Swat teams

BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior MemberPosts: 4,311 Senior Member
Very interesting article about The Militarization of Americas Police Forces. Gives lots of cause and effect of the hows and whys of how we got here. Jason probably ain't gonna like this.

Of interest:

"There was a time, back in the '70s, when there were probably 150 SWAT team raids a year, nationwide. Today, there are about 150 a day, 365 days a year. And the number of raids is increasing every year. For those who like big numbers, we've seen more than a 36,000 percent increase in 40 years."


"Another economic reason they go after drugs is that there are federal bounties on drug arrests that are part of the so-called War on Drugs. The politicians are so focused on drugs, police departments get a certain amount of funding for every drug arrest, and many get state funds, also."

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/silveira146.html
"He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

-- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
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Replies

  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,126 Senior Member
    I won't like what? An article which cites no sources and makes single-handed suppositions by a town crier who sensationalized his article with a sketch of a SWAT team barging in a 1960s-era-looking white family at dinner? It's a propagandist article. It bears no weight to me.

    1. I know police actions have expanded largely since the 70s. Duh. Population in the US has gone from 208mill to 314mill since the 1970-1979 decade. Urban sprawls are multiplying and social welfare programs are at unheard of levels.

    2. As I said in other comments, I'm not 100% on board with no-knocks, so baiting me with rhetoric about them is moot.

    Lastly, I'd like to see cited data for the search warrant execution numbers quoted in that article. If the numbers are correct, fine, I just wanna see them.

    And the "war on drugs" is not a war on the American people. That is some ignorant issue baiting rhetoric.

    For the record, no SWAT team I've ever worked with has been used to enforce misdemeanors.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,808 Senior Member
    Citations:

    Wall Street Journal
    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323848804578608040780519904

    Cato Institute
    http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/balko_whitepaper_2006.pdf


    This link documents every "botched" raid. Wrong houses, dead innocents, dead LEOs, etc.
    http://www.cato.org/raidmap
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • Fat BillyFat Billy Senior Member Posts: 1,813 Senior Member
    I agree Jason, SWAT Teams aren't serving a warrant for speeding tickets. Many areas have laws that put three time losers away for ever. This makes bad guys more focused on beating the third arrest. Their weapons are better. Violent crimes are down because bad guys are handled with enough force. The no knock warrants are a problem due to not enough verifying of the facts. We have the technology so know how many people are in a building and where they are in the structure. Big person, big reading. Small person small reading. A case in this area resulted in a flash bag going into an occupied play pen almost killing the baby. No knock warrant was obtained from a confidential informant buying drugs in the home a day or so before. Baby toys on the porch didn't provide any clue to the possibility of children being present. Was informant trying to beat down charges against themselves?

    SWAT officers are highly trained and properly armed to handle problems. Black BDUs don't make a police officer a SWAT qualified officer. The real SWAT Teams are needed and deserve respect for the jobs they do. Real SWAT Teams don't have issues but the ones calling themselves SWAT do. :up: Later,
    Fat Billy

    Recoil is how you know primer ignition is complete.
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 11,008 Senior Member
    The botched raid map is outdated, there have been several more in MN.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,126 Senior Member
    So, who do you blame since we on this forum like to preach admission of responsibility for gun ownership, for example...

    A flashbang near a playpen...

    The police's fault for executing a search warrant based on factual evidence....or....

    The parent's fault for conducting drug activities in a home with children?

    :popcorn:

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 23,982 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    So, who do you blame since we on this forum like to preach admission of responsibility for gun ownership, for example...

    A flashbang near a playpen...

    The police's fault for executing a search warrant based on factual evidence....or....

    The parent's fault for conducting drug activities in a home with children?

    :popcorn:

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk
    Would it be like an accident where someone gets killed and the driver gets charged for a homicide. [ no drugs, booze, or excessive speed involved. ]
    :popcorn:
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
  • MichakavMichakav Senior Member Posts: 2,440 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    So, who do you blame since we on this forum like to preach admission of responsibility for gun ownership, for example...

    A flashbang near a playpen...

    The police's fault for executing a search warrant based on factual evidence, innocent bystander's be DAMNED!....or....

    The parent's fault for conducting drug activities in a home with children?
    :popcorn:

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk

    Fixed it for you.
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,126 Senior Member
    Michakav wrote: »
    Fixed it for you.

    That adaptation detracts from the fundamentals, but ok.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,126 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    That adaptation detracts from the fundamentals, but ok.

