My Musings on the Fall of Iraq

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  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,509 Senior Member
    The Kurdish SOF have been making hits in the city of Kirkuk. I saw those guys do some training. It was hard to tell they weren't us.

    If we go in or do anything, it has to be in for penny, in for a pound. A half solution will only make things worse.
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,375 Senior Member
    If we go in or do anything, it has to be in for penny, in for a pound. A half solution will only make things worse.

    For the record, I was not against our first two incursions into Iraq....BUT...We should have done the job right the first time....and the second time....is there any hope of doing it right a THIRD time? With this buffoon as CINC? Not bloody likely....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,433 Senior Member
    Talking to a friend at work who is from Lebanon, his take is until they get an education system and some form of freedom, things won't change. They have lived to long under the thumb of dictators or religious zealots with only tastes of freedom to even know how to revolt and fix the system. He fears it will take a long time. Also to many splinter groups within shia and sunni to ever get along. They have been fighting for 1400 yrs, since the prophet Mohamed died and they could not agree who should take control.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • JeeperJeeper Senior Member Posts: 2,952 Senior Member
    horselips wrote: »
    Your analysis is a monument to liberal thinking. The Left looks at people through the prism of race - everybody is either white, Hispanic, black, Asian, or whatever, and naturally each (except white) has been graciously provided with a generous suite of persecutions and discriminations in an effort to make them all victims. Ethnicities in need are voters indeed, and to the rescue is liberal largess, offering sanctuary and entitlements in exchange for self-reliance, freedom and prosperity. So nobody's feelings got hurt, liberalism proclaimed the doctrines of multiculturalism and worse, cultural equivalence, and then concocted political correctness, which serves to protect these subcultures from richly deserved criticism. Validation and encouragement of less successful, and even failed and barbarous cultures takes precedence over assimilation and even peaceful coexistence. Liberals don't need no stinkin' "E Pluribus Unum!" E Pluribus Pluribus is the plan, because it works at the ballot box. Liberals don't see people as personally accountable individuals, after all, that's a Judeo-Christian concept, they just see groups.

    And so it is with the Middle East. The excuse liberals offer for all the violence and unrest is that the imperial powers drew the borders of new nations carved out of the ashes of the Ottoman Empire without consideration for tribes, clans, sects and so forth. I call deja moo - we've heard that bull before. The French and the English live together peaceably in Canada, The Welsh, the Scots and the English get along in the UK. The Catholics and Protestants co-exist in Ireland. The Russian Empire embraced a dozen nationalities, and as many religions and sects, and they enjoyed internal peace for centuries under the Romanov "Tsars of all the Russias." The Hapsburgs pulled it off with the Austrians, Hungarians, Poles, Slavs, Ruthenians, Czechs, Slovaks, and so forth, keeping the lid on "Middle Europa" for centuries. The Pax Romana gave almost 200 years of peace and prosperity to the 143 nationalities of the Roman Empire, amounting to one-fourth of the world's total population. Yes, that was then, but today we have the example of the U.S.A., where people from throughout the known Universe manage to get along - regardless of ethnicity and religion, despite the efforts of the Left to arouse and divide.

    Well meaning people of good intentions are obligated to learn from history, and to try very, very hard not to repeat anyone's mistakes of the past. They're supposed to take the examples of more successful cultures and institutions and use them to their own benefit. To excuse their failure to do so by justifying and validating the hide-bound traditions, racial bigotry, religious hatred, and petty jealousies of assorted tribes, clans, and groups as "historical" just encourages them to continue failing. When Shiite and Sunni oppress each other, when Muslims hate Jews and Christians, when Persians and Arabs loathe one another, within and without their borders, just amounts to proof that these people are not qualified for self-government. Silence is acceptance. Racial bigotry, religious hatred, cruel traditions, and discrimination of every kind must be rejected out of hand, lest these excuses preclude holding each and every person in the Middle East individually accountable for every single one of their actions. Even if nations can't get along, there's no legitimate excuse for various peoples within nations not to do so. All it takes is common sense, maturity, empathy, tolerance and good intentions - the essential qualifications for self-government.

    The Middle East is a basket case because the cultures there are backward, obsolete, immature, unsophisticated, inferior, and otherwise failed. They slaughter each other because it's who and what they are. They're almost as bad as Europeans, who even though they have correctly divided themselves along recognizable ethnic, religious and geographic lines, satisfying those liberal priorities, still went trotting off after every hair-brained ideology that came along, and managed to burn their continent to the ground every other generation or so until widespread American occupation after WW2 brought reason and sensibility to soothe the savage breast. Are Europeans qualified yet for self-government? Some yes, some no.

