My Musings on the Fall of Iraq

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Replies

  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 6,945 Senior Member
    Reading the Koran gives you no more of an understanding Islam than reading a car manual lets you know how a car handles on the road. Until you live with them, eat their food, and talk with them will you understand them.
    But you are right Islam is not a religion based on the individual. He'll the name even says it. Islam means peace thru submission... The entire meaning is peace thru the submission of allah's will. Their god is not the same one we know in the Christian world. Allah demands absolute submission to his will. What do expect of religion born from a zero sum environment...

    So where do we draw the line of when it is okay to sacrifice American life? . . .You just can't pick and choose what cause for freedom you want to support and the ones you don't. It is all or nothing. You are either on the moral high ground or not, there is no gentle rise to allow you to be halfway.

    I've said it before. If it requires my life so that someone else can enjoy the freedoms my family does, I gladly give it.

    Here's the thing, and you've said it yourself - they don't WANT that freedom. In the case of Iraq, as Adam Baldwin indicated in Full Metal Jacket, there are better words to get your balls blown off for. Any RATIONAL nation in history would have looked at the faith-blind, backward nature of the inhabitants, seen there was no changing it, and either left it alone or rolled in to steal their oil. We rolled in with the dual error of thinking we could change it with NO intent to steal their oil. We've got thousands of American dead and maimed, a Middle East that's going to continue on as it has for centuries before our country even existed, and we're still paying over $4.00 a gallon for gas. Bang the wall with me guys.:bang:
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,803 Senior Member
    Jeeper wrote: »
    We should have NEVER sacrificed a single soldier to that place. What a terrible waste of the lives of our servicemen and women.

    Luis

    I disagree. Iraq had a chance until Odummer took over the U.S. The Dummycraps always throw freedom under the bus. That should tell some clueless Americans why not to vote for them. If the dummycraps and leftist wouldn't telegraph their punches we might have had a chance. But Odummer was telling Alqaida in Iraq and the Taliban in Afghanistan when we were leaving before he got in office. These idiots will never learn. Same with Vietnam. The left was crying about bombing the north killing civilians. But that's just how we won WWII. Not so much killing civilians as attacking at all costs. If some innocents died that's tough because that's war. But nobody promised anybody a rose garden. You can't have a war without it. War is Hell and only can be won by total dedication to killing the enemy. That's life. We had North Vietnam crying for peace but we quit before the deciding blow. We should have kept bombing until they came to the peace table and actually offered something for us. That war like all wars was no picnic.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • shushshush Senior Member Posts: 6,259 Senior Member
    Strange bedfellows?

    Iraq conflict: Iran's Rouhani 'ready to help'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-27847498

    Iran is ready to assist the Iraqi government in its battle against extremist Sunni Islamists, President Hassan Rouhani has said.
    Iran has close ties with the Shia-dominated Iraqi leadership which came to power after the toppling of President Saddam Hussein, whose powerbase was the country's Sunni minority.

    Iraq conflict: Obama to 'review options'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-27844200

    The US will do our part, but understand that ultimately it is up to the Iraqis as a sovereign nation to solve their problems.
    ''Mr Obama told reporters that ISIS represented a danger not just to Iraq and its people but that "it could pose a threat eventually to American interests as well
    He said Iraq needed additional support to
    "break the momentum of extremist groups and bolster the capabilities of Iraqi security forces".

    Now if we could just get the State of Israel to help the Kurds out.

    The enemy of my enemy is my friend. :hug:

    cjp wrote: »..... Oh dear God, I've admitted to liking something Limey.I'll never hear the end of this.

    Jayhawker wrote: »...But seriously Shush....

    Big Chief wrote: ».........walking around with a greasy butt ain't no fun, though!

     


     

  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,985 Senior Member
    I kinds fell sorry for the Kurds who are our best "Friends" of all the sects in Iraq. We abandoned them at the end of the fist Gulf War, promised to help them and left them literally hanging. The Turks to the north hate them as do the others south in Iraq. I know the Kurds must have dome something hundreds of years ago to keep the feuding going.

