking an eye, the Eastern Front was a boon to Western civilization. The sight of millions upon millions of Nazis and Commies killing each other warms the heart. I can't say I'd miss either one. If only they had succeeded in finishing each other off completely - we would never have had the Cold War, and at least some of the mess the world is in today.
  • RazorbackerRazorbacker Senior Member Posts: 4,646 Senior Member
    Fascinating. But not even a little bit surprising.
    Teach your children to love guns, they'll never be able to afford drugs
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,982 Senior Member
    They also had a group called the Werewolves who actually attacked Americans in post WWII Germany trying to keep the NAZI cause alive.

    I talked to a few folks who stumbled upon or went to see places with their German friends that had interesting things stored inside, like Luftwaffe planes/parts and one swearing he saw an open truck in an underground tunnel/cavern with skeletons of soldiers still sitting in it with their uniforms rotting away that had apparently been asphyxiated somehow or something.

    Me, I never had such luck and the places/bunkers I went to, even one near the Eagles Nest had long been picked through/looted and flooded/blown/blocked off at the entrances. As late as the 90s they (a construction crew) found a weapons cache in an old ruin basement full of helmets/bayonets/rifles/P08-Lugers/ammo and whatnot, but the German who told me said the stupid supervisor called the police and all he could get was a helmet or something.

    The NAZI lore/legend/reality lives on and who really knows what all was hidden. That new movie Monuments Men might be interesting. I know after going through down in the Salz (Salt) Mines near Salzburg Austria near the German border, there was plenty of room to have hidden stuff and they did. Also, in the "Fairytale Castle" Neuschwanstein they hid stuff. I've been there a few times, it's huge with plenty of hidden/blocked off rooms/basements/cellers............your imagination can run wild just thinking what all went on there.

    http://www.castles.org/castles/Europe/Central_Europe/Germany/germany7.htm

    I had a chance to buy a dress (?) Iron Cross with a white porcelain something like a badge hanging from it with a red Swastika fer 80 Marks (about 40 bucks at the time) in a little shop on a side road in Rothenburg once, but didn't. It would have been cool I guess and maybe I could have sold it later here for much more $$$, but I despise everything NAZI related and didn't buy it.

    I spent 12 years of my 20 in Germany from the 70s until the mid 90s. Lots of intrigue, that's fer sure.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,803 Senior Member
    horselips wrote: »
    Odessa was real, why not a secret army? As for killing Russians without blinking an eye, the Eastern Front was a boon to Western civilization. The sight of millions upon millions of Nazis and Commies killing each other warms the heart. I can't say I'd miss either one. If only they had succeeded in finishing each other off completely - we would never have had the Cold War, and at least some of the mess the world is in today.

    To me all this is very believable. You know it had to happen. I don't doubt anything you say here Dan. The only thing that really pisses on my grits is that the US Military actually helped some of these scumbags. Some of our upper echelon officers fell into their BS. It's thought, not rumored, that a U.S. Officer at Nuremburg helped Faty, Goering, cheat the gallows. No telling how many others were helped. Some were probably helped to get to South America, as you said here Dan. Remember, it wasn't the U.S. who was pursuing Nazi war criminals, it was the prominent Jews who had survived and later on the Israelis. Yes, many Americans wanted to help catch these scum of the earth, but not all.

    I only wish we could have captured Hitler alive and buried him up to his neck in the sand and poured syrup on his head and let the fire ants have there way with him, after of course castrating him. I dream about ways to torture scum like him. But at least we are fairly certain that he did do himself in right before the war ended. At least he probably didn't get to escape to SA and live out his worthless life in comfort.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,982 Senior Member
    Snake, the US wanted their technology and Rocket Scientist and engineers like the V-1/2 man Wernher von Braun, heck a huge complex on Redstone Arsenal and a civic center in Huntsville Alabama is named after him.

    Never-mind what his rockets did to Britain and the thousands of slave laborers who died building his rockets and launch pads (and dying from Allied bomb raids), all was forgiven because he helped us with developing our rocket/missile programs and eventually get to the moon! He probably should have been put on trial as a war criminal and did some time or just hung. We actually only hung a few and most given lengthy sentences got them commuted with the exception of a handful.

    Now the Russians executed thousands and wanted us to execute most NAZIS from party officials, NCOs and all the officers! Of course, they kept a few prizes back to help them too.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Thanks for the fascinating background info, Dan.

    Another aspect of post-war Germany was that many elite troops (SS mostly) went underground and set up a guerrilla war against the Allied occupation, living in the deep forests and causing havoc. They termed themselves the "Werewolf" brigades.

    It took years to root them out. And, as you tell, many were likely still covert and hanging around.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,054 Senior Member
    I believe the Nazis had holdouts, and also that the US and other allies hired former Nazis who not only were rocket scientists, but were experts in dealing with communists. Not a very proud era. I'm sure the Russians did the same.

    On the History Channel several years ago they had a program on the British who did their own retribution on those Germans who executed British POWs. A good program.

    I hate Nazis. Both back then and now.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    I hate Nazis. Both back then and now.