    Sooner or later that drug house would attract a driveby shooting, innocent bystanders be damned.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk



    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • MichakavMichakav Senior Member Posts: 2,440 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    That adaptation detracts from the fundamentals, but ok.

    Sooner or later that drug house would attract a driveby shooting, innocent bystanders be damned.

    So you figure a bunch of JBT's should do it without regard before criminals do? Gottcha.
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,808 Senior Member
    CHIRO1989 wrote: »
    The botched raid map is outdated, there have been several more in MN.

    You are correct. There have been countless more nationwide.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,808 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    So, who do you blame since we on this forum like to preach admission of responsibility for gun ownership, for example...

    A flashbang near a playpen...

    The police's fault for executing a search warrant based on factual evidence....or....

    The parent's fault for conducting drug activities in a home with children?

    Way to blame the victims.

    If you took the time to reseach the story, you would find a few facts.

    Fact: The cops dropped the grenade inside the playpen.
    Fact: The parents were NOT engaged in drug activities.
    Fact: The cops used the word of a junkie CI to raid the home. Factual evidence my arse.
    Fact: No drugs were found and the person they were looking for was arrested at a different location without SWAT and without burning children.
    Fact: A minivan parked in front of the home contained four child car seats. The cops had to walk past the van to throw the grenade. But they claimed there was no evidence of children.

    A little reminder of how the war on drugs, is in fact, a war on the American people.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/t...flash-grenade/
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,311 Senior Member
    There are no federal bounties on drug arrests. There are state laws coordinaing with federal laws that allow the sharing of cash obtained in drug busts, but no bounty. Especially in the Obama era of tolerance.

    There is no doubt a militarization of SWAT teams. In the 1970s, there were no cartels and very few AR rifles out there in civilian hands. The populace has militarized and gangs which exist on drug money are widespread.

    Fact is, LEO agencies are losing more than the losses in Afghanistan. Two today in Las Vegas, in fact.

    I went to FBI SWAT school in 1977, in the first officers from Athens, GA, to do so. We didn't have a cartel problem and NEVER served a search warrant.

    I don't excuse the flawed tactics (apparently) in the GA flash bang incident. I'm not a proponent in no-knock warrants in general, but I have no idea on what the current drug scene is out there, only what I hear. As I said in another thread, I can't remember ever serving a no-knock warrant, have expressly forbidden them when I was a chief deputy, and especially not to prevent the destruction of drug evidence. If there were weapons on the scene, maybe so, but while we frequently found weapons, none were ever justified before-hand to no knock.

    Times have changed, though. I live in a safe county and I've been out of the LE scene for five years.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,126 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    Way to blame the victims.

    If you took the time to reseach the story, you would find a few facts.

    Fact: The cops dropped the grenade inside the playpen.
    Fact: The parents were NOT engaged in drug activities.
    Fact: The cops used the word of a junkie CI to raid the home. Factual evidence my arse.
    Fact: No drugs were found and the person they were looking for was arrested at a different location without SWAT and without burning children.
    Fact: A minivan parked in front of the home contained four child car seats. The cops had to walk past the van to throw the grenade. But they claimed there was no evidence of children.

    A little reminder of how the war on drugs, is in fact, a war on the American people.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/t...flash-grenade/

    Dropped it in the playpen on purpose? You're insinuating that.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,808 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    Dropped it in the playpen on purpose? You're insinuating that.

    I'm saying the cops threw a grenade into a home KNOWING there were kids inside. They didn't intend to drop it in a playpen, but the blatant disregard for the residents is criminal.

    The CI claimed he bought a quarter gram of meth. Likely he was never at that house. Now a toddler is STILL in a burn unit ICU.

    How can you justify a SWAT raid over a quarter gram of anything?
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,311 Senior Member
    "The CI claimed he bought a quarter gram of meth. Likely he was never at that house."

    I'm sure you've never qualified an informant. It requires a lot of legalization to do so. There are steps to get a CI legally qualified through the court system. Not knowing, I think the informant was telling the truth, and a quarter gram was likely all the money LEOs could afford to let walk.

    There's no reason to assume the cop threw a f/b inside KNOWING kids were inside. That's Monday morning quaterbacking and based on no facts so far presented. Were there kiddie seats inside the car? Dopers used to do this to fade heat. Not a definitive fact.