    Post WWI, here again sure messed up that region and left the world a lot of future problems.

    http://www.ask.com/wiki/Kurds_in_Iraq?o=2801&qsrc=999&ad=doubleDown&an=apn&ap=ask.com

    https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080821133756AACdFwd
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Considering what has happened to Iraq (and other similar countries) I was reminded of the comment made by Benjamin Franklin when exiting Independence Hall in 1797, after the Constitution was drafted:

    “Well, Doctor, what have we got—a Republic or a Monarchy?” “A Republic, if you can keep it.”

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,271 Senior Member
    The high school in Nashville where I spent my last year before retiring had 30-somrthing ethnic groups represented in the student body, including a large population of Kurdish kids. They were by far the most surly, disrespectful, and generally obnoxious of all the students I had to deal with. The parents were worse than the kids! If those people are an example of Kurds in general, no wonder they're hated!
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • shushshush Senior Member Posts: 6,259 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    .......Post WWI, here again sure messed up that region and left the world a lot of future problems.

    Got to really blame the Ottomans for siding with Germany and the Central Powers and then getting beat by the Brits.
    .......The League of Nations Mandate putting the region under British control and thus creating The Iraq and a few other countries we have today around there.
    .................Well and the Brits, for doing...............well, what we do so well. :devil:

    cjp wrote: »..... Oh dear God, I've admitted to liking something Limey.I'll never hear the end of this.

    Jayhawker wrote: »...But seriously Shush....

    Big Chief wrote: ».........walking around with a greasy butt ain't no fun, though!

     


     

  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 10,727 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    These 200 American contractors stuck in Balad concern me. They are there to set up facilities/train Iraq for the F-16s we are/were sending there.

    If this report is accurate, it's not good.

    http://www.wnd.com/2014/06/200-u-s-contractors-surrounded-by-jihadists-in-iraq/

    Any update on the folks still on the airbase? I can't find anything new, but my search-fu is suspect.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,985 Senior Member
    CHIRO1989 wrote: »
    Any update on the folks still on the airbase? I can't find anything new, but my search-fu is suspect.

    Not a bit, I stumbled on that article yesterday through a link on Drudge (I think). Man I hope they are out by now.

    We used to call Balad/Camp Anaconda "Mortar City" back in 04. My second trip to Iraq, I flew into there under mortar attack and the night I left, damned if it wasn't getting hit again.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • JeeperJeeper Senior Member Posts: 2,952 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    I disagree. Iraq had a chance until Odummer took over the U.S. The Dummycraps always throw freedom under the bus. That should tell some clueless Americans why not to vote for them. If the dummycraps and leftist wouldn't telegraph their punches we might have had a chance. But Odummer was telling Alqaida in Iraq and the Taliban in Afghanistan when we were leaving before he got in office. These idiots will never learn. Same with Vietnam. The left was crying about bombing the north killing civilians. But that's just how we won WWII. Not so much killing civilians as attacking at all costs. If some innocents died that's tough because that's war. But nobody promised anybody a rose garden. You can't have a war without it. War is Hell and only can be won by total dedication to killing the enemy. That's life. We had North Vietnam crying for peace but we quit before the deciding blow. We should have kept bombing until they came to the peace table and actually offered something for us. That war like all wars was no picnic.

    The thing is.... it's not our business. The issue isn't whether or not we CAN change their system, but whether or not we SHOULD be involved in their issues. I still maintain that we have NO BUSINESS there, and thus, should not waste one life there.

    Luis
    Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,652 Senior Member
    Jeeper wrote: »
    The thing is.... it's not our business. The issue isn't whether or not we CAN change their system, but whether or not we SHOULD be involved in their issues. I still maintain that we have NO BUSINESS there, and thus, should not waste one life there.

    Luis

    Agreed completely.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,803 Senior Member
    Jeeper wrote: »
    The thing is.... it's not our business. The issue isn't whether or not we CAN change their system, but whether or not we SHOULD be involved in their issues. I still maintain that we have NO BUSINESS there, and thus, should not waste one life there.

    Luis

    Jeeper I can appreciate your view point. and true, maybe we just should never have been there. But that region will never change if the rest of the world just leaves it there. It can change. I have lived and worked in the Middle East. And there are Muslims, and many of them, that would like a change. Kuwait is a good example of a place where Western values have taken hold. Yeah they're still Muslim and very much so, but as yet, the two factions, or rather denominations, Sunnie and Shi-ite coexist pretty well. There is a pretty large group of exiled Iranians there from the Jimmy Carter days. They love Americans and American values. Also, Kuwait works very hard at keeping the loony Radical Muslims out or at least at bay.

