200 yds or so, 223 softpoint is 2400 fps (or so), works great.

gaimangaiman BannedPosts: 60 Member
NAILS coyotes to the ground, blowing 2" wide holes in their chests. :-) yet 55 grs at 2400 fps is "only" 122 momentum (ie, same as a 122 gr bullet at a lousy 1000 fps. We (should have) known that high velocity is the way to go for handgun stopping power for over 30 years now. The original Glaser 9mm load (5" barrel) was 96 grs at 1800+ fps for the LEAA tests, 32 years ago. I AINT TALKING ABOUT THE STOPPING POWER TEST, OK? Just the chronoed velocities recorded, can you understand that much? The velocities were real and are my only concern in this post. WE DON'T HAVE TO SETTLE FOR 1400 FPS, and we don't have to settle for bullets made out of glue and birdshot, either. We can safely get solid copper or aluminum, 45-66 gr bullets (depending upon caliber) to 2400 fps in 5" barrels.

We have (or should have) known for 30+ years that ENOUGH larger bore diameter (ie, 12 ga slugs) works really well, even at a mere 1300 fps, and without a hp cavity, even. As a kid, I centered a metal quart oil can (full of water) with a 12 ga slug from about 10 ft distance. (double barrel, I couldn't afford slugs) :-) Not only did the can get blown to frags (soaking me) it ALSO dented down the wire bicycle basket (about 2" down) upon which I had set the can. So you do NOT need the same 2400 fps with a .45 that you need with a 223 bullet, to get the same effects. 2200 fps work just fine.

Nor am I talking about using pistols at 200 yds, OKAY? I am talking about the ranges at which pistols get used by civilians in justifiable defense (ie, 5 yds, and less, over 90% of the time and they don't need to HIT anyone 90% of the time. So the "range" is gonna be 5 yds and less 99% of the time. :-) They don't need to FIRE over 80% of the time, if they have the sense to make the punk aware of their (the defenders') gun at a time and distance enough for the punk to stop and flee, and if they are smart enough to LEAVE THE PUNK AN EXIT.

I knew Louie Seman fairly well. He was the state cop who got Ill state police to switch from the 357 to 9mm, back in 1970 (or so, I forget). Louie said that even for cops, the bullet should fall straight to the ground after 100 yds of flat travel. :-) Since nobody can demo that they can hit anything (while being shot at) at even 50 yds, Louie was being conservative by a factor of 2.

So I WANT my bullets to really lose velocity and power swiftly. I couldn't care less if they bounce off of men at 50 yds, IF THEY ARE much more effective (than normal handgun ammo) at 5 yds. And these 2200 fps, 800 ft lb .45 loads ARE. It's quite provable on animals. These loads make 230 gr jhp's look sick by comparison.
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Replies

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,616 Senior Member
    Another rant?
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,616 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    FIFY

    Kinda sorta exactly the same as the others........but different in a similar way.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • gaimangaiman Banned Posts: 60 Member
    and everything I said is true, and you CA'NT refute it, so you HAVE TO fall back on the refuge of scoundrels, which is buffoonery and spitballing from the sidelines. When you are afraid to and unable to actually debate the issue, catcalling is all you have left. :-)
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,616 Senior Member
    gaiman wrote: »
    and everything I said is true, and you CA'NT refute it, so you HAVE TO fall back on the refuge of scoundrels, which is buffoonery and spitballing from the sidelines. When you are afraid to and unable to actually debate the issue, catcalling is all you have left. :-)

    You are incapable of a coherent basis for your position of argument. How do we debate incoherent ramblings?
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,616 Senior Member
    You are incapable of comprising a sudo grammatically correct sentence. Sort of par for your course.

    But, I admit to reading your posts as one would watch a train wreck.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,055 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Another rant?

    He's frantically shoveling as much crap as he can in the limited time he has....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,220 Senior Member
    No, he is trying to say that fpe is fpe whether shot from a .45acp or a .223. The problem is that a .223 has .35" of frontal area where a .452 has .71" (twice the frontal area). When the larger bullet expands, the surface area goes way up in proportion to the expanding .223. That will affect penetration. The larger diameter bullet will penetrate less with equal mass and velocity.
  • USUFBUSUFB Senior Member Posts: 830 Senior Member
    Acutually Jerm, a .452 has 4 times the frontal area. Area of a circle is pi(radius squared). Doubling the diameter (doubling the radius) quadruples the area.