    Bottom line is I cut the Muslims no slack, and allow them no excuses. I reject blaming their actions on the British, the French, the Ottomans, the Israelis, or anybody else. In fact, when the Middle East and Mesopotamia were occupied and colonized, they lived more peacefully than they do now. The truth is they terrorize, hurt, destroy and kill each other. and everybody else within reach, because, and only because they're easily led and don't know any better. Xenophon was right - they really are barbarians.

    YES! YES, YES, YES! They are a solid 1500 years in the past culturally. Until they are overrun and absorbed by a more sophisticated culture there will be only endless violence. Wall them off from the rest of society and if/when they ever evolve, then allow them to become an active member of the rest of the modern world.

    Luis
    Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
  • JeeperJeeper Senior Member Posts: 2,952 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    When you boil it all down to it's essence, we have a world that is in just as much conflict as it ever was. Thanks to the industrial revolution, the power has shifted from the nations with the most good swordsmen to the ones with the most good guns. Thankfully, that allows those with mostly brains and fortitude to overwhelm those with mostly muscle and fortitude.

    When it's all said and done, the people that populate this planet will continue to fight over its resources till a meteor obliterates it or the sun becomes one of those cool supernovas. That being the case, the best course for any country is to keep making good guns so they can enjoy themselves without having to expend quite so much energy fending off barbarians.

    "Let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we shall die." :silly:

    Agreed!

    Luis
    Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,248 Senior Member
    If we go in or do anything, it has to be in for penny, in for a pound. A half solution will only make things worse.

    Agreed, the problem is big ears had us walk away too soon. For anything to change is going to be a long term investment. Like close to the next century, long term investment.
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,364 Senior Member
    Any way you cut it, this new development in Iraq is a religious war for power. One sect fighting to oust another sect out of the government. It reminds me a lot of a bunch of three year old kids in a sandbox that can't play with one another for five minutes without a fight breaking out. Difference is that in Iraq, lots of people are being killed for belonging to the wrong sect, or worse yet, Christians. Iran is backing the sect not in power. How about we just protect the Kurds and use tactical nukes on any interlopers that try to attack them? At this point, the Kurds are the only ones worth protecting, and we don't need to abandon them.............again, IMO.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 4,955 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    Any way you cut it, this new development in Iraq is a religious war for power. One sect fighting to oust another sect out of the government. It reminds me a lot of a bunch of three year old kids in a sandbox that can't play with one another for five minutes without a fight breaking out. Difference is that in Iraq, lots of people are being killed for belonging to the wrong sect, or worse yet, Christians. Iran is backing the sect not in power. How about we just protect the Kurds and use tactical nukes on any interlopers that try to attack them? At this point, the Kurds are the only ones worth protecting, and we don't need to abandon them.............again, IMO.

    How about we don't even worry about the Kurds and just let them all fight it out on their own? We could then concentrate on protecting our own borders and embassies. As I hear it, our Border Patrol Service is being over-run by Mexican babies, to the point that BPS agents are having to change diapers.

    What have we, as a nation, become?

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 6,244 Senior Member
    http://link.tapatalk.com/api/click?key=a7e5ffb24b9e84f4f4f6bbd88aa4e5b8&out=https%3A%2F%2Fmedium.com%2Fwar-is-boring%2Fwow-iraqs-military-is-sad-1609cdf7a87&subId=5af545e99254638ce9829ea2329f72d4

    The tide may be turning in Iraq. SOF and volunteer militia digging in their heels.

    Good read about the operations and tactics in Iraq's military. They need more training but seems like they could be formidable.

    The pic of the SOF looks like Americans. Definitely see our influence in their gear and pose.
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 6,244 Senior Member
    Agreed, the problem is big ears had us walk away too soon. For anything to change is going to be a long term investment. Like close to the next century, long term investment.
    Didn't Maliki not agree to a key condition of our troops staying? I think I read that Obama asked for immunity for our troops but Maliki refused.

    Edit: Found it. I thought so. Maliki scuttled that deal. This one isn't on Obama, I don't think.

    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/66615.html
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    Think again- - - - - -Odumbutt put impossible conditions on the SOFA agreement- - - -he insisted on the entire Iraq parlaiment signing off on it, not just Maliki. That's never been done before.
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
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