Knockdown power, firearms lubricity, and other bunk

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Replies

  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    You inadvertently perpetuated the dissing of the .270 Winchester by the ignorance of your statement regarding the usefulness of the .270 Winchester.

    That, in itself............is ironically beautiful. Classic even. Wonderfully brilliant in a nescience sort of way.

    Thanks, I think. For what, I'm apparently not cognizant of.

    As I SAID, I really do NOT know why the .270 is joked about here and was just speculating. For some reason when I ask a question it's derided. Anybody else asks, the question is simply answered.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    gator wrote: »
    "just so long as it's not mistaken for a long range or high power rifle caliber"..........."mostly good for small game and plinking"......

    Sam, folks kill elk, bear, moose... every season with the .270. While it may not be a favorite of some here on the forum it is indeed a HIGH POWERED cartridge capable of shooting long distance.

    So in English........I was confused as to how someone who is always scolding people for not having documented facts about what they post here could be so wrong.

    I'm wrong because I simply do not know. I have often admitted that my knowledge of guns is mostly handguns and usually pistols and canted toward self defense. So my knowledge of rifles is woeful and I have OFTEN admitted such.

    As I SAID, I was just guessing about the .270 being too light. That seems to be what everyone else says -- they even have siglines about it. So what do I know? Not a helluva lot about rifles.

    But hey, it is OKAY if you want to get off on me and castigate me about my lack of long gun knowledge, if it makes you feel better. I simply stated a premise and was QUITE CLEAR that I was blue-skying, and if someone would set me straight about the .270, fine.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    It's a joke, Sam, a conceit. Or a board meme. That is, if you really do not understand it. Fine cartridge for just about any game in the U.S.

    Thanks! An actual answer. All I was looking for. And no, I really do NOT know about rifle calibers that much. Ignorance is not the same as stupidity. If it's a running joke, I'm down with that.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    Several of my .30-06's outshoot the .270 velocity-wise with the same weight bullets. I've got one .270 that I picked up from the bargain rack at the LGS. I keep it around to use as a loaner, at least until I need the action to build something more interesting.
    Jerry

    Again, a real answer to my question. Thanks!

    Guys, it's OKAY to not know as much as others about certain subjects. We don't necessarily spring full born like Athena from the brow of Zeus, our heads buzzing with extensive knowledge about all variety or firearms. (Not that Athena was much into guns)

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    zorba wrote: »
    Sam, here's the resultant thread from when I was asking similar questions:

    http://forums.gunsandammo.com/showthread.php?15644-So-What-s-wrong-with-a-270

    Thanks, Zorba. I now remember that thread. Like Buck Mulligan, "I only remember ideas and sensations." and tend to forget G&A threads that weren't flame wars, ha ha.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,779 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    (Not that Athena was much into guns)

    Correct - She has Her spear!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,779 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    Thanks, Zorba. I now remember that thread. Like Buck Mulligan, "I only remember ideas and sensations." and tend to forget G&A threads that weren't flame wars, ha ha.
    Yea - I don't know what from on rifle calibers either - and I'm not much better on handgun calibers. Which is why I hang out "listening" to the "talk" here to learn something. I know a .303 Brit kicks like a mule, sounds like a Howitzer, and destroys anything it hits. Beyond that, not an expert - I just like to shoot.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,909 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    One of my favorites:

    "The .308 Winchester has far more power and range capability than the .30-06"

    That one never fails to make me giggle.

    I love this crap. I had a friend come over one day and I showed him some of my collection. When I was done he asked me why I didn't have a .308 Winchester. He said he had one. He couldn't understand why I, a gun club officer, shooter, hunter, Reloader, didn't have the hottest round in town. When I told him that my 30-06 covered that, he said you mean you're telling me that the 30-06 is more powerful than a .308? I said, "Yeah, pretty much so!" I thought he was gonna choke on his Copenhagen! Then I showed him a spent 308 case and a spent 30-06 case and he says, SO? I said so it holds about 10 grains more powder and when stuffed with 165-180 or even 200 grain bullets you would see the velocity of the 30-06 leap ahead. He's still looking at me like I'm lying through my teeth. I then got my Speer #9 loading manual off the shelf and showed him the loading data for 180 and 200 grain bullets. He still didn't get it.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • gatorgator Senior Member Posts: 1,700 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    Of course the subject of this thread is humor and sarcasm, but will someone please explain to me the vehemence against the .270? Way I see it, the .270 is simply a light caliber rifle that's mostly okay for small game or just plinking. Why the derision? Because I don't really see anything inherently "wrong" with the .270, just so long as it's not mistaken for a long range or high power rifle caliber. I've shot .270s and they are an okay round, nothing to turn handsprings over, but not bad either.