    Let's assume the motivation for a search warrant was legal. The no-knock? I don't know. That's another question. It's not possible to judge the reasons without seeing the affidavit.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,808 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    "The CI claimed he bought a quarter gram of meth. Likely he was never at that house."

    I'm sure you've never qualified an informant. It requires a lot of legalization to do so. There are steps to get a CI legally qualified through the court system. Not knowing, I think the informant was telling the truth, and a quarter gram was likely all the money LEOs could afford to let walk.

    There's no reason to assume the cop threw a f/b inside KNOWING kids were inside. That's Monday morning quaterbacking and based on no facts so far presented. Were there kiddie seats inside the car? Dopers used to do this to fade heat. Not a definitive fact.

    Let's think about this for a minute...Four car seats inside a minivan is what dopers do? What about the FACT that no dope was found in the residence?

    CIs in YOUR jurisdiction may have been vetted by a judge, but the modern CI is generally busted and cuts a deal to rat on someone else to lessen their own sentence. Just ask Kathryn Johnston. Oh wait, you can't. The SWAT team killed her in her living room.
    As justification for the no-knock warrant, the Atlanta Police Department initially claimed that the police were searching for drug dealers after a police informant was said to have bought crack at Johnston's home. However, the informant later denied having bought drugs at her house

    The SWAT team planted weed to justify her murder. Nice police work.


    More? Here's a few:
    1. Armed agents raid animal shelter in search of baby deer—and kill it.

    Shelter employee Ray Schulze was working in the barn of the Society of St. Francis animal shelter in Wisconsin, when a swarm of squad cars arrived with a search warrant for a baby fawn.

    “[There were] nine DNR agents and four deputy sheriffs and they were all armed to the teeth,” Schulze told WISN 12 News.

    A family who thought the animal had been abandoned brought the fawn, named Giggles, to the shelter. The agents told the staff they had come to seize the deer because the law forbids possession of wildlife. Schulze explained that the deer was scheduled to go to the wildlife rehabilitation reserve the following day. He believed the officers were going to take the deer to the shelter, but to his horror, the officers returned carrying the baby deer over their shoulder in a body bag.

    “I said, ‘Why did you do that?’ He said, ‘That’s our policy’, and I said, ‘That’s one hell of a policy,” Schulze said.

    The supervisor, Jennifer Niemeyer, claimed the law requires Department of National Resources agents to euthanize animals like Giggles because they may be carrying diseases or be dangerous to humans. However, when questioned why the department didn’t just phone the shelter to advise them of the seizure instead of spending resources on a SWAT team, Niemeyer replied: “If a sheriff’s department is going in to do a search warrant on a drug bust, they don’t call them and ask them to voluntarily surrender their marijuana … before they show up.”

    2. Girl’s home wrongfully raided with flashbangs despite door being open.

    In Indiana, a SWAT team raided an 18-year-old girl’s house smashing her windows and throwing flashbangs inside, despite the fact that the girl had her front door open and was just watching TV. In a case of mistaken identity, someone else in the street had signed onto the girl’s open WiFi network and was making threats about police. Once the police realized their error, they advised the girl to secure her WiFi account.

    Their target was actually a teenage boy who admitted he had a “smart mouth” and a dislike for cops but denied making any threats. According to Gizmodo, the boy had posted a message that read, “Cops Beware! I’m proud of my country but I hate police of any kind. I have explosives :) made in America. Evansville will feel my pain.”

    3. SWAT team raids DJ’s studio to enforce copyright law.

    Federal police in Atlanta used a SWAT team to help the recording industryenforce copyright laws despite the fact that the target was not even involved in commercial piracy operations. The local news reported that a famous mixtape DJ was under investigation for piracy, but supporters say he is not a bootlegger.

    Even if the officers had found evidence of piracy, the bigger issue, according toReason, is why the Recording Industry Association of America was part of the police action in the first place and why a SWAT team was used to raid a professional studio under investigation for a “non-violent white-collar crime.”

    4. SWAT squad invades private poker game.

    A low-stakes poker game in South Carolina turned gory after a SWAT team tried to gain access into the home resulting in a 20-minute shoot-out between the players and the police. The game host, 72-year-old Aaron Awty, shot through the front door injuring a sheriff. The players said was hard of hearing and thought the house was being robbed when he began shooting at the door.

    Four officers returned fire using high-powered assault weapons, according toPokerati. The 12 people were ticketed for unlawful betting and released. Among the items police seized were cocaine, money, two poker machines, two poker tables, gambling paraphernalia and cards and chips.

