Knockdown power, firearms lubricity, and other bunk

2

Replies

  • 5280 shooter II5280 shooter II Senior Member Posts: 3,923 Senior Member
    Or as a pointy stabby thing. When I think of caliber and all the equations of foot pound of energy...trans-kinetic shock waves.....penetration depth...blah blah blah........I'm reminded that an ice pick or an arrow is just as effective.
    God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 7,038 Senior Member
    One of my favorites:

    "The .308 Winchester has far more power and range capability than the .30-06"

    That one never fails to make me giggle.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,246 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    One of my favorites:

    "The .308 Winchester has far more power and range capability than the .30-06"

    That one never fails to make me giggle.

    I have heard that one lots of times.
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,231 Senior Member
    I have heard that one lots of times.

    I've never heard that, personally. Don't know the origin of such nonsense.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Diver43 wrote: »
    Of course he dosn't need ammo, everyone knows the best use for a .270 is as a club.

    Of course the subject of this thread is humor and sarcasm, but will someone please explain to me the vehemence against the .270? Way I see it, the .270 is simply a light caliber rifle that's mostly okay for small game or just plinking. Why the derision? Because I don't really see anything inherently "wrong" with the .270, just so long as it's not mistaken for a long range or high power rifle caliber. I've shot .270s and they are an okay round, nothing to turn handsprings over, but not bad either.

    I mean, years ago when I hunted deer, I carried a very lightweight Ruger .243 carbine. Now, in the brushy and close-range hunting areas where I went (western/central Missouri) you really don't find large deer nor do you usually have the wide open prairie where longer ranges or larger deer calibers are needed. My little .243 brought down deer quite nicely, thank you.

    So what's the gripe about the .270? If used for its intended purpose (smaller game, closer distance) it's okay. Is it because there's a bunch of pro-.270 fans who claim it's the baddest and best and therefore look silly?

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,611 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    Way I see it, the .270 is simply a light caliber rifle that's mostly okay for small game or just plinking. Why the derision? Because I don't really see anything inherently "wrong" with the .270, just so long as it's not mistaken for a long range or high power rifle caliber.

    So what's the gripe about the .270? If used for its intended purpose (smaller game, closer distance) it's okay.


    Spot on, Sam!



    Ha!!

    :-)
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • gatorgator Senior Member Posts: 1,689 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    just so long as it's not mistaken for a long range or high power rifle caliber.


    :uhm:
    USMC 80-84
    -96 lbs
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 7,038 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    I've never heard that, personally. Don't know the origin of such nonsense.

    The story probably goes something like this:

    At the request of Uncle Sam, Winchester creates new powders and a new cartridge that can duplicate the performance of the Garand-friendly, 150 grain M2 ball load in a 12mm shorter package.

    Springfield Armory and John Garand tweak the M1 so the fragile, pressure-sensitive operating rod is gone and adjust it to take the new round in a 20-round box.

    Uncle Sam and NATO adopt the new round and a whole mess of rifles and machineguns to shoot it with.

    The fledgling sniper community in Vietnam looks at the .308 and says "Well, on the one hand, it's long-range, heavy-bullet ballistics kinda suck compared with the .30-06 we've been using, but on the other hand the crap seems to be everywhere and the spotter's M14's can shoot it. I guess we'd better bite the weenie, make the switch, and get good at calling in artillery and air to deal with the far-out stuff."

    Some mall ninja without these facts thinks "The stony-eyed, snake-eating snipers switched from .30-06 to .308, ergo, the .308 MUST be better!" GENIUSES, I TELL YOU! :bang:
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,231 Senior Member
    The operating rod is still there in an M 14. Maybe it's a little beefier, I don't know.

    The advantages I see in the .308 is it can be lighter, and within a military range (i.e. 150 grain bullets) it's a bit more efficient, for what that's worth. Although I doubt the M 14 was much lighter than an M 1. Ammo is a bit lighter and easier to store, but not a whole lot.

