My Musings on the Fall of Iraq

horselipshorselips Senior MemberPosts: 3,628 Senior Member
It's Deja Vu all over again. Remember South Vietnam? The commies launched a small, limited attack up north, suddenly the South Vietnamese Army melted away, the Democratic party buried its head in the sand, and in nothing flat the NVA and Viet Cong take Saigon, and we're doing the last-helicopter-on-the-roof thing. I predicted this years ago as soon as President Barry publicly announced we were abandoning Iraq, and then formally notified the Taliban we were abandoning Afghanistan. Don't think for a minute Afghanistan won't fall as soon as we vacate the premises. As Harry Truman is noted for losing China, Barack Obama will be remembered as the "President Who Lost The Middle East."

Puppet governments and client armies don't usually fare too well. The USSR tried to set up a puppet government in Afghanistan and it quickly fell to the Mujahideen. Religion ranks with self-defense and Liberty as a military motivator. Look at the the Muslim expansion in the 7th-10th centuries, the counter-attack of the Crusades in the 11th-12th, even Cromwell's New Model Army to see the power of religion in action. Emperor worship drove the Japanese to suicidal fanaticism in WW2. If you think the demoralized and dispirited Iraqi Army of Maliki will stand against Al Qaeda's feverish Islamism and the fulfillment of the ISIS (or ISIL) caliphate, think again.

Complicating the issue is the unfathomable and enduring immaturity and unsophistication of Muslim culture. As old as it is, over 13 centuries old, Islam has yet to progress even as far as the Magna Carta regarding recognition of the individual. The Koran makes no distinction between religion and politics - no separation between church and state - and dumber-than-stumps Muslims are fine with that. Except a Muslim culture puts its faith on the back burner and goes secular as Kemal Ataturk led Turkey to do, as Egypt is trying to do, garden-variety Muslims can only be governed by a dictator or a theocracy. The mindset necessary for a functioning, strong democracy eludes their hysterical masses. Especially when those masses are split between irreconcilable Sunni and Shia denominations. As bad as the wars between Catholics and Protestants were in the 16th-17th century, the Islamic civil war we are witnessing today will be worse, and will claim millions of lives and wreck whole countries. Fine. Serves them right for reading history and repeating it anyway.
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Replies

  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 4,655 Senior Member
    My stepson was a tank platoon commander during his first tour in Iraq. About nine months in, his M1 Abhrams got blown up by a suicide donkey.

    He observed..."It'll never change. Some a** is always trying to blow your a** up. The country's full of azzes. Let them have it".

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,183 Senior Member
    Maybe if we just leave them alone, the different factions of Muslims will eventually turn on each other and get in a religious war and take themselves out.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 11,009 Senior Member
    Sounds like Baghdad is going down tonight.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • SirGeorgeKillianSirGeorgeKillian Senior Member Posts: 5,458 Senior Member
    I have a friend still there, praying for Shaun's safe return.
    Unless life also hands you water and sugar, your lemonade is gonna suck!
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    I'm in love with a Glock
  • JeeperJeeper Senior Member Posts: 2,952 Senior Member
    Well said Horselips.

    Luis
    Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,311 Senior Member
    Another slap in the face of those who have sacrificed.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Whole region is a powder keg. Sunni/Shiite/Kurds with some former disgruntled Bath Party members thrown in the mix with Iran/other countries getting involved make any kind of peace agreement fragile between the lot.

    I think they just enjoy killing each other, especially when no Infidels are around. We gave then a golden opportunity for freedom and to prosper, but they refuse to live in harmony with each other and would rather destroy each other over old tribal feuds/religious sects.
    Don't know what help they will get from us, the push/takeover can be stopped, but should have never happened in the first place.

    Maybe it will end up as a "Tri-State" country all with affiliations to different neighboring countries and those in the region.

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/06/13/militants-vow-to-march-on-baghdad-as-obama-administration-mulls-response/


    "Iraqi soldiers abandoned their posts there without any resistance, the officials told The Associated Press.

    The fresh gains by the fighters from the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIS) come as Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's Shiite-led government struggles to form a coherent response after the Sunni militants blitzed and captured the country's second-largest city of Mosul as well as other, smaller communities and military and police bases.

    The new offensive by the militant group is the biggest threat to Iraq's stability since the U.S. withdrawal at the end of 2011, and it has pushed the nation closer to a precipice that would partition it into Sunni, Shiite and Kurdish zones."
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • JeeperJeeper Senior Member Posts: 2,952 Senior Member
    BAMAAK wrote: »
    Another slap in the face of those who have sacrificed.

    We should have NEVER sacrificed a single soldier to that place. What a terrible waste of the lives of our servicemen and women.