    .223 has frontal area of .039 sq inches
    .452 has frontal area of .160 sq inches

    Doesn't make him less wrong though.
    Sometimes, I lie awake in bed at night wondering "Why the heck can't I fall asleep?"
    NRA Life Member
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Jerm, do you know and understand this guy?
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,106 Senior Member
    Where is he getting those 2200 fps .45 rounds? NOT a .45ACP or .45 Colt loading. Even a .454 Casull pushing a light 240 grain bullet doesn't reach that velocity.

    Gaiman, some friendly advice, as it were. Fairy tales begin with, "Once upon a time", while sea stories begin with, "This ain't no ****". And mixing crack and meth and smoking it isn't healthy. Kthnxbye.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,616 Senior Member
    The man has racked up 60 posts in a short amount of time. Not one of them is coherent.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 7,041 Senior Member
    Boy, I'm really fighting the urge to counter rant on this near-and-dear to my heart topic. He seems to be latched onto the light-fast bullet concept that the FBI decided was stupid in 1987 (as a DIRECT result of the '86 Miami shooting that Gaiman has already somehow drawn the OPPOSITE conclusion from), and that Elmer Keith decided was stupid in about 1925 or so.

    I bet he wets his pants at the thought of an exit wound.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,101 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »

    I bet he wets his pants at the thought of an exit wound.
    We don't want to know what YOU do in your pants at the thought of an exit wound....
    Overkill is underrated.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,532 Senior Member
    gaiman wrote: »
    and everything I said is true, and you CA'NT refute it, so you HAVE TO fall back on the refuge of scoundrels, which is buffoonery and spitballing from the sidelines. :-)

    Sure I can.

    First, the historical part. Cops went to 9mm in the 80's for the sole reason of politics.

    Second, any straight up comparison of any bullet vs bullet using only ft/lbs E and weight of bullet, is crap. It leaves zero room for bullet construction.

    Third, In your mind no one ever used a handgun at 50 yards. Then why was the std for the 1911 the ability to hit a man sized target at 50 yards? Not to mention there is a recent account of a civilian saving a cop at farther than your imagined max effective range. The very fact that you would limit yourself to 5 yard encounters states that you are not serious.

    Forth, a 9mm fired at shoulder height will not hit the ground in 100 yards. In real life you are looking at something less than 12 inches when fired from a zero angle. I know that a 230 gr 45 at 850 FPS will drop about 14 inches from POA at 125 yards, because I actually shoot one that far.
    When you are afraid to and unable to actually debate the issue, catcalling is all you have left.
    When you come up with anything that isnt imaginary, we will give it a shot.

    Just FYI.

    You can pre order your next instructional video now. Call Of Duty Advanced Warfare.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,055 Senior Member
    gaiman wrote: »
    and everything I said is true, and you CA'NT refute it, so you HAVE TO fall back on the refuge of scoundrels, which is buffoonery and spitballing from the sidelines. When you are afraid to and unable to actually debate the issue, catcalling is all you have left. :-)

    Look at it this way gaiman...when you finally get whacked, you'll be a martyr...at least in your own mind....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,246 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    You are incapable of a coherent basis for your position of argument. How do we debate incoherent ramblings?

    You can't. It is impossible to have a logical discussion with an illogical person. Train wrecks of this sort are fun to watch, no casualties.
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,626 Senior Member
    gaiman wrote: »
    So I WANT my bullets to really lose velocity and power swiftly. I couldn't care less if they bounce off of men at 50 yds, IF THEY ARE much more effective (than normal handgun ammo) at 5 yds. And these 2200 fps, 800 ft lb .45 loads ARE. It's quite provable on animals. These loads make 230 gr jhp's look sick by comparison.

    Obviously you don't understand, or are inexperienced in the whole range of potential problems for which self-defense ammunition is loaded. You make a good case for short range effectiveness over long range performance, but you fail to consider that self defense often involves resisting ancient aliens who have abducted you to a cigar shaped mother ship for probing and intrusive examinations. Those cigar shaped ships are long, and (Pay attention here, gaiman) when you're firing down a long hall at a couple of Greys wearing white coats and stethescopes, long range performance can be a factor. Of course, I am on every alien's "Do Not Abduct" list but some of them don't get the updated memos. And then what do you do if your bullet loses all its power in 50 yards if a wayward triceratops wanders into your backyard, corners your Dachshund-Chihuahua, and starts nibbling your Topsy Turvy tomato plants, HUH? DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
    Power matters, just like size.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,854 Senior Member
    horselips wrote: »
    Obviously you don't understand, or are inexperienced in the whole range of potential problems for which self-defense ammunition is loaded. You make a good case for short range effectiveness over long range performance, but you fail to consider that self defense often involves resisting ancient aliens who have abducted you to a cigar shaped mother ship for probing and intrusive examinations. Those cigar shaped ships are long, and (Pay attention here, gaiman) when you're firing down a long hall at a couple of Greys wearing white coats and stethescopes, long range performance can be a factor. Of course, I am on every alien's "Do Not Abduct" list but some of them don't get the updated memos. And then what do you do if your bullet loses all its power in 50 yards if a wayward triceratops wanders into your backyard, corners your Dachshund-Chihuahua, and starts nibbling your Topsy Turvy tomato plants, HUH? DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
    Power matters, just like size.

