Knockdown power, firearms lubricity, and other bunk

breamfisherbreamfisher Senior MemberPosts: 13,104 Senior Member
I know someone who just attended a CCW course, and they were telling me some of the nuggets of wisdom they've heard from that and from handgun shopping for a new carry gun...

1. Larger bullets = more knockdown power. The .45 ACP is the king of all of it, as it's the biggest bullet one can carry reasonably.
2. Polymer pistols need less to no lube as they're "self-lubricating."
3. You handgun mag should contain JHP and FMJ bullets, alternating, in case you have to stop a car and need to shoot the engine block. Likewise your shotgun mag should contain alternating slugs and buckshot for the same reason.
4. 9mm are puny junk.
5. .40 S&W are junk. (told at a different place.)
6. The XD is a cheap, low-quality imitation of the Glock. With the exception of the XDs.
7. If you carry a spare mag, make it as high of capacity as needed, and carry two. Because if you need a spare mag in a CCW gunfight, you're going to be in it for the long haul.
Edited to add:
8. An unloaded pump shotgun may be the best defensive tool out there, as the mere sound of it being racked will send most mortal running.

All in all, seems like this person's gotten some info that's either wrong, based on outdated thinking, or that's been prejudiced by the relayer's perspectives in military or LE circles. Sad that some of this stuff still exists. Sadder still folks pay money and get this sort of information.
Overkill is underrated.
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Replies

  • MississippiBoyMississippiBoy Senior Member Posts: 819 Senior Member
    Did they also say that a shotgun will blow a man clean out of his shoes, and that you don't have to aim it?
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,248 Senior Member
    The 1911 guys are the epitome of arrogance. Not all of them, or even most of them, but the ones who read a lot of gun magazines and carry a dozen magazines to the mall.

    I don't know about all polymer guns, but it's easy to over-lube a Glock. As I recall from Glock school, five drops of oil is all you need. The only 'self-lubing' gun I know of is the Nylon 66.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 23,968 Senior Member
    It is all true except if your shooting .40 in a 10mm.
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
  • JKPJKP Senior Member Posts: 1,837 Senior Member
    Don't forget that racking a round into a shotgun will freeze your enemy and cause uncontrolled sobs of fear.
  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,467 Senior Member
    It is very frustrating to me when I talk to friends here who don't know anything about guns but are interested in starting. They usually will have one of those nuggets firmly entrenched on their brain and the first thing I have to do is tell them that what they thought they knew was wrong. It's even worse when they've heard it from someone they trust; now I have to prove it, but their reluctant to allow me that opportunity. So rather than turn them off, I offer them this forum, some of my more truthful magazine articles, or a range session with me to help them understand what's real and what isn't. Sometimes that works.
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    Well at least they got #6 right.:popcorn:
    It's because I hate Trump.
  • Mrs_ChiefMrs_Chief Member Posts: 292 Member
    No matter what training or school you have attended/graduated from....you gotta have the balls to actually shoot when you need to or you may as well leave yer pistola at home for paper- weight duty!

    Training can prepare you for a myriad of scenarios and most folks are better off having been trained and ran through drills. However, it is not the end all some are lead to believe where you will automatically win and survive a confrontation.

    The stuff referenced sounds like LGS or range idle chitchat or someone talking smack after too many beers.

    “Believe only half of what you see and nothing that you hear.” ― Edgar Allan Poe

    BC
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,104 Senior Member
    JKP wrote: »
    Don't forget that racking a round into a shotgun will freeze your enemy and cause uncontrolled sobs of fear.
    Oh, I forgot. They said that, too....
    Overkill is underrated.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    A couple of these contain nuggets of truth, but mostly bunk.

    1- I've never understood "knockdown" power. When I was first learning about guns I of course thought that the larger the caliber, the better the impact. Or something like that. I suppose it's partly true, especially for very small calibers, such as a .22 or .380 or an old .38 short. But for other calibers, such as 9mm, .40, .45, etc., it's mostly shot placement plus some luck.

    2- My factory lube instructions for metal and polymer pistols are pretty much the same. Don't over-lube but you gotta lube specific places, metal or polymer, because even w. polymer, duh, the mechanical parts are, surprise, metal.

    3- Idiotic, total fantasy.

    4/5 - Again, fantasy. I'm not a 9mm fan but they are indeed a good defensive caliber. .40 is just fine, buy hey, why not .45 instead?