    Luis
    Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
  • Pelagic KayakerPelagic Kayaker Banned Posts: 1,503 Senior Member
    Jeeper wrote: »
    We should have NEVER sacrificed a single soldier to that place. What a terrible waste of the lives of our servicemen and women.

    Luis

    Agree. Long after my military service I'm still trying to figure out that whole "sacrifice" thing.
    "The reflection upon my situation and that of this army produces many an uneasy hour when all around me are wrapped in sleep. Few people know the predicament we are in" ~General George Washington, January 14, 1776
  • shootbrownelkshootbrownelk Senior Member Posts: 2,025 Senior Member
    Agreed. Bush/Cheney/O'bummer/Biden thought it was a GREAT idea. I remember Cheney saying that our troops would be greeted as liberators...complete with rose petals, and that the Iraqi oil would pay for the war! What a crystal ball that Draft-Dodger Cheney has!
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    horse & Big, superb commentaries and well spoken!

    My only slight difference is that Obama isn't at fault here. As Big says, we did give them a "golden opportunity" (at the cost of many allied lives and injuries) and they let it all slip away. They simply do not care enough about their own country to live in freedom. Obama may have wrong motives but it's correct to pull out our troops -- we have NO business trying to protect people who simply don't care about themselves enough, as clearly seen by the wholesale desertions of the Iraqi troops now. And as you remember, just the same sort of flight that they did during Gulf War 2.

    What Big says about Islam also is spot on. That religion simply doesn't encourage personal freedom -- anyone ever read the Koran? -- and that, plus a general celebration of ignorance, brings disaster.

    Neither of those countries is worth a single American life. I still admit to being enthusiastic about the original Iraq war -- we were in fact bailing out Kuwait -- but otherwise, no.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,509 Senior Member
    Well there are several things going here....

    One- we were greeted as liberators for the about the first 6 months. After that the dissenting Shia forces hiding in Iran came back into the country and the 5% that were the diehards brought AQI into being.

    I am not mad for being sent there, I am mad we didn't stay fulfill the promises we told those folks we would do.

    We created the current situation. As much foreign goveremt manipulation we do, we allow all the dominos to be set up for this right before our eyes. The first was the referendum vote of 2005. That should have failed. It would have shown the sunni's that while they are minority, they still have a voice other than violence. The constitution vote should have been similiar. Both times we alienated the Sunni population. Next we allowed a Shia government to emerge. Not just partly Shia, damn near all Shia. Now this was all well and good as long as we were on the ground supporting the Sunni/Arab spring with initiatives such as the Sons of Iraq. In the northern sections we allowed the Kurds to begin building their empire. Even allowing them to institute their own currency and immigration rules. In 2008 the Shia government was completely infiltrated by Shia special groups like Badr corp and the upper echelon of JAM. Did you notice how they faded away from the news? It is because they gained what they wanted. The moved into the civil ministry and started running water and hospitals.
    So we watched all of this happen. We chased AQI all over Iraq but not in the deep of the anbar Provence. Not along the Syrian border. Then and then we pulled up stakes. No legitimacy for he sons of Iraq, no restraints on the Kurds, and a Shia government with a hand out and open arms to Iran.
    What did we expect to happen? The Sunnis now felt abandoned and cornered. They couldn't turn to AQI. They knew they didn't want that. So the old school ba'athist floating around Anbar put together ISI. Syria allowed it to become ISIL and then later ISIS. And now they are executing all the old Baathist party ideas of creating one Sunni state from Iraq to Syria to Egypt.
    The Kurds are going to begin taking each of the northern cities. Kirkuk was a message. That city has always boasted it has a mixed population, but was in Kurd lands. If ISIS moves any further north or east, the Kurds will jump with both feet. They will not go back to a pre-03 life.
    Iran is he issue that is going to erupt the whole area. Especially of we invite them without KSA or Jordan's permission. You can not bring Persians into an Arab issue with permission... Me and my brother against my cousin, me and my cousin against the world.. Persians are the world.
    We either have to leave this alone or go back in. A one foot in solution is going to exponentially make matters worse.
    I know the cost. But I will go back to make this right if I have to.
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • AntonioAntonio Senior Member Posts: 2,342 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    ......Neither of those countries is worth a single American life......

    That's what I've always claimed.

    Your main problem is the huge oil hunger you have, specially to keep the modern western world working as such. If they implode into a massive radical islamic tribe, some countries might eventually negotiate with them for the resource at absurd prices, but you and other European nations will probably be answered by the islamic version of"No soup for you!"

    Only Israel has the relative "moral authority" to fight them. Hope they'll be able to hold.

