45-70 Reloading Dilema - Hornady Seating/Crimping Die or Modified Lee Crimper?

U T

Here's my dilemma: I've been reloading Hornady 325 FTX bullets, which required shortening cases to 2.040" long (standard is 2.105") The factory Hornady Leverevolition brass is also shortened, so if you reload those you need to stay with Hornady 325 gr ftx bullets. No big deal, I thought! I recently found out that my standard RCBS steel dies will not crimp the bullets with the shortened brass. This is the only straight walled cartridge that I've loaded for, and have never crimped, and didn't think they were being crimped, although they didn't move in the magazine under recoil, but I almost always single load each round.
I've heard here how great the Lee Crimping Die is, so I ordered one, haven't received it yet, but got to thinking that I'd better check to see if it will crimp the shortened cases, and found out today from Lee that it won't crimp them without sending them back and pay $15.00 plus shipping both ways to have them shortened. If shortened, they won't work with standard length brass, which I've never tried, since I've only shot the 325 gr. FTX bullets.

Option #1 is to pick up the Lee Crimping Die when it comes in at Cabela's, pay shipping to and from Lee and have it modified for $15.00, and only have it work on shortened brass.

Option #2 is to buy a Hornady seating die, which will crimp the shortened and standard length cases, and not pick up/cancel the Lee Crimping Die.

Note: Hornady has a rebate for Free 100 bullets if I buy the "Set". Drawback to that is they aren't offering anything I want, and Nothing in 45-70! Kind of a crappy deal that you don't get bullets that work for the cartridge that the dies are for!! Plus it costs $6.95 to get bullets shipped that won't work in the dies.

Bottom line: What is so great about the Lee Crimping Die? Won't the Hornady seating die do the same thing?

I'm leaning towards getting the Hornady seating die. I can't find 45-70 brass, and own 100, and 50 of them are already shortened.

Thanks,
Tom

Jayhawker

cpj wrote: »

Why would you have to shorten the case?

This?

Jermanator

FYI-- I did manage to find 45/70 brass a couple of weeks ago-- at Cabela's online.

U T

I'll give more detailed reason, but for now without looking it up, the cannilure and seating depth of the bullet is such that once bullet is seated to proper depth, if you didn't shorten the case the crimp wouldn't be in right place. The bullet would be seated too deep and miss the cannilure/groove.

Gene L

Why not just adjust your seating die to the depth of the cannalure?

Teach

There's a simple, easy solution to the problem. Use a Lee taper crimp die for a .45 ACP, adjusted to the right length to put a tight, uniform squeeze on the case mouth where the bullet will normally seat, and ignore the cannelure. The die doesn't care what's being crammed into it, sort of like a few women I've known!
Jerry

Razorbacker

U T wrote: »

I'll give more detailed reason, but for now without looking it up, the cannilure and seating depth of the bullet is such that once bullet is seated to proper depth, if you didn't shorten the case the crimp wouldn't be in right place. The bullet would be seated too deep and miss the cannilure/groove.

I think I understand what you're saying, but I will offer my opinion based on a shortage of everything from powder to 8mm Mag brass. On powder I've just resolved to be patient. On the brass shortage during the latest panic, one day I googled 8mm brass for sale and found a guy on an obscure gun forum who had plenty. I bought all he had and now consider myself as having a lifetime supply.
So I googled 45 70 brass for sale: https://www.google.com/search?q=45+70+brass+for+sale&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb

I didn't click any links but there's a bunch. At the top is Cabela's where Jerm got his.
As far as trimming brass for a particular bullet, it would have to be some really oddball cartridge, with components made of unobtainium for me to do that. And the 45 70 is far from that.
This is all just my humble opinion. And here's another opinion, I neither own nor load for a 45 70 but if I did I would use hardcast bullets.

gaiman

I've just never seen that the 45-70 does anything that either a 12 ga auto (using slugs of course, or buckshot) or 308 auto don't do better, while being a lot more versatile. How you gonna reach 400 yds with a 45-70? :-) You'd have to aim at the moon, and have ZERO wind. How will you hit birds in flight with it? The lever action, in powerful calibers, can never hope to be as fast for repeat shots as an auto, and you pay twice as much for the 45-70 practice ammo as you do for 308 Milsurp. So there's no reason to bother with owning a 45-70, basically. You can be "nostalgic" about a pellet rifle, without tying up nearly as much money, and you can have a ball with it in your backyard, too. For 1/4c per shot.

art

gaiman wrote: »

I've just never seen that the 45-70 does anything that either a 12 ga auto (using slugs of course, or buckshot) or 308 auto don't do better, while being a lot more versatile. How you gonna reach 400 yds with a 45-70? :-) You'd have to aim at the moon, and have ZERO wind. How will you hit birds in flight with it? The lever action, in powerful calibers, can never hope to be as fast for repeat shots as an auto, and you pay twice as much for the 45-70 practice ammo as you do for 308 Milsurp. So there's no reason to bother with owning a 45-70, basically. You can be "nostalgic" about a pellet rifle, without tying up nearly as much money, and you can have a ball with it in your backyard, too. For 1/4c per shot.