    I mean, years ago when I hunted deer, I carried a very lightweight Ruger .243 carbine. Now, in the brushy and close-range hunting areas where I went (western/central Missouri) you really don't find large deer nor do you usually have the wide open prairie where longer ranges or larger deer calibers are needed. My little .243 brought down deer quite nicely, thank you.

    So what's the gripe about the .270? If used for its intended purpose (smaller game, closer distance) it's okay. Is it because there's a bunch of pro-.270 fans who claim it's the baddest and best and therefore look silly?

    Sam, I would like for you to show me where you said that you were guessing.
    USMC 80-84
    -96 lbs
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,180 Senior Member
    Wanna start an argument???!!!!!!!!!!!! Marlin vs. Winchester lever rifles., .30-06 vs. .270 Win., 1911 pistol vs. all comers, .45 ACP vs. 9mm. or anything else, and on, and on, and on, and on.

    As to knockdown power, I'd CCW an 18" barreled 3" mag chambered 12 gauge loaded with slugs, but carrying one concealed makes me walk funny, sorta kinda like Chester on Gunsmoke.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • TrueTone911TrueTone911 Senior Member Posts: 6,066 Senior Member
    OK

    Capacity or Caliber?

    Here in the land of capacity limits, it seems like less of a debate. 10 rounds of 9mm or 8 rounds of .45 for my nightstand gun. How about those of you that live in one of those free states? I think I would take 17 rounds of 9mm over 8 rounds of .45 in a 1911. What about a 10 round double stack .45 pistol of some make? Gets you a couple more rounds but still quite a bit less than a 17 round 9mm. How about 15 rounds of .40, do you take that over 17 rounds of 9mm?
    Oppressors can tyrannize only when they achieve a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace.  ~ James Madison
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,165 Senior Member
    8+1 of .45 has been selected over 13+1 of 9mm for me, just because I'm a bit better with the 1911 than I am with the Hi Power, so I'd rather game my odds for myself as much as possible.

    But I wouldn't feel underarmed with 6 of .357.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,467 Senior Member
    The lowest I go is 115gr .38spl in my Dan Wesson, so that anyone in the house can use it when needed. If it's me, it's a .45acp.
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • justin10mmjustin10mm Senior Member Posts: 688 Senior Member
    Think of it this way. The .270 is the equivalent of a 6 foot 5 bouncer that everyone calls "Tiny".
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,940 Senior Member
    TT, at times I'm only carrying 6 rounds of 40 :yikes:

    Has worked for me so far :beer:
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    gator wrote: »
    Sam, I would like for you to show me where you said that you were guessing.

    Er, sure:

    "I'm wrong because I simply do not know. I have often admitted that my knowledge of guns is mostly handguns and usually pistols and canted toward self defense. So my knowledge of rifles is woeful and I have OFTEN admitted such."

    I don't know. Repeat: I DON'T KNOW. I'm not an expert. (I am not Prince Hamlet nor intend to be, to quote Prufrock) My own personal experience w. a .270 is very limited, as I've never really been much into long guns or hunting, caliber regardless. I've fired a .270 on occasion, thought it was okay, no elephant gun, no mouse gun either. Someone wants to use a .270, hey, be my ghost.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    OK

    Capacity or Caliber?

    Here in the land of capacity limits, it seems like less of a debate. 10 rounds of 9mm or 8 rounds of .45 for my nightstand gun. How about those of you that live in one of those free states? I think I would take 17 rounds of 9mm over 8 rounds of .45 in a 1911. What about a 10 round double stack .45 pistol of some make? Gets you a couple more rounds but still quite a bit less than a 17 round 9mm. How about 15 rounds of .40, do you take that over 17 rounds of 9mm?