    Same here. It's well known that when the Americans and Brits overran death camps, they either gave guns to the survivors or did the job themselves, essentially gunning down all the guards. And good riddance.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,624 Senior Member
    wolverines!
  • woodsrunnerwoodsrunner Senior Member Posts: 2,725 Senior Member
    Had a very good friend, a classmate in forestry school, lived next to each other in campus housing, frequently drank beer in the afternoons and hung around together. Maintained friendly contact over the years. Name was Klaus.

    Klaus' father was a colonel in the 3rd SS, Totenkopt. The most vicious of the vicious. He was administratively in command of the concentration camps when the Final Solution went into operation. When the War ended, the roman catholic church smuggled Klaus' family out of Germany. They were captured by Allied counterintelligence en route Argentina, and were returned to Germany where Klaus' father, Fritz, was tried at Nuremburg and sentenced to a long prison term. The mother and 3 children, Klaus and his sister and brother, were brought to the States and re-established in Savannah, Georgia. All of these children, and the grandchildren, too, have made outstanding Americans....doctors, educators, etc. Germany's loss, and our gain in my thinking.

    There is no "Black and White" in the world order. We're all various shades of gray. My thoughts anyway, after living almost a full lifetime.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,803 Senior Member
    a
    Big Chief wrote: »
    Snake, the US wanted their technology and Rocket Scientist and engineers like the V-1/2 man Wernher von Braun, heck a huge complex on Redstone Arsenal and a civic center in Huntsville Alabama is named after him.

    Never-mind what his rockets did to Britain and the thousands of slave laborers who died building his rockets and launch pads (and dying from Allied bomb raids), all was forgiven because he helped us with developing our rocket/missile programs and eventually get to the moon! He probably should have been put on trial as a war criminal and did some time or just hung. We actually only hung a few and most given lengthy sentences got them commuted with the exception of a handful.

    Now the Russians executed thousands and wanted us to execute most NAZIS from party officials, NCOs and all the officers! Of course, they kept a few prizes back to help them too.

    Chief, I really got no big problem with guys like Von Braun. He was a scientist following orders. He was a brilliant scientist and did contribute to our space program more than just about anyone. Besides, like you said the Soviets got other German Scientists. I think we did right using people like Von Braun. By Nazis I'm talking about Hitler's hinchmen, not his scientists. All the hinchmen did was murder people. They should have all been executed.. I put Von Braun in the same class as Einstein who was instrumental in the Atomic Bombs development.The Key Nazi officials like Goering, Hess, and Goebles were the ones that helped Hitler murder millions of people. Von Braun and the scientists only help kill a few thousand with the V-1s and V-2s. They could have done much worse in any other capacity than a scientist.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,260 Senior Member
    Most scientists focus on tasks, not end results of how a politician (mis)uses his work. I think Von Braun was like that. He inspired the (now deceased) founder of my company to become an engineer (and billionaire) when he was a teen. His name is now on the concert hall at the Von Braun Civic Center.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,803 Senior Member
    BAMAAK wrote: »
    Most scientists focus on tasks, not end results of how a politician (mis)uses his work. I think Von Braun was like that. He inspired the (now deceased) founder of my company to become an engineer (and billionaire) when he was a teen. His name is now on the concert hall at the Von Braun Civic Center.

    I agree BAMAAK. The German Scientists may or may not have been Nazis. I know they were guilty by association, but I don't think they were necessarily guilty at heart.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,552 Senior Member
    I have always had mixed feelings about our use of Nazi scientists, engineers, spies, etc. But, considering that Stalin was known to be every bit as evil as Hitler, I know that it was considered to be an absolute necessity, at the time. I even suspect that the data accumulated from human experiments by doctors like Mengele has been used, although the government and the medical profession denies it vehemently.

    Interesting post, Dan. :up:
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,982 Senior Member
    Draw your own conclusions. None knew about the Holocaust and all were forced to join the NAZI Party, at least, that was their story and they stuck to it.

    He may not of have been beating the drum for them, but he surely benefited from his association with them and even was arrested for being a Communist sympathizer and later released to continue work on Hitler's 'Vengeance Weapons', anything for science.

    Did his contributions after working for us outweigh his war crimes supporting the madman? Don't forget his was doing everything he could to help Germany win the war and would have continued if they hadn't lost the war.

    A lot of them like Rommel who were just professionals (according to them) didn't turn against Hitler until they started losing the war because of his insane orders.

    Would we have been foolish not to take advantage of his/others skills and capitalize and build on what he already developed? The Russians sure did with anyone or thing of value they captured (Maybe the British/French too?). I dunno, I just can't hold him in high esteem other than for the knowledge he gave us. Around here his name is synonymous with our space program. He is long dead, anyway.

    http://www.ask.com/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun?o=2801&qsrc=999&ad=doubleDown&an=apn&ap=ask.com
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 6,945 Senior Member
    It's never easy to give up a cause you've bled for, even when it appears lost. Note the prevalence of Confederate flags 150 years on - not even in living memory.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • Dr. dbDr. db Senior Member Posts: 1,541 Senior Member
    Grey Wolves was the name of at least one organization that attempted to carry on the war by terrorism in Germany.
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