I have to side with cpj....I read your post several times....can't make any sense of it......you should go back to your school and and get your money back.......

wddodge

U T wrote: »

Bottom line: What is so great about the Lee Crimping Die? Won't the Hornady seating die do the same thing?

Thanks,
Tom

I use the Lee Crimping Die for my 45-70s. It is a taper crimp while the Hornady is a roll crimp. In my trapdoor, the tapered crimp round drop into the chamber noticeably easier than the roll crimp.

Denny

Jayhawker

gaiman wrote: »

I've just never seen that the 45-70 does anything that either a 12 ga auto (using slugs of course, or buckshot) or 308 auto don't do better, while being a lot more versatile. How you gonna reach 400 yds with a 45-70? :-) You'd have to aim at the moon, and have ZERO wind. How will you hit birds in flight with it? The lever action, in powerful calibers, can never hope to be as fast for repeat shots as an auto, and you pay twice as much for the 45-70 practice ammo as you do for 308 Milsurp. So there's no reason to bother with owning a 45-70, basically. You can be "nostalgic" about a pellet rifle, without tying up nearly as much money, and you can have a ball with it in your backyard, too. For 1/4c per shot.

Haven't shot the .45-70 much have you?...I have a pair of Sharps chambered for that cartridge that show you know NOTHING about the cartridge or it's capabilities....During the Sandy Hook Test of 1879 they were shooting the .45-70 at 2 miles...

Fisheadgib

UT, there are so many great bullets out there for the 45-70 that I don't see what would be so great about any one bullet to warrant modifying my brass just to shoot it. What's so great about that particular bullet? My 45-70's shoot everything well and I've harvested deer with several different bullets.
Gayman, I suggest you have whatever it is that you drive checked thoroughly for exhaust leaks into the passenger compartment.

Teach

Don't feed the :troll:
Jerry

Razorbacker

Jayhawker wrote: »

Haven't shot the .45-70 much have you?...I have a pair of Sharps chambered for that cartridge that show you know NOTHING about the cartridge or it's capabilities....During the Sandy Hook Test of 1879 they were shooting the .45-70 at 2 miles...

I'd never heard of that Sandy Hook test so I looked it up: http://www.researchpress.co.uk/longrange/sandyhook.htm

A lengthy but fascinating read. I didn't read the whole thing but I did read a lot of it to see what bullet they used. I thought it might be some more pointed, perhaps paper patched arrangement, but no. 500 grain "blunt nose" and penetration was excellent. It must be said though that elevation of the barrel was extreme.

USUFB

Jayhawker wrote: »

Haven't shot the .45-70 much have you?...I have a pair of Sharps chambered for that cartridge that show you know NOTHING about the cartridge or it's capabilities....During the Sandy Hook Test of 1879 they were shooting the .45-70 at 2 miles...

What did Billy Dixon use at Adobe Walls? I don't know if it was a 45-70, but it sure wasn't a belted magnum with a laser-esque trajectory.

Gaiman: why the heck would you try to shoot birds in flight with any rifle? I certainly wouldn't use one of my 30-06s. Should I toss them out and use my Mossberg for all my shooting tasks?

Additionally, you mention the availability of cheap .308 practice ammo. Well, not so much these days. If you reload the 45-70 with light, cast bullet loads, I bet you could shoot a 45-70 for much less than any mil-surp caliber.

Jayhawker

USUFB wrote: »

What did Billy Dixon use at Adobe Walls? I don't know if it was a 45-70, but it sure wasn't a belted magnum with a laser-esque trajectory.

Dixon was using a .50-90...a borrowed gun (having lost his Sharps when his wagon overturned in a river a couple of days previous to the fight) to make his 1537 yard shot. (Dixon, who was a superb shot, recalled in his memoirs that there was as much luck involved in the shot as there was skill)

U T

Here's what Hornady says regarding the 325 FTX: Loading FTX bullets requires some specialized techniques in certain cases. To achieve a high ballistic coefficient we had to lengthen the ogive, or nose, of the bullet. Sometimes this requires that the cartridge cases to be trimmed shorter than the suggested .010" under SAAMI MAX length that we recommend for conventional bullets. Follow prescribed trim lengths exactly as prescribed in the FTX data for optimum results.
Max case length 2.050"
case trim length 2.040"
bullet diam. .458"
1895 marlin
Barrel 22" 1 in 20" twist
Bullet 325 gr FTX
Maxium C. O. L. 2.6"
Sectional Density .221
Ballistic Coefficient .230

There's got to be lots of once fired brass out there with these dimensions fired from factory Hornady Leverevolution.