    I believe that Iraq could have been an equally successful venture if we could have kept Obama or one like him out of the presidency. When he got elected I feared the success of Iraq. We had our hard times in Iraq before Obama, true enough. But when Robert Gates took over Rumsfeld's job we quit beating our heads against a brick wall and the Surge calmed the waters. But when Obama took over, he told the world when we would be leaving. And sure enough,just like clock work, the minute we left things began to go South. It took awhile but now you see the fruits of that. The thing is we had already paid the price in lives and all it would have taken was a few years of maintenance. Iraq was headed in the direction that Bush and Cheney and crew had intended. It just wasn't ready to go on its own yet. It may have taken ten more years but it was headed that way. Obama broke its legs before it could walk.

    Now we're going to turn our backs like nothing ever happened and let the hordes overrun Iraq and win in the end. All who have died there are in vane. All the money down the drain. And we are one BIG MAJOR step closer to having the Middle East run soley by the radicals who will dictate oil prices and put our economy in the drink for good.

    Now we're going to let the insurgents win in the end. We're going to put our head in then sand and let 50 million people go back to a world where a dictator rules them. I don't know about the rest of you, but to do that, after we gave them hope, is an unforgivable sin. That is isolationism to a fault. Everytime we see a guy or gal with a stump for a leg we're going to think that it was all for naught. And we can tell all the loved ones who lost a husband, son, or dad, that it was all for naught, that we just shouldn't have gone in the first place. Well many who went believed in the cause. I have two nephews, and a niece, and two sons that served in some military capacity there and risked their lives and they all five, to the person, believed in the cause.

    Anyway, that's my take on it.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,985 Senior Member
    Someone (Talking Head on TV) on the news said Joe Biden may have actually been right when he said Iraq should be divided into three states. I don't know if that's the answer or not, but if it is, would they leave each other alone and live in peace or continue butchering each other until the end of time?
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,803 Senior Member
    Well there are several things going here....

    One- we were greeted as liberators for the about the first 6 months. After that the dissenting Shia forces hiding in Iran came back into the country and the 5% that were the diehards brought AQI into being.

    I am not mad for being sent there, I am mad we didn't stay fulfill the promises we told those folks we would do.

    We created the current situation. As much foreign goveremt manipulation we do, we allow all the dominos to be set up for this right before our eyes. The first was the referendum vote of 2005. That should have failed. It would have shown the sunni's that while they are minority, they still have a voice other than violence. The constitution vote should have been similiar. Both times we alienated the Sunni population. Next we allowed a Shia government to emerge. Not just partly Shia, damn near all Shia. Now this was all well and good as long as we were on the ground supporting the Sunni/Arab spring with initiatives such as the Sons of Iraq. In the northern sections we allowed the Kurds to begin building their empire. Even allowing them to institute their own currency and immigration rules. In 2008 the Shia government was completely infiltrated by Shia special groups like Badr corp and the upper echelon of JAM. Did you notice how they faded away from the news? It is because they gained what they wanted. The moved into the civil ministry and started running water and hospitals.
    So we watched all of this happen. We chased AQI all over Iraq but not in the deep of the anbar Provence. Not along the Syrian border. Then and then we pulled up stakes. No legitimacy for he sons of Iraq, no restraints on the Kurds, and a Shia government with a hand out and open arms to Iran.
    What did we expect to happen? The Sunnis now felt abandoned and cornered. They couldn't turn to AQI. They knew they didn't want that. So the old school ba'athist floating around Anbar put together ISI. Syria allowed it to become ISIL and then later ISIS. And now they are executing all the old Baathist party ideas of creating one Sunni state from Iraq to Syria to Egypt.
    The Kurds are going to begin taking each of the northern cities. Kirkuk was a message. That city has always boasted it has a mixed population, but was in Kurd lands. If ISIS moves any further north or east, the Kurds will jump with both feet. They will not go back to a pre-03 life.
    Iran is he issue that is going to erupt the whole area. Especially of we invite them without KSA or Jordan's permission. You can not bring Persians into an Arab issue with permission... Me and my brother against my cousin, me an
    d my cousin against the world.. Persians are the world.
    We either have to leave this alone or go back in. A one foot in solution is going to exponentially make matters worse.
    I know the cost. But I will go back to make this right if I have to.