    5. SWAT team raids man’s home in search of stolen koi fish.

    An Austin SWAT team destroyed the home of a man in a search for missing koi fish which had been stolen from the Zilker Botanical Gardens. Eric Philippus said 10 to 12 officers came to his house knocking down the door and drawing guns on his 17-year-old son and his girlfriend. Philippus, who has a koi fishpond in his backyard but wasn’t home at the time of the incident, said he did not steal the fish.

    “They’re looking for koi in strange places—in the bedroom, in the closet, places that can’t hold water or fish,” he said. “It’s ridiculous. I love my koi fish more than anything but I never point a loaded gun at anybody over a fish without even checking the information,” he told Stateman.

    6. Sex toys, condoms and pajamas seized in drug/prostitution SWAT team raid.

    In a suspected drug and prostitution raid in Boston, police seized an unusual number of items including $13 from a bathroom, green pajamas worn by a suspect during a drug deal, sex toys, a vibrator and condoms, lubricant and a hotel card. Before raiding the building at 5am the Boston SWAT team detonated “distraction devices” like bright flashes and loud bangs to disorient the occupants of the premises.

    7. Peaceful monks arrested in SWAT team action.

    According to KETV TV, Tibetan monks on a peace mission were apprehended by a SWAT team of immigration officials, in Iowa. The monks had come to the U.S. on a church-sponsored mission to spread the word about the plight of the Tibetan people. However, when they refused to recognize their sponsoring leader as the reincarnation of Jesus Chris and Buddha, they were abandoned.

    The monks then traveled to Iowa not realizing that their immigration visas had been terminated, before immigration officials showed up at the door with a SWAT team to arrest them. The monks were able to stay out of jail thanks to an immigration officer who arranged for them to stay in Carter Lake pending an immigration hearing.

    8. Feds raid Amish dairy farm—twice—for selling unpasteurized milk.

    SWAT agents stormed a Pennsylvania Amish dairy farm wrongfully accusing the owner of selling raw milk interstate. The agents arrived at 4.30am while the owner Dan Allgyer’s family was still asleep and he was preparing to milk the cows. A warrant was served upon him claiming the police had “credible evidence” he was involved in interstate commerce.

    When Allgyer questioned the warrant which stated it was valid only at “reasonable times during ordinary business hours,” one of the officers replied that “ordinary business hours for agriculture start at 5am,” according to NaturalNews.

    9. Police unlawfully invade a series of barbershops without warrants.

    In Florida, up to 14 armed police raided over 50 barbershops in predominantly black and Hispanic neighborhoods without warrants. The police were in SWAT gear armed with masks and guns and police dogs, according to Reuters. Over 30 barbers were handcuffed, in front of customers, on criminal charges of barbering without an active license.

    Following the incident, a number of officers were fired for acting unlawfully, with many of the barbers seeking compensation for the mistreatment.

    10.Police forcibly search and detain 19 patrons in gay bar.

    In Georgia, a federal lawsuit was filed against Atlanta police by a gay rights group after 20 to 30 officers dressed in SWAT team attire raided a gay bar forcing patrons to lie on the floor amongst spilled beer and broken glass while running background checks on everyone. The police were looking for illegal activity but found no evidence of public sex, drugs or weapons.

    According to the CNN report, the officers included the “Red Dog Unit,” a special force providing “aggressive police presence.” Many of the patrons were threatened with violence and physical harm and subject to anti-gay slurs. No patrons were charged with any crime. The city of Atlanta eventually agreed to a $1 million settlement with customers and employees of the nightclub.

    11. SWAT team confiscates wood used to make instruments during illegal raid.

    In Tennessee, federal marshals raided the Gibson Guitar Corporation manufacturing facilities in an effort to charge the owner with trafficking illegally obtained “foreign” wood in its production of guitars. The armed federal agents seized millions of dollars worth of imported wood and ebony without proper notice or a warning or a valid reason:

    “We had a raid with federal marshals that were armed, that came in, evacuated our factory, shut down production, sent our employees home and confiscated wood,” CEO Henry Juszkiewicz told NPR.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,311 Senior Member
    We really can't say in individual cases what is right and what is wrong, we weren't there and only know what the media tells us. My position is to many innocents seem to be involved and to many mistakes seem to be made by these $25,000 a year paramilitary wannabes. If the article is to be believed, and increase of 36000% in SWAT raids while crime is at a 40 yr low seems askew. They raid stuff that used to be handled by a single cop. A fawn for Gods sake? Why does that require a SWAT team? Give someone a toy and they want to play with it.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,808 Senior Member
    BAMAAK wrote: »
    We really can't say in individual cases what is right and what is wrong,