    As has been stated, this would make (and has made) a solid topic for a full thread.

    I personally tend to rely more on the .45acp than anything else. Capacity depends on which pistol I pick up -- my 8+1 1911 Operator, or my 13+1 XD Tactical. Both have CorBon PowrBall.

    Way I figure, if I need more than 8 rounds of .45acp, I'm up against some serious mall ninjas, and likely toast.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,909 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    As has been stated, this would make (and has made) a solid topic for a full thread.

    I personally tend to rely more on the .45acp than anything else. Capacity depends on which pistol I pick up -- my 8+1 1911 Operator, or my 13+1 XD Tactical. Both have CorBon PowrBall.

    Way I figure, if I need more than 8 rounds of .45acp, I'm up against some serious mall ninjas, and likely toast.

    I've been thinking about this thread because every few days I'll read through it for additions. I think I would feel equally as well armed with 8 45 ACPs in a 1911 or 16 rounds of 9mm in my S&W 469. OR even just 6 rounds in my 357 Magnum 586 S&W. I have two speed loaders for the S&W Revolver and .357 just REEKS of confidence.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    I've been thinking about this thread because every few days I'll read through it for additions. I think I would feel equally as well armed with 8 45 ACPs in a 1911 or 16 rounds of 9mm in my S&W 469. OR even just 6 rounds in my 357 Magnum 586 S&W. I have two speed loaders for the S&W Revolver and .357 just REEKS of confidence.
    +
    I'd tend to agree, generally. Most here know that I just don't have the wherewithal to own a raft of guns so I'm pretty selective. It's hard to shell out $800+ for a new pistol when the car's AC is fritzed, y'know.

    Anyway, so long as it's reasonably heavy caliber, .357 or .45 or similar, 5-6 rounds should be okay, assuming that you get good shot placement, which is apparently half the battle.

    A deadly assault will come to you in one of two general ways, I'd guess: 1- some low-level street thug looking to carjack or mug you or a couple of drug-thugs busting in your kitchen door, or, 2- a determined assault from several well armed and well trained bad guys.

    If it's #1, shooting the lead guy with 2-3 hot rounds should put him down and scare the bejeezus out of his pals, to which they'll run away. Or if it's scenario #2, your shooting one of the invaders won't dissuade the 4 or 5 others, who will then overwhelm you. At least that's my guess. I'm not really sure that a civilian facing an assault will either 1- need to or 2- have time to reload. But that's just my uneducated and unapproved guess (not having cleared this posting with my auto-censor staff yet).

    I'm not saying "you" as the snake you, but the "group you" as in "one may do this".

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • gatorgator Senior Member Posts: 1,700 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    Er, sure:

    "I'm wrong because I simply do not know. I have often admitted that my knowledge of guns is mostly handguns and usually pistols and canted toward self defense. So my knowledge of rifles is woeful and I have OFTEN admitted such."

    I don't know. Repeat: I DON'T KNOW. I'm not an expert. (I am not Prince Hamlet nor intend to be, to quote Prufrock) My own personal experience w. a .270 is very limited, as I've never really been much into long guns or hunting, caliber regardless. I've fired a .270 on occasion, thought it was okay, no elephant gun, no mouse gun either. Someone wants to use a .270, hey, be my ghost.

    If you backwater to fast you'll swamp your canoe
    USMC 80-84
    -96 lbs
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 23,982 Senior Member
    gator wrote: »
    If you backwater to fast you'll swamp your canoe
    If you pull too hard forward from a dead stop, you can, also.
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    gator wrote: »
    If you backwater to fast you'll swamp your canoe

    So, if I'm on a fast, it's best to stay out of canoes? Good to know. Next time I'm in a canoe, I'll remember not to fast. Keen.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,909 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    +
    I'd tend to agree, generally. Most here know that I just don't have the wherewithal to own a raft of guns so I'm pretty selective. It's hard to shell out $800+ for a new pistol when the car's AC is fritzed, y'know.

    Anyway, so long as it's reasonably heavy caliber, .357 or .45 or similar, 5-6 rounds should be okay, assuming that you get good shot placement, which is apparently half the battle.