    And regarding the "bringing democracy" issue, they're like underage teenagers you're trying to keep away from drinking booze: Medically, morally and legally it's the right thing to do and almost no one won't agree with that, but teens being teens, they don't care about your good,rational intentions; they just want to get wasted to oblivion and "enjoy" the 3-day hangover no matter what.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    I remember saying some time ago that I thought that we'd left Iraq with a reasonable government (for that part of the world).

    I still think this was true, but the problem is, they people just don't care enough about their own country to "keep the faith" and preserve that somewhat-okay government. At least not enough of them. A sad situation, really, considering the deaths that resulted and the end effect, which is essentially that the country is headed back where it was 25 years ago

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Thanks, too, center, for some excellent observations! You obviously know the situation pretty well and I learned a lot just from your post.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,509 Senior Member
    One thing that kinda aggravates me about some of the comments I read and hear is most folks, including a good majority of Soldiers have no no clue....

    Obama did screw this up. He pulled us out half way through. He was told this was a longer fight. He was showed him the path ahead. And he said screw it..he wasted American life. He abandoned the cause they died for.

    They did want to protect themselves. But they knew they had further to go. We gave them a half solution, told them to deal with it, and walked out. I remember sitting in the key leader meetings and listening to the Iraqi colonels pled for us to stay longer and help them. Iraqi generals asking if they could go to Washington and present their case for their people. I remember siting with the judges when we started doing warrant based hits and having them tell me they want Islam to succeed but rule of law must succeed also. I remember talking with the sheiks and Imams and listening them tell me how the American presence was teaching the younger generation positive lessons.

    Reading the Koran gives you no more of an understanding Islam than reading a car manual lets you know how a car handles on the road. Until you live with them, eat their food, and talk with them will you understand them.
    But you are right Islam is not a religion based on the individual. He'll the name even says it. Islam means peace thru submission... The entire meaning is peace thru the submission of allah's will. Their god is not the same one we know in the Christian world. Allah demands absolute submission to his will. What do expect of religion born from a zero sum environment...

    Every deployment I have had after 03 was at the lowest level and with the center of gravity in the fight...the people

    So where do we draw the line of when it is okay to sacrifice American life? It was okay in WWII? Why ?that was Europe's fight. Why was it play in Kuwait? All we were then was KSA's hired army. Korea was okay? Panama? Surely not in 1898 or WWI. Or let me guess Haiti and Somalia.
    You just can't pick and choose what cause for freedom you want to support and the ones you don't. It is all or nothing. You are either on the moral high ground or not, there is no gentle rise to allow you to be halfway. I understand we have interest and not friends... But it is still the same.
    I've said it before. If it requires my life so that someone else can enjoy the freedoms my family does, I gladly give it.
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,509 Senior Member
    You know, In 2008, during the elections and they knew the American tide was going to shift. I had to look my counterpart in the eye and tell him America is a country of honor and we will see Iraq all the way thru their transformation....

    I will forever hate this administration for making that a lie.
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    We do have a recent history of getting some countries 'A Little Bit Pregnant' with freedom and then pulling out before the job is done.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,700 Senior Member
    Rebuilding Iraq could have worked, if we would have installed a military government and stayed for twenty years, forcing them to adapt to the American way of doing things. Of course, that's impossible when our own politicians are wrecking our own economy and subverting the Constitution that made us great, to begin with.

    Now that the inevitable result of pulling out has arrived, there is nothing to be done under this dishonest and apathetic leadership (ours, not theirs). I don't want this President to send another man to his death for a cause that he and half of the country don't give a damn about. We will eventually pay a very dear price for bailing out of the Middle East without killing all of our enemies there, first. But we don't have the leadership to accomplish anything of value there, now, and the American people will not support it, anyway.
  • pjames777pjames777 Senior Member Posts: 1,078 Senior Member
    Sorry but this really pi**es me off! We sacrificed thousands of men and women for this chump of a President to flush it all away! What an insult to the brave military personnel that gave up so much! I am livid!
    :angry::angry::angry:
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    These 200 American contractors stuck in Balad concern me. They are there to set up facilities/train Iraq for the F-16s we are/were sending there.

    If this report is accurate, it's not good.

    http://www.wnd.com/2014/06/200-u-s-contractors-surrounded-by-jihadists-in-iraq/
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,135 Senior Member
    And the 5 Gitmo prisoners we released back into that radical powder keg...wonderful.

    I learned a lot from the very insightful commentary in this thread.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    I remember sitting in the key leader meetings etc etc.

    Wow! center, you've got some terrific insight on the situation. I had zero idea the Iraqis were so desperate for our help after the war itself. (the "good" Iraqis of course).

    So in your opinion there was a real chance for Iraq to move into a genuinely temperate role or position? That changes the whole picture.

    Thanks again for sharing the info, dude.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    We do have a recent history of getting some countries 'A Little Bit Pregnant' with freedom and then pulling out before the job is done.