    The 30-06 can be a lot more powerful, which isn't a big issue within the narrow parameters of military loads. My preference leans toward the .308 because that's what they had when I first went in the army. I have one of each.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • Pelagic KayakerPelagic Kayaker Banned Posts: 1,503 Senior Member
    Not one to keep an unloaded 870 around, however, #8 worked for me years back.
    "The reflection upon my situation and that of this army produces many an uneasy hour when all around me are wrapped in sleep. Few people know the predicament we are in" ~General George Washington, January 14, 1776
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    gator wrote: »
    :uhm:

    So, for those of us unable to decipher pictograms, please explain in English words what you find odd about what I said. Thanks.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Spot on, Sam!

    :-)

    In truth, I really do not know what the forum-wide dissing of the .270 is based on. I was just guessing in my post but I really don't know, honest. Someone please 'splain in real English words to me? Again, thanks.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,611 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    In truth, I really do not know what the forum-wide dissing of the .270 is based on. I was just guessing in my post but I really don't know, honest. Someone please 'splain in real English words to me? Again, thanks.

    You inadvertently perpetuated the dissing of the .270 Winchester by the ignorance of your statement regarding the usefulness of the .270 Winchester.

    That, in itself............is ironically beautiful. Classic even. Wonderfully brilliant in a nescience sort of way.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • gatorgator Senior Member Posts: 1,689 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    So, for those of us unable to decipher pictograms, please explain in English words what you find odd about what I said. Thanks.

    "just so long as it's not mistaken for a long range or high power rifle caliber"..........."mostly good for small game and plinking"......

    Sam, folks kill elk, bear, moose... every season with the .270. While it may not be a favorite of some here on the forum it is indeed a HIGH POWERED cartridge capable of shooting long distance.

    So in English........I was confused as to how someone who is always scolding people for not having documented facts about what they post here could be so wrong.
    USMC 80-84
    -96 lbs
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,231 Senior Member
    It's a joke, Sam, a conceit. Or a board meme. That is, if you really do not understand it. Fine cartridge for just about any game in the U.S.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • gatorgator Senior Member Posts: 1,689 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    You inadvertently perpetuated the dissing of the .270 Winchester by the ignorance of your statement regarding the usefulness of the .270 Winchester.

    That, in itself............is ironically beautiful. Classic even. Wonderfully brilliant in a nescience sort of way.

    Sam Zee explained exactly what....:uhm:.....meant
    USMC 80-84
    -96 lbs
  • LMLarsenLMLarsen Senior Member Posts: 8,337 Senior Member
    Indeed. Sam, this means that I agree with gator's assessment of Zee's post, and with Zee's post itself.
    “A gun is a tool, no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that.”

    NRA Endowment Member
  • jaywaptijaywapti Senior Member Posts: 4,520 Senior Member
    the only thing lacking for the .270 is there are no really good long range, heavy for caliber bullets, like the A-MAX, Matchking, Berger, etc. Since most of my rifles are for hunting, and all will hold 1" 5 shot groups at 100yds. ( off the bench ) I can see no difference in killing power on deer, elk, etc. At my hunting ranges of 300yds or less.

    JAY
    THE DEFINITION OF GUN CONTROL IS HITTING THE TARGET WITH YOUR FIRST SHOT
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,412 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    So, for those of us unable to decipher pictograms- - - - - - -etc.

    Foghorn-Leghorn-Thats-a-joke-son-You-missed-it-Flew-right-by-ya.jpg

    No pictograms- - - - -just plain English!
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • jbohiojbohio Senior Member Posts: 5,508 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    Of course the subject of this thread is humor and sarcasm, but will someone please explain to me the vehemence against the .270? Way I see it, the .270 is simply a light caliber rifle that's mostly okay for small game or just plinking. Why the derision? Because I don't really see anything inherently "wrong" with the .270, just so long as it's not mistaken for a long range or high power rifle caliber. I've shot .270s and they are an okay round, nothing to turn handsprings over, but not bad either.