    A deadly assault will come to you in one of two general ways, I'd guess: 1- some low-level street thug looking to carjack or mug you or a couple of drug-thugs busting in your kitchen door, or, 2- a determined assault from several well armed and well trained bad guys.

    If it's #1, shooting the lead guy with 2-3 hot rounds should put him down and scare the bejeezus out of his pals, to which they'll run away. Or if it's scenario #2, your shooting one of the invaders won't dissuade the 4 or 5 others, who will then overwhelm you. At least that's my guess. I'm not really sure that a civilian facing an assault will either 1- need to or 2- have time to reload. But that's just my uneducated and unapproved guess (not having cleared this posting with my auto-censor staff yet).

    I'm not saying "you" as the snake you, but the "group you" as in "one may do this".

    I agree with you Sam. I only have 4 hand guns and I too am limited. That's why one of those 4 is a 45 ACP and the other is a .357 Mag. And I shoot 38s in the .357 most of the time, but in my speed loaders and in it's cylinder when it's not at the gun range punching paper are good hot 125 grain jacketed hollow points. The 45 has a full magazine of 230 grain Round Nose in its magazine at all times. If you have any doubts about the .357 Mag. as a good defensive weapon, go shoot something with it. It is the REAL DEAL! It packs a wallop and is very deadly.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,779 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    It packs a wallop and is very deadly.
    I'm no expert, but I sure wouldn't want to be in front of a .357!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,165 Senior Member
    zorba wrote: »
    I'm no expert, but I sure wouldn't want to be in front of a .357!
    Personally, I'd rather not be shot with a BB gun...
    Overkill is underrated.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,909 Senior Member
    Personally, I'd rather not be shot with a BB gun...

    Only if there's money on it for me, Lots of MONEY!:jester:
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,779 Senior Member
    How about a squirt gun? :silly:
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    If you have any doubts about the .357 Mag. as a good defensive weapon, go shoot something with it. It is the REAL DEAL! It packs a wallop and is very deadly.

    From its introduction, the .357 has been a very lethal round. Add to that any top-rank hollowpoints, and you've got a first class weapon.

    Re. my .45s, I've switched 100% to CorBon PowrBall ammo. It's a typical high-velocity +P hollowpoint but also has that nice smooth round nose that helps feeding -- some deep-cut hollowpoints can occasionally jam on a steep feed ramp. So the hollow plastic ball on the tip of the PowrBall is a real help. I have had zero misfeeds from that round.

    You might buy a box of those and see how they shoot, just for fun.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • skoroskoro New Member Posts: 6 New Member
    I know someone who just attended a CCW course, and they were telling me some of the nuggets of wisdom they've heard from that and from handgun shopping for a new carry gun...

    1. Larger bullets = more knockdown power. The .45 ACP is the king of all of it, as it's the biggest bullet one can carry reasonably.
    2. Polymer pistols need less to no lube as they're "self-lubricating."
    3. You handgun mag should contain JHP and FMJ bullets, alternating, in case you have to stop a car and need to shoot the engine block. Likewise your shotgun mag should contain alternating slugs and buckshot for the same reason.
    4. 9mm are puny junk.
    5. .40 S&W are junk. (told at a different place.)
    6. The XD is a cheap, low-quality imitation of the Glock. With the exception of the XDs.
    7. If you carry a spare mag, make it as high of capacity as needed, and carry two. Because if you need a spare mag in a CCW gunfight, you're going to be in it for the long haul.
    Edited to add:
    8. An unloaded pump shotgun may be the best defensive tool out there, as the mere sound of it being racked will send most mortal running.

    All in all, seems like this person's gotten some info that's either wrong, based on outdated thinking, or that's been prejudiced by the relayer's perspectives in military or LE circles. Sad that some of this stuff still exists. Sadder still folks pay money and get this sort of information.

    Disappointing but not surprising that some "trainers" are still dishing out these tired old lines of bull pucky.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,549 Senior Member
    justin10mm wrote: »
    Think of it this way. The .270 is the equivalent of Nancy Peolsi in a porno. The parts are there, but there at least a couple better out there.
    FIFY
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
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