I tried scanning this info. from Hornady but was having trouble, so I just copied it. Maybe tomorrow I'll photo it and be able to send.

U T

Ok, I'm going to try to respond to all: Here goes:

Gene, CPJ - I agree that I could just seat it the standard length cannilure as long as it feeds and doesn't hit the lands, but I usually try going by the book, and hornady made no mention of running into problems crimping. I already have 1/2 of my brass trimmed short now, so I'm ok either way with the hornady dies. They sucked me in on that one!

Teach - I think you have workable idea, but I don't own any 45 acp dies. I hope you're feeling ok under the circumstances and hope for a quick full recovery.

gaiman - I can hit praire dogs at way over 400 yards with my 45-70 with no hold over what so ever! I hunt grouse with it in the thickest of cover, and regulary hit doubles and triples with ease! I have also been timed, and can run more rounds through my lever than anyone running full auto, and make the Rifleman look slow and can spin cock it like there's no tomorrow!

wdodge - thanks for the info on roll crimping vs taper crimping. I knew there had to be some difference between lee crimp and hornady

Fishheadgib - I just wanted to try the 325 FTX plastic tip in magazine with it's better B.C. I didn't realize what a pain it was going to be trimming that much and the issues with specialized crimping required to do the job!

Jerm - I will keep looking for brass, expesially Cabelas, where I have points, and get them basically for free.

Bottom line though, only wdodge has much opinion on taper crimp being better than roll crimp?

Nice talking to all, even Gaiman who is on a different planet!

Teach

Taper VS roll crimp- - - - - -I've used both, and I prefer the taper crimp since it's not case length specific. It smooths out the case mouth expansion needed for loading cast bullets nicely and assures good feeding without having to have every case the exact same length like with a roll crimp. If I've got a choice, I'll pick taper crimping every time.

Single .45 ACP taper crimp dies are available on Ebay all the time, and the Lee dies are very inexpensive.

Right now I'm a physical rehab facility about 20 miles from home, with about a week's waiting time for healing before another round of surgery. Thanks for your concern!
Jerry

MississippiBoy

gaiman wrote: »

I've just never seen that the 45-70 does anything that either a 12 ga auto (using slugs of course, or buckshot) or 308 auto don't do better, while being a lot more versatile. How you gonna reach 400 yds with a 45-70? :-) You'd have to aim at the moon, and have ZERO wind. How will you hit birds in flight with it? The lever action, in powerful calibers, can never hope to be as fast for repeat shots as an auto, and you pay twice as much for the 45-70 practice ammo as you do for 308 Milsurp. So there's no reason to bother with owning a 45-70, basically. You can be "nostalgic" about a pellet rifle, without tying up nearly as much money, and you can have a ball with it in your backyard, too. For 1/4c per shot.

If someone has posted this before, I'm sorry, but it's too appropriate for me to pass up....

tennmike

MississippiBoy wrote: »

If someone has posted this before, I'm sorry, but it's too appropriate for me to pass up....

:spittingcoffee: A most appropriate response! :up:

U T

Thanks for the responses. I ended up ordering a Redding profile crimp die which supposedly is combination of taper and roll crimping. It's specifically made for the Hornady FTX bullet. At least now I have the means to crimp the shortened brass that I have and plan on getting some shortened leverevolution once fired brass from those I know that shoot them but don't reload.
http://www.outdoorhub.com/news/redding-introduces-new-profile-crimp-die-for-45-70-ftx-cases/

gaiman

anyone who's fired 10 rds with 45-70 knows that it'[s a joke. Just look at the charts on winddrift. It might as well be a balloon. Sure, you can plink with it, but first rd hits? Not a chance, and since neither animals nor men stand around being shot at, the 45-70 is a joke beyond 200 yds, just like I said before. You can't make a live target hold still, and you're just a blowhard to claim this sort of stuff. any time it's over about 75+F degrees, the mirage makes shots beyond about 300 yds a bs proposition, regardless of caliber, shooter, rifle or sight.

jbohio

gaiman wrote: »

anyone who's fired 10 rds with 45-70 knows that it'[s a joke. Just look at the charts on winddrift. It might as well be a balloon. Sure, you can plink with it, but first rd hits? Not a chance, and since neither animals nor men stand around being shot at, the 45-70 is a joke beyond 200 yds, just like I said before. You can't make a live target hold still, and you're just a blowhard to claim this sort of stuff. any time it's over about 75+F degrees, the mirage makes shots beyond about 300 yds a bs proposition, regardless of caliber, shooter, rifle or sight.

