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Razorbacker
Senior MemberGod's countryPosts: 4,646 Senior Member
ATI ARs ???
Razorbacker
Senior MemberGod's countryPosts: 4,646 Senior Member
Here's one review:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/04/foghorn/gun-review-ati-omni-hybrid-polymer-ar-15/
An LGS here has a truck load coming in next week and they'll retail for $499. The review says they stink. I've seen stripped lowers around here for from 70 to 130 bucks. Would that solve the function problem mentioned in the review? I really only want one 'cause the government doesn't want me to have one. So I'm not interested in expensive after market triggers, etc. But it does need to function reliably.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/04/foghorn/gun-review-ati-omni-hybrid-polymer-ar-15/
An LGS here has a truck load coming in next week and they'll retail for $499. The review says they stink. I've seen stripped lowers around here for from 70 to 130 bucks. Would that solve the function problem mentioned in the review? I really only want one 'cause the government doesn't want me to have one. So I'm not interested in expensive after market triggers, etc. But it does need to function reliably.
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I just recommended my this one for a birthday present.
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_1049/products_id/88912/CMMG+55AED49+Bull+Barrel+SS+223+Rem5.56+NATO+16%22+30%2B1+6-
Dad 5-31-13
-Mikhail Kalashnikov
However, for about $50 more, you can buy a new DPMS Oracle. A real metal frame, and an established reputation for reliability and outstanding accuracy make it a genuine value. That would be my choice for a reasonably priced AR15. But then, I would never pay more than that for any AR, made by anybody. I still have to look in the mirror now and then, and I don't want to see "sucker" magically appear on my forehead.
Parting thought, what do you against these companies making a profit?
Dad 5-31-13
The best I can give you for a "source" is that I know a few people in the biz. Unfortunately, no specific websites, so take it or leave it. A Glock frame is made from a high tech plastic polymer called Nylon 6. The commercial price for high-grade Nylon 6 is well under $4/pound. Of course the mold needed can run to a quarter of a million bucks, but that's quickly recovered and those molds are long-since paid for. The final cost on a finished polymer Glock frame is a hair under $3.
I have absolutely nothing against a company making a profit. Back when I was a restaurateur, my food cost on a pizza was under 25%. Pasta dishes even less. That's the beauty of Italian food - the colors, aromas, and flavors all scream 'value' while the owner laughs all the way to the bank.
One of these days, a company like Keltec, Taurus or ATI is going to do its engineering homework, and put out a reliable, accurate and well-finished AR15 for around $400 and own the market. Nobody has to bother right now because the politics of the times has created a market that will bear any price. The Russians taught us that rifle ammo can be manufactured, packaged, shipped halfway around the world, imported, wholesaled, distributed, and despite passing through all those middle-men, still retailed for $.22/round or less. The Romanians, Poles and Yugoslavians (Serbians) were making new AK47s and AK74s that were perfectly serviceable and retailed, before Newtown, for well under $400 - and they were all steel. My Saiga .223 carbine retailed new for $299 from J&G Sales a few years ago. And that was more than they cost a few years before that. A low-cost, quality AR15 for $399 is coming - sooner or later. Bank on it, you heard it here first.
Other than that, there is no way you can seriously compare a Saiga .223 to an AR. Sure both are .223 or 5.56 but the similarities end there. The Saiga has nowhere near the capability of a run of the AR.
Dad 5-31-13
Farmboy,
To somewhat mirror what horse said, I actually have a significant background in polymer injection molding as it was the industry that fed me, clothed me, educated me and gave my dad a wonderful retirement as he was the factory manager and I worked there summers while in college. For the last 40 years, I've been telling anyone who'd listen that the Glock (the original really successful plastic gun) was priced outrageously considering the manufacturing costs. A Glock frame, is molded with inserts for pennies! Literally. I doubt it costs a dollar to make a Glock "frame" in material cost. Add to that, the placement of the inserts before the mold plates close and you are probably looking at $1. Well, that would be in America. Don't know what Austria adds to the mix as far as material costs.