    You guys are better than me on this score. I couldn't make out what in hell he was trying to say here. Gives me a headache to read it.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • bhl2506bhl2506 Senior Member Posts: 1,847 Senior Member
    I don't know about you fellas but I haven't had this much entertainment on a forum like this in a long time. :rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao:
    Refusing to conform to the left wing mantra of political correctness by insisting on telling the truth does not make you a loud mouth.
  • HAWKENHAWKEN Senior Member Posts: 1,688 Senior Member
    :yesno::deadhorse:You are partially correct and mostly wrong. Back in 74' or 75' when the Illinois State Police went to the 9mm, they made the switch merely because of the added number of rounds available. I was a Deputy Sheriff in Indiana, at the time and in our PPC qualification, we had to shoot out to 60 yards. In order to qualify as a distinguished expert marksman, with a hand gun, you had to shoot a score of 295, or better, out of a possible 300, 5 times in arrow. I accomplished this, several times, using a variety of revolvers with barrel lengths of 2" to 6". Marksmanship is still taught, at least to those officers who routinely work in rural areas, so a 50 yard shot is not only possible, it is common. Aim small, miss small........Robin
    I don't often talk to people that voted for Obama, but when I do I order large fries!
    Life member of the American Legion, the VFW, the NRA and the Masonic Lodge, retired LEO
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 7,041 Senior Member
    We don't want to know what YOU do in your pants at the thought of an exit wound....

    :spittingcoffee::roll2:

    Forgive me for applying the defibrillator to this banned idiot's two-months-dead thread, but THAT is some funny stuff right there! How well they know me. . .

    He WAS an entertaining little tweaker. How long to the next one, I wonder. . .
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,101 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    :spittingcoffee::roll2:

    Forgive me for applying the defibrillator to this banned idiot's two-months-dead thread, but THAT is some funny stuff right there! How well they know me. . .

    He WAS an entertaining little tweaker. How long to the next one, I wonder. . .
    I was afraid that you had missed what I had said...
    Overkill is underrated.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,854 Senior Member
    He states a lot of info, whether it's factual or not remains to be seen, but I can't figure out from where or from what standpoint his argument is coming from or where he's going with it or what point he's trying to make.

    But if he's trying to say a .45 ACP with a .250 grain bullet (or whatever) will kill coyotes as well as a .223, he's crazy, because most coyotes aren't going to hang around within .45 ACP range with regularity and wait for you to take them out. Also, a .45 caliber bullet capable of doing its thing at 200-300 yards is going to kick the living poo poo out of you, and a .223 will do the same thing with finesse. Or then again maybe I got this backwards, but if he's trying to prove the opposite, it's a no brainer because everybody and their dog knows that already.

    Don't get me wrong, I like to read a good rant now and then like most of us here, as long as it's half way coherent and makes a clear point. But such doesn't appear to be the case here.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,235 Senior Member
    Sure I can.

    First, the historical part. Cops went to 9mm in the 80's for the sole reason of politics.

    I was a cop in the 80s when the switch occurred and politics had nothing to do with it. Higher capacity magazines and performance were the reasons. A 9mm generally out-performed the .38 Specials almost uniformly carried by cops back in the day. And held at least twice as many rounds. The recoil was about the same which made the 9 a good choice.

    Cost may have had something to do with it, I wasn't on the decision-making circle in those days, but revolvers gave a LOT of trouble, and maintenance costs on revolvers were higher, I do know.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • Mrs_ChiefMrs_Chief Member Posts: 292 Member
    Zee wrote: »
    You are incapable of comprising a sudo grammatically correct sentence. Sort of par for your course.

    But, I admit to reading your posts as one would watch a train wreck.