    6- I'm one of those who likes both polymer frames and metal, just because of the variety. There is simply zero real evidence that polymer pistols are less reliable or less durable than metal. And of course I'm talking about GOOD quality brands, not junk regardless of the frame material. My XD Tactical .45 is a terrific pistol, accurate, very reliable, and works great after thousands of rounds. It's my go-to defensive weapon for home defense. Plus my Springfield 1911. And I've also got a Glock 30, and like it too.

    7- I've tried those hi-cap mags and they, for me, are too awkward to manage. If it floats your boat, fine. But the concept of needing lots of ammo for an extended self defense situation? I personally doubt that much more than 6-7 shots are normally ever needed, and during the time you reload, you're gonna be vulnerable anyway. I doubt that the size of 2nd magazine will ever be a factor. But others here may have stories that conflict that premise and I'm always happy to learn new stuff.

    Incidentally, I've never been taught ANY of those 7 items in any of the self defense classes I've taken nor read this in any books on the subject.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • jaywaptijaywapti Senior Member Posts: 4,526 Senior Member
    bobbyrlf3 wrote: »
    It is very frustrating to me when I talk to friends here who don't know anything about guns but are interested in starting. They usually will have one of those nuggets firmly entrenched on their brain and the first thing I have to do is tell them that what they thought they knew was wrong. It's even worse when they've heard it from someone they trust; now I have to prove it, but their reluctant to allow me that opportunity. So rather than turn them off, I offer them this forum, some of my more truthful magazine articles, or a range session with me to help them understand what's real and what isn't. Sometimes that works.

    A lot of this B.S. got started after the infamous F.B.I. shootout in S. Miami, after which they went from the 9mm to the 40 S&W. When some of my customers would ask about the low powered cartridges ( .380, .38 & 9mm ) I would invite them to shoot watermelons in the back yard, It left no doubt in there minds that a well placed shot would usually do the job. Although I prefer the .44spc & .45acp, not everyone can handle them, so for them a smaller caliber is better than nothing.

    JAY
    THE DEFINITION OF GUN CONTROL IS HITTING THE TARGET WITH YOUR FIRST SHOT
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,061 Senior Member
    JKP wrote: »
    Don't forget that racking a round into a shotgun will freeze your enemy and cause uncontrolled sobs of fear.
    ...and pooping...mustn't forget terror-induced pooping...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,248 Senior Member
    jaywapti wrote: »
    A lot of this B.S. got started after the infamous F.B.I. shootout in S. Miami, after which they went from the 9mm to the 40 S&W. When some of my customers would ask about the low powered cartridges ( .380, .38 & 9mm ) I would invite them to shoot watermelons in the back yard, It left no doubt in there minds that a well placed shot would usually do the job. Although I prefer the .44spc & .45acp, not everyone can handle them, so for them a smaller caliber is better than nothing.

    JAY

    Most of the good guys were armed with .38 Spec +P. The FBI went briefly to the 10mm, then found their agents had problems qualifying with them, and then went to the .40. A shotgun from an agent won the day. Bad guys were armed with Ruger .223 Mini-14s.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,246 Senior Member
    "Just get a double barrel shotgun....."
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,248 Senior Member
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • TrueTone911TrueTone911 Senior Member Posts: 6,045 Senior Member
    bobbyrlf3 wrote: »
    It is very frustrating to me when I talk to friends here who don't know anything about guns but are interested in starting. They usually will have one of those nuggets firmly entrenched on their brain and the first thing I have to do is tell them that what they thought they knew was wrong.

    I avoided this by coming here first. :up:
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,061 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    Most of the good guys were armed with .38 Spec +P. The FBI went briefly to the 10mm, then found their agents had problems qualifying with them, and then went to the .40. A shotgun from an agent won the day. Bad guys were armed with Ruger .223 Mini-14s.

    The was A (1) mini-14 on the scene...
    Matix had a S&W Model 3000 12 gauge loaded with #6 birdshot
    Platt had a Mini-14 from which he fired 42 rounds and 2 .357 Magnum revolvers
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,467 Senior Member
    I avoided this by coming here first. :up:

    I came late to the party, but I'm glad I showed up. :beer:
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,046 Senior Member
    Two I used to hear a lot:
    Short barrels are not accurate (specialty pistols chambered in bottleneck cartridges) as accurate as rifles, since they have an inefficient case capacity for the barrel length.
    Don't even get me started that they can't shoot @ distance accurately:deadhorse::tooth:
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 2,184 Senior Member
    I know someone who just attended a CCW course, and they were telling me some of the nuggets of wisdom they've heard from that and from handgun shopping for a new carry gun...