    You're right on centermass and as close to my view as I've seen. Of course you would be if I think you're right on, :tooth:

    But seriously, you hit it on the head. Obama let this all go to hell.

    But maybe this will serve the conservative cause well. Now after the fact, maybe, just possibly, some clueless Americans will see that the left is inept in dealing with foreign policy.

    But then again, that's a pipe dream because when they control the media, their propaganda rules and nothing changes.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,554 Senior Member
    I don't agree that the people are blind and backwards - at least not naturally. Islam has done that to them, and is probably all that has kept them from being prosperous and useful to the rest of the world. Of course, our problem is that we don't have the balls, as a nation, to declare a war on Islam. We have to beat around the bush and say it is a religion of peace that has merely been corrupted by evil factions. The point is that all of the major religions have had to reform themselves to the point that they could co-exist with their competitors. Islam has not improved since it's first inception, and the world has put up with it.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,985 Senior Member
    I posted on here years ago I thought the Crusades were a good thing..mini firestorm of replies....but maybe our ancestors knew something the world is afraid to admit these days and were doing us a favor. :popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

    http://www.history.com/topics/crusades
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,554 Senior Member
    We actually had things going our way pretty well when Iran and Iraq were slaughtering each other. Any kind of civil war among the factions of Islam are diverting resources from their aims in the West. Who knows - they might thin each other out enough over time that some more moderate faction could start the process of reforming their medieval religion.

    Here's the thing about our so-called policy in the Middle East that nobody talks about:

    Everything we have done or have not done since Obama took office is pushing Israel to the brink of a nuclear option. They are a tiny nation that has survived by their wits and a little help from their friends for ~60 years. Whether or not you believe we should be helping them, the fact remains that they are a tiny nation surrounded by mortal enemies who make no bones about their desire to annihilate them...and they have nuclear weapons.

    Obama has de-stabilized Egypt by helping oust a government that, vile though it may have been, was bought and paid for by the US (for peanuts, relatively speaking), and would not have threatened Israel. They have done about the same with Libya, and have been trying to do the same with Syria, only pulling up short because of public outcry. Now, they have vacated Iraq and left it to the worst of the radical Islamists, along with who knows what weaponry and technology. They will do the same with Afghanistan, and have already delivered up the Taliban 'brain trust'to re-establish what was there, pre-war. We have given Iran virtually a free rein to keep developing their own nukes, and Pakistan already has nukes and is no longer even pretending to be our allies.

    Criticize Israel all you want for whatever you want, but do not underestimate their resolve and ingenuity. If they should ever be attacked on the same level as they were in the Yom Kippur war, and the US does not re-supply them (as they did in '73) with the airplanes and tanks they need, in their hour of need, they do have contingency plans for a mutual assured destruction. I have no doubt but that they have the capability and determination to take out every major city in the region, if they are about to be overrun. And...it's entirely likely that no one but the US would be able to prevent it - a very interesting scenario, and frightening.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,803 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    I posted on here years ago I thought the Crusades were a good thing..mini firestorm of replies....but maybe our ancestors knew something the world is afraid to admit these days and were doing us a favor. :popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

    http://www.history.com/topics/crusades

    Yes and everywhere there is Islam there are problems. No other Religion has that distinction. Other than the Japanese in WWII, most Buddhist are very peaceful. Same with their cousins, the Hindos. Christians are very peaceful and so are most Jews (if you don't screw with them... LOL!!!). Only Islam causes world wide problems in the name of peace. And that's because they believe they are the only true religion and all the rest of the world should cow tow to their beliefs.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • JeeperJeeper Senior Member Posts: 2,952 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    I don't agree that the people are blind and backwards - at least not naturally. Islam has done that to them, and is probably all that has kept them from being prosperous and useful to the rest of the world. Of course, our problem is that we don't have the balls, as a nation, to declare a war on Islam. We have to beat around the bush and say it is a religion of peace that has merely been corrupted by evil factions. The point is that all of the major religions have had to reform themselves to the point that they could co-exist with their competitors. Islam has not improved since it's first inception, and the world has put up with it.

    :win::win: Yes, but we don't have the balls as a nation to do what is necessary to win a long term war that is not a matter of true national security like WWII. We should have learned that from Korea and Vietnam.