    Sam is falling down on the job, it PSEUDO not SUDO! :guns::guns::spittingcoffee: :rotflmao: :tooth: :tooth:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=PSEUDO&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb

    pseu·do
    ˈso͞odō/
    adjective
    adjective: pseudo

    not genuine; sham.
    "we are talking about real journalists and not the pseudo kind"
    synonyms: bogus, sham, phony, artificial, mock, ersatz, quasi-, fake, false, spurious, deceptive, misleading, assumed, contrived, affected, insincere; More
    informalpretend, put-on
    "her 'diamonds' are so pseudo"
    antonyms: genuine

    Origin
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,532 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    I was a cop in the 80s when the switch occurred and politics had nothing to do with it. Higher capacity magazines and performance were the reasons. A 9mm generally out-performed the .38 Specials almost uniformly carried by cops back in the day. And held at least twice as many rounds. The recoil was about the same which made the 9 a good choice.

    Cost may have had something to do with it, I wasn't on the decision-making circle in those days, but revolvers gave a LOT of trouble, and maintenance costs on revolvers were higher, I do know.
    AAAAAAnd why were high cap mags important suddenly? Browning High Powers had been around for 50 years prior and cops that actually hit with 38's did OK or they went to the trunk if they didnt have enough capacity, those that didnt have enough power carried 357's.
    If you recall, some 2 years prior to cops switching, there was a huge kerfuffle about the amazing 9mm, aka the wondernine. It would pierce 1/2 in steel and blow a body in half, at least thats what hollywierd portrayed and the politicos decided was fact. There was never a call to go to a more than 7 round magazine for the entire existence of large capacity magazines until the politicians became so separated from reality in the 80's that they believed their buddys in hollyweird. The high cap ban and the bullet bans and the AP bans were at the same time, and that is what got me involved heavily on the political side. Since the bad guys "had" these armor piercing elephant 9mm's, the call was for the cops to have them also. At the time the favorite handgun of bad guys was a chrome revolver, but facts didnt matter. There were Miami Vice shootouts in every street in the minds of politicians, and they had to do something about all of those Lethal Weapons.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,235 Senior Member
    The shift to autos and 9mms took a decade or so. It didn't happen overnight. As I said before, politics had nothing to do with it, as "cops" are essentially local. No one makes a decision for all or most cops.

    As for Browning HPs, yes, they had large capacity mags, but they were SA..as were 1911s, which weren't widely adopted either. I can't think of a single agency that went to HPs. Way to expensive for one thing. SA for another. And the single stack Model 39 SA/DA pistols were around since the 50s in 9mm, but weren't adopted either.

    I never heard of 9mms being able to punch through 1/2" of steel. I never heard of them being thought of in that way. The .357s with armor piercing ammo was said to be able to do so, to disable engines of autos. I don't know if this is true, but GSP carried six pointy armor piercing bullets for years until they switched to autos.

    I worked for a city and a county, and politics had nothing to do with pistol or ammo selection. In Atlanta in the early 1970s, the mayor forbade the use of HP 38 specials, which was political. It lasted for about a year or so.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,532 Senior Member
    You are right it didnt happen overnight. But it was dang straight political.

    The scare tactics happened first, then the big city mayors started saying the need a high cap wondernine. Their US reps back the plan and get funding because of cops being so outgunned while they tried to get bans on cop killer bullets (remember that pile of excrement?). Other locals follow the money and get pistols new also.

    Before the scare tactics, no one needed the wondernines.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,235 Senior Member
    That's the worst constructed argument I've ever read or heard. It's a conspiracy? "Wondernines?" I've never heard that term before today. There was a push for more mag capacity, there always was a desire to maximize the amount of available firepower.

    Edited to add: the big concern back during the change was (in urban settings) the fear of over-penetration. A big problem with 148 RN bullets. The 9mm moved a lighter bullet faster with less danger or a ricochet.

    Then S&W turned toward automatics and the revolver supply went down...it was a lot cheaper to make an automatic than a hand fit revolver, you just reached in a bucket and found parts that would work.

    I left the PD in 1986 when they were issuing L-frame Smiths. When I returned to LE work in 96, everyone was packing automatics. Cheaper, way more reliable, and with a wider selection of bullet weights and calibers. I came back to .40 S&W Glocks.

    The "cop killer" bullets are ancient history from about 20 years ago. They were some kind of coated bullets, Teflon I believe. Kevlar vests have come a long way since "killer bullets."

    Your case is riddled with wrong assumptions and kinda dated.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • Mrs_ChiefMrs_Chief Member Posts: 292 Member
    I said it before and will say it again. Most of us "Regular Citizens" could probably defend ourselves /property our entire lives with something like a S&W model 10 .38 Special revolver (especially with the great advances in ammo) or maybe a .357 would be better with its versatility.

    BC
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