Personal defense scenario ! can I survive ?

DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior MemberPosts: 9,496 Senior Member
There is indeed one scenario so severe, I pray no one here ever find themselves in such dire straights!

You find yourself staring down the barrel of a weapon wielded by a badguy, however, the words "DON'T PANIC" become very important, it is possible to survive such an encounter and even emerge unscathed only needed a shower and clean underwear.

Even though pocket carry is not so well looked on by some, this is where a sub compact CCW in a good holster, one that gives the impression you are surrendering your wallet not drawing a gun, add some classic misdirection like dropping some keys ect.

I think left handed shooters have an advantage, left hand draws are less anticipated.

I don't really believe in a no win scenario, else I could not have made this post.
"There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
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Replies

  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,626 Senior Member
    As military history informs us, no battle plan survives first contact with the enemy. I believe the same is true with self/home/car defense. Train for every conceivable scenario you can, but there are no guarantees, when the real thing is going down it's all ad lib and acapella. There are just too many variables - every bad guy(s) is/are different, every location is unique, the circumstances of lighting, weather and wardrobe, innocent bystanders or nearby buildings, are you carrying packages, whatever, cannot be foreseen individually or worse, collectively. Is the crime a robbery, a knockout game, a gangsta right of passage, a hate crime, or does your attacker just want to behead you for Allah? Will your victimization be over instantly with one hellacious sucker punch, or will your ordeal last a while?

    So, all I do is practice, practice, practice, with by EDC gun, even achieving a decent level of competence with my left hand (I'm right handed). That, and just hoping, if a crisis happens, I can keep my head and take advantage of any opportunity my completely unpredictable assailant(s) may offer. I have resigned myself to the fact that even if I practice situational awareness, the element of surprise will, initially, still be with the criminal(s). It is my hope and prayer that any misstep on his/their part will allow me to seize the initiative, and provide a surprise of my own. It's all a crap shoot.
  • MississippiBoyMississippiBoy Senior Member Posts: 819 Senior Member
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,233 Senior Member
    While horselips makes good points, I do not practice since the chances of drawing against the drop are almost zero in odds. I figure if I scream like a woman and pee in my pants it will disgust anyone with a gun pointed at me. If not, I'll go with draw and shoot and hope he misses.

    I'm not a small-chance guy. I'm nearly 70 years old and have NEVER had a gun pointed at me when I didn't have the drop on the guy, so I'll save my practice ammo and live with the fact that if a guy who points a gun at me is serious about shooting, my chances of surviving are zero to zero. It's not something I like, but in reality, I doubt it will ever happen, as I'm not a convenience store clerk.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Funny how I have had lots of guns pointed at Me,
    There was My earliest encounter in My late teens, as a TV repaiman when home warranty work was profitable, I was leaving a really crappy Brooklyn tenement housing project and this young black male pulls a snubby revolver on Me.

    At first I was petrified, then a calm came over Me, I heard a siren in the distance, So I look around scared and say, I just robbed a guy, we have to run before the cops get here!!!

    There are ways to survive such encounters if you are mentally prepared.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • N320AWN320AW Senior Member Posts: 648 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    Funny how I have had lots of guns pointed at Me,
    There was My earliest encounter in My late teens, as a TV repaiman when home warranty work was profitable, I was leaving a really crappy Brooklyn tenement housing project and this young black male pulls a snubby revolver on Me.

    At first I was petrified, then a calm came over Me, I heard a siren in the distance, So I look around scared and say, I just robbed a guy, we have to run before the cops get here!!!

    There are ways to survive such encounters if you are mentally prepared.

    Why have you had so many "guns pointed at" you? If I read your post correctly you are saying that becoming another bad guy is beneficial? Give me a break!

    Ever here of pistolerocop?
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    N320AW wrote: »
    Why have you had so many "guns pointed at" you? If I read your post correctly you are saying that becoming another bad guy is beneficial? Give me a break!

    Ever here of pistolerocop?

    :popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    N320AW wrote: »
    Why have you had so many "guns pointed at" you? If I read your post correctly you are saying that becoming another bad guy is beneficial? Give me a break!

    Ever here of pistolerocop?

    Sounds like something that would be posted about me, ha ha. Doctor Who and I in the same category? Stranger things have happened, laughing as I type this.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Well, if someone is actually pointing a gun at me, I'll probably give them my wallet, regrettably. And then maybe try to shoot them afterward, as they try to leave? I dunno.

    Thing that's pretty true --- bad guys rarely expect an ordinary citizen to be armed, I think. And as Doc says, pocket carry may turn the tide. But that's a last resort.

    Naturally, as all will agree, it's better that you not have the drop put onto you, but according to Doc's scenario, cooperation is probably the survivable route and then hope for that break in concentration where you can draw and fire. Not a lot of other options.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,055 Senior Member
    pew-pew-pew-merica_zps8e51aa27.jpg
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 3,375 Senior Member
    First of all, if you're facing a drawn gun, and you can touch it, you can deflect it. If it's not within your reach, you then have to decide whether you are likely to survive the encounter by giving up your stuff, or not. If you decide the guy is going to cap you, you have nothing to lose. Hell, that Seal took 27 bullets (several to the torso) and not only survived, but killed some of the bad guys.