    We would be MUCH better off industrially and economically if we would just keep our noses out of other nations internal issues and trade with everyone that it benefits us to do so.

    Luis
    Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    I'd like to commend those here who commented. Excellent observations! You guys brought out points that I've not seen anywhere else, and have shown just how delicate the situation is, and how complex it is, too.

    Thanks again!

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,985 Senior Member
    One of the best observations/comments from a talking head on TV was that 'If The Islamist would stop the killing, the killing would stop in their regions of the world'.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    Criticize Israel all you want for whatever you want, but do not underestimate their resolve and ingenuity. etc.

    And Israel is the only true democracy in the whole region, plus our only real allies. But Obama has systematically disrupted the rapport we have with Israel. To our eventual peril. This placating idiotic Islamic leaders by the Obama regime has gone way overboard and the consequences of this action will haunt us for the next ten years.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,508 Senior Member
    Sam, I wouldn't call Israel our only true allies in the levant. Remember when de Gaul said nations have interests, not friends? Israel's on ally is survival. Period. And they will do whatever it takes to survive. If they were guaranteed peace for the rest of their time on earth for the lives of 1000 Americans...guess what is going to happen.
    A lot folks discount Jordan. I don't know why. If folks knew the whole story and the military relationship we have with royalty of Jordan, ...especially when it came time to put troops into Iraq in 03.
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • shushshush Senior Member Posts: 6,259 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    Criticize Israel all you want... they have nuclear weapons........... they do have contingency plans for a mutual assured destruction. I have no doubt but that they have the capability and determination to take out every major city in the region, if they are about to be overrun......

    Do you think they could hold off long enough for all the oil to be sucked up, that glow in the dark two star petrol is nasty stuff. :silly::silly:


    ......A lot folks discount Jordan. I don't know why. If folks knew the whole story and the military relationship we have with royalty of Jordan.......

    They go back away with the us Brits also, very good people. :up:

    cjp wrote: »..... Oh dear God, I've admitted to liking something Limey.I'll never hear the end of this.

    Jayhawker wrote: »...But seriously Shush....

    Big Chief wrote: ».........walking around with a greasy butt ain't no fun, though!

     


     

  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 6,243 Senior Member
    I was thinking about Jordan too.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    A lot folks discount Jordan. I don't know why. If folks knew the whole story and the military relationship we have with royalty of Jordan, ...especially when it came time to put troops into Iraq in 03.

    Yes, I did forget Jordan, a true ally of the US. Thanks for the reminder.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • shushshush Senior Member Posts: 6,259 Senior Member
    I always admired how, in 1970, King Hussein's armed forces dealt with the Palestinian 'fedayeen' and Syria.

    With a little help from his friends.

    cjp wrote: »..... Oh dear God, I've admitted to liking something Limey.I'll never hear the end of this.

    Jayhawker wrote: »...But seriously Shush....

    Big Chief wrote: ».........walking around with a greasy butt ain't no fun, though!

     


     

  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,803 Senior Member
    Sam, I wouldn't call Israel our only true allies in the levant. Remember when de Gaul said nations have interests, not friends? Israel's on ally is survival. Period. And they will do whatever it takes to survive. If they were guaranteed peace for the rest of their time on earth for the lives of 1000 Americans...guess what is going to happen.
    A lot folks discount Jordan. I don't know why. If folks knew the whole story and the military relationship we have with royalty of Jordan, ...especially when it came time to put troops into Iraq in 03.

    I agree that Israel is our ally. An Ally doesn't have to be your lover, just someone with a common interest to preserve.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,803 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    Yes, I did forget Jordan, a true ally of the US. Thanks for the reminder.

    Yes but it's been awhile since the days of King Hussein. But King Hussein did give the reins over to Abdullah who has done a good job in moving his country toward even better relations with the West. Of course his mother was English, which you would tend to believe would help.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,803 Senior Member
    I'm sitting here watching the U.S. Open contemplating what I've read on this thread and it hit me like a ton of bricks. It makes no difference what any of us think whether we thought it could have succeded or failed. It's in the stars, the gears are in motion and they have been since the 2008 elections. There was no way Iraq would have beeen allowed to stand with a democratic administration in control. It won't happen. Because it was Bush's brain child and the Dummycraps have done everything including treason to derail the whole thing since day one.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
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