You're an idiot. Why don't you come over, run back and forth on the 300 yard line of my range, on an 80 degree day.

U T

gaiman wrote: »

anyone who's fired 10 rds with 45-70 knows that it'[s a joke. Just look at the charts on winddrift. It might as well be a balloon. Sure, you can plink with it, but first rd hits? Not a chance, and since neither animals nor men stand around being shot at, the 45-70 is a joke beyond 200 yds, just like I said before. You can't make a live target hold still, and you're just a blowhard to claim this sort of stuff. any time it's over about 75+F degrees, the mirage makes shots beyond about 300 yds a bs proposition, regardless of caliber, shooter, rifle or sight.

This is supposed to be about crimping bullets, but you are crimping my style! You been smoking with Michael Phelps again?

Gene L

U T wrote: »

Thanks for the responses. I ended up ordering a Redding profile crimp die which supposedly is combination of taper and roll crimping. It's specifically made for the Hornady FTX bullet. At least now I have the means to crimp the shortened brass that I have and plan on getting some shortened leverevolution once fired brass from those I know that shoot them but don't reload.
http://www.outdoorhub.com/news/redding-introduces-new-profile-crimp-die-for-45-70-ftx-cases/

I'm still not sure why you need to shorten 45-70 brass instead of adjusting your sizing die. Maybe I'm missing something here and I'm totally willing to learn. Someone...please?

knitepoet

gaiman wrote: »

the mirage makes shots beyond about 300 yds a bs proposition, regardless of caliber, shooter, rifle or sight.

REALLY?


Here are the first and second place targets from this year's "Marshall Dan Challenge" from Tennessee a couple of weeks ago. Both of these were shot prone at 300 yards with rifles chambered in 223/5.56


and I then hit a half liter water bottle of "tannerite" that was on the ground ~ 5 yards in front of the 300 yard target stand with my first shot at it. Oh, and quite a few other forum members were there & witnessed it

I guess your ignorance truly knows no bounds :roll:

Edited to add: I didn't have a thermometer with me, but the forecast for the area was "low 90's" which is quite a bit more than your "75 degrees". All I know is it was HOT and that I only managed to take second :tissue:

knitepoet

Gene L wrote: »

I'm still not sure why you need to shorten 45-70 brass instead of adjusting your sizing die. Maybe I'm missing something here and I'm totally willing to learn. Someone...please?

The .458" FTX bullets are MUCH longer, in front of the cannelure, than any other bullet normally used in the 45-70.
To get the SAMMI overall length, the cannelure will be ~0.10" inside the case mouth of a "standard" length case.
Hornady addressed the problem by making their cases 0.10" shooter than SAAMI standards, to load them in other cases, you either have to seat the to the point the taper of the ogive is in the case mouth, wich leaves the gap that can cause feeding issues in some guns, use Hornady's shorter cases, or trim your cases. Some (most) seating/crimping dies are designed for the SAAMI length cases, and are too long to crimp the shorter cases without modifying the die.

DanChamberlain

One could shorten the die and use whatever case length they wished by just adjusting the die. Grinding wheels are the bomb.

U T

cpj wrote: »

My assumption would be the COAL would be too long without doing so. The FTX bullets are long and skinny (for a .45) and must take up lots of room. However, I still can't see them being THAT long.

UT,what would the COAL be with standard length brass with the bullet seated at the cannelure?

The 45-70 max case length is 2.105" and Hornady for the 325 FTX is 2.050, so the hornady is .055" shorter.
Hornady shows max C.O.L. of 2.6"
If case had not been shortened, and bullet seated to same depth C.O.L. would be 2.655"
I haven't tried 2.655 C.O.L., but next time loading, I might just seat one to that length and see if there are any fit or feed problems before I seat it all the way down.

Hornady should put a warning on their bullets and ammo warning that crimping can only be achieved with their standard diies, unless special crimping dies are used

Hornady claims that when they designed the 325 FTX bullets that they worked in their dies, and didn't realize that other MFG die dimensions were different and wouldn't work with those bullets with shortened cases!

Gene L

I'd ignore the advised COAL and go to the basics of reloading. The 45-70 headspaces on the rim, so COAL is more or less a suggestion. If the round will chamber and is off the lands, you're good to go. I can't think of a single reason to shorten cases with this load. I admit my experience with the 45-70 is limited to probably 100 rounds for two different rifles, but I still can't quite understand the issue here. I've never heard of shortening the case on good brass to accomodate the crimping groove instead of simply adjusting your die.