    Misdirection is one way. Acting totally freaking weird is another. Do or say something so totally out of character that it gives the guy pause. Confusion works in your favor. He has to react to your movement. He WILL then rush his first shot. You will have to practice this.

    Case in point. When I was a rookie cop, I practiced something with my dad's help that gave me a pretty good feeling about the survivability of this scenario. It's kind of involved, so bear with me.

    There were two scenarios, both at 5 yards. In one scenario, facing a stationary target with a holstered weapon, and at the command, shifting rapidly either left or right while drawing and placing hits on the stationary target. The other scenario, with weapon in hand, facing a target that would move either right or left 5 feet unexpectedly.

    With the weapon in hand, one has to react to the moving target and place hits on target. With gun in hand, it was easy to normally to get timed shots off first, but because I didn't know which direction my target was going to move and had to wait until it did, I often fired the first shot ineffectually, arm/side/hip and in a couple of cases, complete misses for the first shot.

    When firing on the move at a stationary target, I nearly always placed lethal hits, center mass with the very first shot.

    Also, it was harder being right handed to place lethal first shot hits on the moving target if it shifted to my right. If the target shifted to my left, the pivot was more natural and hits were easier to make.

    What this told me, was that given a situation facing a drawn gun, it would be easier for me to move, draw and make a lethal hit, than it would be for him to react to my movement, track and make a lethal hit - particularly if he was suddenly realizing he was facing an armed man instead of a frightened victim and he'd likely rush his first shot. It also told me that my movements didn't have to be fluid. In fact, shifting right or left could be jerky and uncoordinated and thereby really mess up his anticipation and aim. Also, depending on which hand the gunman was holding his weapon, you would want to shift in the direction of his strong hand, making his pivot less skeletally natural.

    One thing you do not want to do at that range is crouch. It's a natural tendency, but that puts your head in the target area. Better to be gut-shot than head shot. One you can continue to fight through, the other you can't.

    There's also nothing wrong with running.
    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • NJSOGNJSOG Member Posts: 101 Member
    I have to agree with DanChamberlain. I took a plastic practice pistol out of a friends hand...real fast. He was shocked, because he knew what I was about to do. He didn't realize I'm left handed. In the real world would I try that maneuver ? You bet I would, because I've practiced it so many time and have the confidence. Acting like nut, distraction, quick wit, what ever it takes.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,660 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    pew-pew-pew-merica_zps8e51aa27.jpg

    POTD
    :spittingcoffee::spittingcoffee::spittingcoffee::spittingcoffee::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao:
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 7,038 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    I don't really believe in a no win scenario. . .

    Sometimes checkmate happens. Acceptance of the no win scenario is at the core of the Bushido mindset. Determination to take the other guy with you is often more effective at winning the day than fixating on being around tomorrow. As Malcolm Reynolds might say "You best make peace with your dear and fluffy Lord" and let the chips fall.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,101 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    Sometimes checkmate happens. Acceptance of the no win scenario is at the core of the Bushido mindset. Determination to take the other guy with you is often more effective at winning the day than fixating on being around tomorrow. As Malcolm Reynolds might say "You best make peace with your dear and fluffy Lord" and let the chips fall.
    I'd counter that this is more of a different definition of what a "win" is. If a win is surviving to the next day, that's one thing. If making sure the other guy doesn't harm anyone else, then your definition of a win becomes more broad.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Buford wrote: »
    POTD
    :spittingcoffee::spittingcoffee::spittingcoffee::spittingcoffee::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao:

    Dang it Buford, I had to Giggle POTD .........Photo Of The Day.....not up on Internet abbreviation lingo.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,101 Senior Member
    He might also have meant "Post of the Day."
    Overkill is underrated.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    He might also have meant "Post of the Day."

    Now talk about being ambiguous ................
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • jaywaptijaywapti Senior Member Posts: 4,521 Senior Member
    The 2 cases I'm stating are a matter of public record in the Miami Dade courts, I was asked to go into the witness protection program, which I refused.

    In the first I was unarmed, Nov 1980, 2 gunman shot a woman in her car ahead of me, I tried to save her but she was killed in the back seat if my Mustang, only by running and ducking behind cars did my wife and I escape. I didn't know at the time she was a drug mule.

    The second after the trial, happened on the S Dade express way, 2 men were following me and I could see the passanger arm and gun out of his window, this time I was armed and when they pulled along side of me I got one in the face with a .41 mag, the LEOs behind me took care of the other.

    A couple of weeks ago an old buddy called to ask if I had watched a TV show called Cocaine Cowboys Reloaded, I watched it and in the middle was my Mustang with the reporter talking.

    JAY
    THE DEFINITION OF GUN CONTROL IS HITTING THE TARGET WITH YOUR FIRST SHOT
  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 3,375 Senior Member
    But neither of these cases were the ubiquitous "No-Win" scenario. Cool, however.
    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    But neither of these cases were the ubiquitous "No-Win" scenario. Cool, however.