    1. Larger bullets = more knockdown power. The .45 ACP is the king of all of it, as it's the biggest bullet one can carry reasonably.2. Polymer pistols need less to no lube as they're "self-lubricating."
    3. You handgun mag should contain JHP and FMJ bullets, alternating, in case you have to stop a car and need to shoot the engine block. Likewise your shotgun mag should contain alternating slugs and buckshot for the same reason.
    4. 9mm are puny junk.
    5. .40 S&W are junk. (told at a different place.)
    6. The XD is a cheap, low-quality imitation of the Glock. With the exception of the XDs.
    7. If you carry a spare mag, make it as high of capacity as needed, and carry two. Because if you need a spare mag in a CCW gunfight, you're going to be in it for the long haul.
    Edited to add:
    8. An unloaded pump shotgun may be the best defensive tool out there, as the mere sound of it being racked will send most mortal running.

    All in all, seems like this person's gotten some info that's either wrong, based on outdated thinking, or that's been prejudiced by the relayer's perspectives in military or LE circles. Sad that some of this stuff still exists. Sadder still folks pay money and get this sort of information.

    Of all the misconceptions on your list, my favorite is the first one. First off, what the heck is knockdown power anyway?

    According to Larry Potterfield it's something like "...the ability to knock down an assailant with one well-placed shot."

    Well, if the shot is well-placed (not just well-directed) does caliber really become that much of an issue?

    The second issue is the idea of "Larger bullets = more knockdown power", getting away from the fact that knockdown power is vaguely defined, there's the notion that because a bullet is larger it's better. The one thing folks have a difficult time understanding is the idea that the bullet does the "work" so bullet design plays a very important role.

    Next, is the fast and loose association some folks make with bullet size and momentum and equating that to the vaguely defined knockdown power

    Lets face it, bad guys aren't clones and each encounter is different. There are no guarantees.... so shootin off at the mouth like you know your "facts for certain", is not a good idea.

    jmho
    Beware of false knowledge -- it is often more dangerous than ignorance.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,248 Senior Member
    A better term would be "stopping power." No hand-held weapon has knock down power, as it would knock down the shooter.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,104 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    A better term would be "stopping power." No hand-held weapon has knock down power, as it would knock down the shooter.
    I agree, but I'm not even sure that "stopping power" is that great of a term when we're talking handguns. Maybe "stopping potential" is better. Not as marketable, however.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,620 Senior Member
    Terminal Performance
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,657 Senior Member
    Gee, I thought the .44 magnum was the most powerful handgun in the world. It will, after all, blow your head clean off.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,248 Senior Member
    I know what you're asking yourself. Did I fire five rounds, or six? Well, how about it, punk.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,605 Senior Member
    Do ya feel lucky, punk?

    Common sense would tell you that a larger projectile would have more ""stopping power" all other factors being equal. Which they never are. Its picking nits - seems to me most calibers will get the job done in the vast majority of situations.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    zorba wrote: »
    Do ya feel lucky, punk?

    Common sense would tell you that a larger projectile would have more ""stopping power" all other factors being equal. Which they never are. Its picking nits - seems to me most calibers will get the job done in the vast majority of situations.

    Just off the top of my brain-scattered head, with zero stats to back it up, I'd guesstimate that "stopping" is about 10% caliber, 90% shot placement, assuming that the caliber is mid-size or larger, like 9mm or greater.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,605 Senior Member
    That sounds about right to me, with some percentage thrown in for bullet weight/type and powder charge. Add another minor percentage for barrel length/configuration. But you're right, the bulk of it is shot placement, otherwise no-one would ever manage to kill anything with a .22 (or .270 :tooth:).
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • TrueTone911TrueTone911 Senior Member Posts: 6,045 Senior Member
    Rambo could take down anything with a .270 and he don't even need a gun.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,605 Senior Member
    Rambo could take down anything with a .270 and he don't even need ammo.

    FIFY.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 8,669 Senior Member
    Of course he dosn't need ammo, everyone knows the best use for a .270 is as a club.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
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