    Yes we can. These 'holes work for US. They are employees. Employers decide what is right or wrong. Unless they are unionized...nevermind...
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,311 Senior Member
    If you're going to quote, at least quote the whole sentence. I don't trust the media enough to totally pass judgement based on one source. I also don't believe a word the Gov't says so unless I see it with my own eyes or am somehow convinced some other way, I take most media stories with a grain of salt unless facts are presented.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,808 Senior Member
    BAMAAK wrote: »
    If you're going to quote, at least quote the whole sentence. I don't trust the media enough to totally pass judgement based on one source. I also don't believe a word the Gov't says so unless I see it with my own eyes or am somehow convinced some other way, I take most media stories with a grain of salt unless facts are presented.

    We agree on this. I don't trust the media, but I trust government employees even less. At least the media is trying to sell a product.

    FYI, I gave multiple sources.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • RazorbackerRazorbacker Senior Member Posts: 4,646 Senior Member
    Well, I'll tell ya one thing that's wrong, any way you wanna slice it. A f/b grenade going off on an infants pillow and literally blowing his face off.
    Teach your children to love guns, they'll never be able to afford drugs
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,311 Senior Member
    Well, I'll tell ya one thing that's wrong, any way you wanna slice it. A f/b grenade going off on an infants pillow and literally blowing his face off.

    I agree with that. But not "literally" which is definite..."virtually" would be a better word. It was a very bad outcome. As I said in another post, that's where I grew up where this thing happened. A horrible thing happened. But I'm sure it wasn't intentional, as some seem to infer.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,429 Senior Member
    Trigger-happy police officers are nothing new. Over 30 years ago a young woman was assigned to work for my mother in the human resources department of a shoe manufacturer in Nashville. She was a former Metro PD officer who had ben fired after a shooting incident during a hostage standoff. Metro had just recently switched from revolvers to high-capacity 9MM pistols, and when a robber took several hostages during a botched robbery the cops surrounded the place. The robber slipped out the back door and got away while the perimeter was being set up, and as soon as he was gone, the victims started running out the front door. They were met with accurate gunfire by the female rookie. She dropped five of them! Fortunately there were no fatalities, but the resulting lawsuits cost the city millions and got her fired.
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,808 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    But I'm sure it wasn't intentional, as some seem to infer.

    Some seem to infer that a minivan with four car seats in the driveway equals dope house. You know, to "fade heat'.

    Terrible police work (lack of real investigation), militarization of cops (war on drugs/terror/Americans), and horrific policies (no-knocks, allowance of flash grenade) is what got this kid burned and counless others murdered.

    There is no valid reason why this happens 150 times a day in the Land of the "Free".
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    I guess SWAT tactics and equipment have changed a lot since the movie "SWAT" came out and they rode around in a black or green bread delivery truck. Maybe I'm thunking of a TV series (1970s) and an older movie, not the 2003 movie.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,628 Senior Member
    Isn't there some middle ground between no-knock raids and not doing no-knock raids? Nobody stays indoors forever, can't at least some of these suspects be arrested on the job, in their driveway, pulled over on a street, or wherever else? There are always other options, other ways. Yes, an alternative may require an expensive, time consuming stake-out before the bust can go down, but with all the mistakes being made, that extra time might be put to good use confirming addresses, vetting CI information, and some extra due diligence about just how critical it is to raid dairy farmers, barbers and guitar makers.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,183 Senior Member
    Worst no knock raid gone bad EVER; ATF raid on the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas. Some of us have long memories. They could have arrested David Koresh on his daily run, but that wouldn't have been as spectacular.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,429 Senior Member
    The Oklahoma City bombing was the direct result of the Waco raid, also. My brother was 12 miles away in Edmond, and felt the shock of the blast.
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • RazorbackerRazorbacker Senior Member Posts: 4,646 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    The Oklahoma City bombing was the direct result of the Waco raid, also. My brother was 12 miles away in Edmond, and felt the shock of the blast.
    Jerry

    I remember where I was that day. I was in Springdale and my first call was some folks from OK City. They had the TV on and I blew off my other calls that day and just watched the news coverage most of the day.
    Teach your children to love guns, they'll never be able to afford drugs
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