    I mean, years ago when I hunted deer, I carried a very lightweight Ruger .243 carbine. Now, in the brushy and close-range hunting areas where I went (western/central Missouri) you really don't find large deer nor do you usually have the wide open prairie where longer ranges or larger deer calibers are needed. My little .243 brought down deer quite nicely, thank you.

    So what's the gripe about the .270? If used for its intended purpose (smaller game, closer distance) it's okay. Is it because there's a bunch of pro-.270 fans who claim it's the baddest and best and therefore look silly?

    Yep. Good for squirrels and such. Overgrown BB gun, really.
  • TrueTone911TrueTone911 Senior Member Posts: 6,045 Senior Member
    Being that I do not hunt or own ANY rifles for that matter, I had to google "why the .270 gets no respect" and found this...

    http://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/guns/rifles/2007/09/270-mystery
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,528 Senior Member
    gator wrote: »
    Sam, folks kill elk, bear, moose... every season with the .270. While it may not be a favorite of some here on the forum it is indeed a HIGH POWERED cartridge capable of shooting long distance.
    No it tisn't. That is just folks dreaming about how they will be able to hunt when they grow up.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • 5280 shooter II5280 shooter II Senior Member Posts: 3,923 Senior Member
    Sam Waas......it's all just play on the old Keith/O'Connor argument...that's all.
    God show's mercy on drunks and dumb animals.........two outa three ain't a bad score!
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,578 Senior Member
    Sam, here's the resultant thread from when I was asking similar questions:

    http://forums.gunsandammo.com/showthread.php?15644-So-What-s-wrong-with-a-270
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 7,038 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    In truth, I really do not know what the forum-wide dissing of the .270 is based on. I was just guessing in my post but I really don't know, honest. Someone please 'splain in real English words to me? Again, thanks.

    In the beginning, there was the 7x57 Mauser, a lot of good 7mm bullets in various weights and point configurations, and life was good - unless you were one of Teddy Roosevelt's Rough Riders or an elephant in Walter Bell's sights.

    Then there came the .30-06 with bigger case capacity and bigger bullets, and life was good.

    Then there came the notion of necking down the latter to achieve higher velocities and flatter trajectories.

    At this point, someone in the R&D department at Winchester discovered the wonders of Cannabis Sativa, and necked the .30-06 down to not the obvious, established, and much varied 7mm, but rather the oddball .277 for which only narrow ranges of bullets exist even to this day.

    The obvious re-necking of the .30-06 had to wait another quarter century for Remington to make official.

    In real English words: It was just a dumb idea.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,101 Senior Member
    zorba wrote: »
    Sam, here's the resultant thread from when I was asking similar questions:

    http://forums.gunsandammo.com/showthread.php?15644-So-What-s-wrong-with-a-270
    Sam's asked the same question at least once before....
    Overkill is underrated.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,106 Senior Member
    Being that I do not hunt or own ANY rifles for that matter, I had to google "why the .270 gets no respect" and found this...

    http://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/guns/rifles/2007/09/270-mystery

    That article explains it pretty well. Not allowed in service rifle matches, suffered, and still suffers, from lack of availability of match grade bullets, and really is an odd sized bullet. I'm guessing that when it was designed, the metric 7mm was dissed due to it being European in nature. The .32 cal. suffers much the same fate being 8mm. The metric calibers didn't really catch any wind in their sails until the 7mm Magnum came into being. And the 8mm Mag. is still a red headed step child. 'Mericans just don't seem to warm up to the metrics all that much.

    Like I've said before, the .270 is a .30-06 that was picked before it was ripe. It couldn't grow in the shade cast by the .30-06 for all those years. Nothing at all wrong with the .270 for hunting; it just never made a splash in competition. So it gets made fun of for no other reason than to tweak a nose or three in a tongue in cheek sort of way. Nothing malicious; it just is what it is.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • TrueTone911TrueTone911 Senior Member Posts: 6,045 Senior Member
    "The flat-shooting .270 reduces much of the guesswork associated with shots at often unknown distances and puts the bullet on target with a potent package of energy."