    Premature eviction? Premature ejection?

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • RazorbackerRazorbacker Senior Member Posts: 4,646 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    Wow! center, you've got some terrific insight on the situation. I had zero idea the Iraqis were so desperate for our help after the war itself. (the "good" Iraqis of course).

    So in your opinion there was a real chance for Iraq to move into a genuinely temperate role or position? That changes the whole picture.

    Thanks again for sharing the info, dude.

    I wonder hoe different things might be if the media had told the story he tells with the same coverage they gave Abu Garib? (sp? that whole prison story) Or if a real CIC had brought his story to the American people
    Teach your children to love guns, they'll never be able to afford drugs
  • shushshush Senior Member Posts: 6,259 Senior Member
    .......... we were greeted as liberators for the about the first 6 months......



    1969: British troops sent into Northern Ireland

    The British Government has sent troops into Northern Ireland in what it says is a "limited operation" to restore law and order.

    ''The arrival of the British troops was greeted with cheering and singing from behind the barricades in the Roman Catholic area of Londonderry.''

    The one that people forget, if you not too sure,

    British troops where first sent to defend the Roman Catholic Northern Irish.


    bisley wrote: »
    Rebuilding Iraq could have worked, if we would have installed a military government and stayed for twenty years, forcing them to adapt to the American way of doing things. Of course, that's impossible when our own politicians are wrecking our own economy and subverting the Constitution that made us great, to begin with.

    Now that the inevitable result of pulling out has arrived, there is nothing to be done under this dishonest and apathetic leadership (ours, not theirs). I don't want this President to send another man to his death for a cause that he and half of the country don't give a damn about. We will eventually pay a very dear price for bailing out of the Middle East without killing all of our enemies there, first. But we don't have the leadership to accomplish anything of value there, now, and the American people will not support it, anyway.


    Been there done that, long time.

    Get up, rub your knee, wipe your nose and;



    Or as a dear friend once said '' STAY THE FLOCK OUT OF IT''

    cjp wrote: »..... Oh dear God, I've admitted to liking something Limey.I'll never hear the end of this.

    Jayhawker wrote: »...But seriously Shush....

    Big Chief wrote: ».........walking around with a greasy butt ain't no fun, though!

     


     

  • RazorbackerRazorbacker Senior Member Posts: 4,646 Senior Member
    Good thing we didn't stay the flock out of Western Europe during and after WWII
    Teach your children to love guns, they'll never be able to afford drugs
  • shushshush Senior Member Posts: 6,259 Senior Member
    Good thing we didn't stay the flock out of Western Europe during and after WWII



    You where late again, but one way or the other, we would have coped, as normal.

    PS.
    Does this mean I have not been ''ignore button'' done?

    Joy!!!!!!!!!


    PPS.

    By the way that was not a knock down but very sound advice,
    '' If the sand gets up your Kyber Pass stay away from the desert.''

    cjp wrote: »..... Oh dear God, I've admitted to liking something Limey.I'll never hear the end of this.

    Jayhawker wrote: »...But seriously Shush....

    Big Chief wrote: ».........walking around with a greasy butt ain't no fun, though!

     


     

  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,509 Senior Member
    Sam, I do...

    Iraq will never be a democracy in the sense we we know the term. Islam will not allow it. But it could have the freedoms that are enjoyed by the other Arab states in the region. Look at Jordan, Kuwait, KSA...
    Granted I am not a big brain in the belt way, but it could've been done. It would have taken time and support. We would have had to bring these other Arab states to the table to help. Arab problems require Arab solutions. Just like European problems require European solutions (Bosnia , Kosovo). Iraq has the wealth to see it thru too. Between lush vacation lands and oil in Kurdistan all the way through to the southern oil fields. But that wealth can't be realized while bombs are on the menu of the day. Heck there is even an opportunity for discovery and historical research in the area... Civilization did start there. That is another source of revenue.
    You can't expect a population to change overnight. While we in America have always been vanguards and fighters, that has not been the case in Iraq. In the course of insurgencies and training, it takes at the very least 8-10 years for things to begin to take root. Another 6 after that to see it thru. Why? You have to capture and raise that new generation. The boys and girls that are 8-12 will then be the young adults ready to lead their country. Can America mKe that investment? Why not we did it Korea and Japan. But we can't do it alone in the Middle East... Back to Arab neighbor in involvement....
    I know there are more complications and it is just not that simple. You have to keep the legitimate crooks out of the new government. You have to vet everyone. And in a place like that, it will almost be like removing salt from the ocean.

    That's just the view from my foxhole.
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Thanks again, center. Excellent post. Learned a lot here in this small thread. Too bad our leaders didn't learn the same thing, or at least act like it.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
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