If you compare how a Glock (and all the other polymer pistols) lock up, you'll see that machining is about as basic as it can be. The 1911 has three locking lugs machined into the slide. The Glock - et al - uses the chamber hood to be one big lug. It doesn't come any simpler than that. If you add it all up, a GLock, a Springfield XD and every other plastic framed pistol should cost less than $200 and that would still make GLock a rich man.
I dunno. I think their capabilities (M4 configured AR15 and Saiga .223 Carbine) are quite comparable, at least as far as my needs (home defense) go. Both are proven, tacticool military designs. My Saiga (AK) carbine goes bang every time I pull the trigger, and it goes bang as fast as I can do so. And true to the earned reputation of Kalashnikov actions, it will keep going bang until the cows come home. It takes high capacity magazines. It is festooned with rails and aftermarket toys (optics, light, laser, etc.). The AR gets a check mark for accuracy, which is often under 1 MOA, but the Saiga, at 1+ to 3 MOA, depending on ammo, is more than accurate enough (again, for my needs). The Saiga (AK) gets the check mark for reliability, ruggedness and simplicity of maintenance, although the reliability of today's ARs are much improved over their earlier iterations. Many ARs have an adjustable stock, but I can put one on my Saiga if I want to, however, I actually like the traditional carbine stock. Granted, the AR, with its changeable uppers, is unequalled for flexibility.
Under harsh climatic conditions, such as the A/C breaking down, I'd rather have the Kalashnikov. Over the varied terrains I must encounter - pavement, grass, linoleum, tile, carpet, even stairs (!) - again the nod goes to the AK. But do not be fooled, grasshopper, even in the Forbidden Zone, outside the city limits, the AK is unsurpassed for reliability.
So, all in all, I would say both weapons are equally capable, with each earning an eccentric nod here or there over the other. It's a wash, coming down to personal preference, until you add price into the equation. At half the price of an entry-level AR, and a third or quarter of the price of a 'good' AR, the Saiga is unmatched for value.
This.
Dad 5-31-13
Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose though? You want something cheap and made of plastic...you want cheap.......well we've told you......cheap comes with a price.....it has to be done right.......otherwise take your twisted panties and buy Aluminum ......it's your dollar, spend it as you will. A stripped AR Lower should be around just over $100 to $150.... cry price and realize supply/demand....cry until you you can make it better.......until then......shut yer pie-hole until YOU can make it better...........the ATI FAILED......move on. Cause if you buy all the kit and have to replace the base......well just add another 2 bills for a replacement lower. Sigh.........AR Builders aren't doing it to beat the system........we build the damn things to our specs cause we want our thing as we see fit...........not for you or others......it's a ME thing. I have two I've built........ones a Pdog/target rig....the other is an M-forgery suitable for Coyotes....To answer your ? Tracy........yes.....replace the lower.......problem solved.
Sandy ****?
-- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
I don't think any of us knows the answer since none of us has apparently owned such a rifle. It "might" or it "might not". Seems to me to be a question for an engineer, not a board question at all. Not enough data to make a judgement, really. It would all be supposition on our part.
After careful review, I promptly sold it with my DPMS upper. Kept the DPMS lower and put a Colt 14.5" upper on it.
My humble opinion on ATI Omni receivers (or whole guns using said receivers) is don't walk away from one. Get in your car and drive as fast as you can away from one.
On a related note, I did order an ATI Px2 shotgun the other day. Absolutely don't need it, but they were on sale at PSA for $99. For that price, I'll take one for a beat around/training gun. If it functions reliably, it will go in the bedroom. If it breaks or gets stolen, I'm only out $100.
Oh it did, but with the sequester and all I had a deal fall on my lap with a almost brand new Colt upper I couldn't refuse. I say almost brand new, it was fired but never had a bullet through the bore.