    "Sort of makes you want to treat me with more respect, doesn't it?"
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,412 Senior Member
    Several of my .30-06's outshoot the .270 velocity-wise with the same weight bullets. I've got one .270 that I picked up from the bargain rack at the LGS. I keep it around to use as a loaner, at least until I need the action to build something more interesting.
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,851 Senior Member
    7
    I know someone who just attended a CCW course, and they were telling me some of the nuggets of wisdom they've heard from that and from handgun shoping for a new carry gun...

    1. Larger bullets = more knockdown power. The .45 ACP is the king of all of it, as it's the biggest bullet one can carry reasonably.
    2. Polymer pistols need less to no lube as they're "self-lubricating."
    3. You handgun mag should contain JHP and FMJ bullets, alternating, in case you have to stop a car and need to shoot the engine block. Likewise your shotgun mag should contain alternating slugs and buckshot for the same reason.
    4. 9mm are puny junk.
    5. .40 S&W are junk. (told at a different place.)
    6. The XD is a cheap, low-quality imitation of the Glock. With the exception of the XDs.
    7. If you carry a spare mag, make it as high of capacity as needed, and carry two. Because if you need a spare mag in a CCW gunfight, you're going to be in it for the long haul.
    Edited to add:
    8. An unloaded pump shotgun may be the best defensive tool out there, as the mere sound of it being racked will send most mortal running.

    All in all, seems like this person's gotten some info that's either wrong, based on outdated thinking, or that's been prejudiced by the relayer's perspectives in military or LE circles. Sad that some of this stuff still exists. Sadder still folks pay money and get this sort of information.



    I wouldn't say it's all bunk, but I would say that none of this is gospel either.

    1. Yeah, if a big bullet has enough powder behind it, it's going to have a lot of knockdown power. But a hot 9mm or a hot 40 with a bullet of substantial weight is going to have more umpf than say a 45 with a 235 grain bullet at 900 FPS.

    2. I don't own a polymer pistol yet so no comment.

    3. As for how you load your magazine, I guess it depends on the last article you read on the subject. I've read at least 5 different articles with different opinions, so take your pick. Myself, I want some good expanding bullets of medium to heaviest load for cartridge. Hitting an engine block and knocking out the engine was a hotly debated subject when I was in high school. But I wouldn't want to bet my life on stopping a vehicle like that. It might all depend on the engine block and what vehicle that engine block was sitting in.

    4. A 9mm ain't no full house 45 that's for sure, but it's certainly not anemic either. It's what I carry most of the time and I feel confident enough that it will stop an attacker that it is my choice of carry weapons. I'm curious if this opinion was derived from experience or from here say or some writer's misguided opinion?

    5. As for the 40 cal. I would say if a 9 is good a 40 is probably better.

    6.As for the XD, here we go with opinion again.

    7. I admit I like high capacity mags. But for the reason listed? Not so much. Most gun fights are over before they get going good. And if you have multiple mags or speedloaders you shouldn't be at any disadvantage, especially if you practice with your firearm and are proficient at reloading it. Another thing, it takes longer to reload a higher capacity mag, so I'm not sure if that's an advantage.

    8. And as for the sound of a pump shotgun, Hello Joe Biden! What if your intruder is deaf? Actually, I do believe this one to be a wive's tail. And if I'm a bad guy, When I hear that noise I'll know just where to shoot. But whether there's substance to this old saying, one thing I never want to be in a gun fight is out of ammo, or in other words have an empty mag and/or chamber. Yeah, maybe that noise might bluff some bad guys, but I wouldn't want to bet my life on it. It's nice to have ammo in the gun no matter what your tactics.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
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