    No but he keep his head and wits about him in two separate situations that could have proved fatal to him. One he was unarmed and the other proves guns save lives of innocent folks.

    I imagine that .41 Mag hit sent that dirtball to meet his maker?

    BTW: Good Shootin :guns: :guns:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    Even though pocket carry is not so well looked on by some, this is where a sub compact CCW in a good holster, one that gives the impression you are surrendering your wallet not drawing a gun, add some classic misdirection like dropping some keys ect.

    Reminds me of a real incident here in Houston years back. There was this downtown cop bar, "Kuffs" -- I've been there, typical small dive tavern, long bar along the wall, pool table in back.

    It was afternoon and this thug came in, carrying a revolver, to rob the place. Now in the window were posters of cops smiling, badge displays, and inside on the wall, rows of newspaper clippings about cops and photos of uniformed cops. But the thug apparently didn't notice or didn't care.

    So he went down the line of men sitting at the bar, collecting wallets. One cop (Homicide Sgt) I knew -- took out his wallet, then dropped it. Guy leaned over to pick it up, the cop drew his gun and shot the guy in the back of the head. Oops!

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 3,375 Senior Member
    The first chief of police I worked for would always carry a ring of keys in his left hand when he entered a house on a call. Once I asked him why and he dropped the keys. My eyes followed them to the floor. When I looked up, he had his finger pointed at my face and said: "That's why."
    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • topguntopgun Member Posts: 128 Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    There is indeed one scenario so severe, I pray no one here ever find themselves in such dire straights!

    You find yourself staring down the barrel of a weapon wielded by a badguy, however, the words "DON'T PANIC" become very important, it is possible to survive such an encounter and even emerge unscathed only needed a shower and clean underwear.

    Even though pocket carry is not so well looked on by some, this is where a sub compact CCW in a good holster, one that gives the impression you are surrendering your wallet not drawing a gun, add some classic misdirection like dropping some keys ect.

    I think left handed shooters have an advantage, left hand draws are less anticipated.

    I don't really believe in a no win scenario, else I could not have made this post.
    Personal defense scenario ! can I survive ?
    NO :)
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,728 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    Sometimes checkmate happens. Acceptance of the no win scenario is at the core of the Bushido mindset. Determination to take the other guy with you is often more effective at winning the day than fixating on being around tomorrow. As Malcolm Reynolds might say "You best make peace with your dear and fluffy Lord" and let the chips fall.

    One of the instructors I took some handgun and carbine classes from said once- "The vikings believed that anyone they killed in battle would be their servant in Valhalla, as long as the enemy died first. If your attacker is going to kill you, make sure you kill him harder."
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    jaywapti wrote: »
    The 2 cases I'm stating are a matter of public record in the Miami Dade courts, I was asked to go into the witness protection program, which I refused.

    In the first I was unarmed, Nov 1980, 2 gunman shot a woman in her car ahead of me, I tried to save her but she was killed in the back seat if my Mustang, only by running and ducking behind cars did my wife and I escape. I didn't know at the time she was a drug mule.

    The second after the trial, happened on the S Dade express way, 2 men were following me and I could see the passanger arm and gun out of his window, this time I was armed and when they pulled along side of me I got one in the face with a .41 mag, the LEOs behind me took care of the other.

    A couple of weeks ago an old buddy called to ask if I had watched a TV show called Cocaine Cowboys Reloaded, I watched it and in the middle was my Mustang with the reporter talking.

    JAY

    I guess the question pending is did you have "steely eyes" at the time? ha ha

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Crazy Eyes......
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Crazy eyes will work just fine.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    There is indeed one scenario so severe, I pray no one here ever find themselves in such dire straights!

    You find yourself staring down the barrel of a weapon wielded by a badguy, however, the words "DON'T PANIC" become very important, it is possible to survive such an encounter and even emerge unscathed only needed a shower and clean underwear.
    etc.

    Had this happen once but there was a fair distance between us, and I was also just getting into my car, so I had recourse to an alternative. Many years ago, details hazy. But also very scary nevertheless.

    As you imply, it's not something that's recommended for a placid evening. As anyone who's had a gun pointed at him can attest, it ain't fun.

    As everyone here knows full well, much of the whole picture of potential encounters is based on being observant and being prepared, which usually helps prevent being surprised per the scenario that Doc envisions.

    But life isn't perfect and we have to take good and bad, and it COULD happen. What to do? As Doc recommends, and as Hitchhiker's Guide says, "Don't Panic!"

    Then, as was suggested, we have to quickly weigh whether we're about to get capped even if we give over the wallet. And therefore, whether to fight.

    I don't think there's any pat answer, each specific real world scenario has its own details that make a difference in that decision. But regardless, thinking ahead and "What if?" questions in the mind are pretty good advice, so at least the panic hopefully won't set in until it's over.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    A friend of mine related the folowing account as a NYCPD Patrolman, Pat recognized a known felon with outstanding warrants, and followed him into a tenement, the perp managed to get behind Pat and take his service revolver, so you would expect Pat was screwed, the perp demands Pats wallet/money, Pat figures the Perp intends to shoot him shortly.

    Pat pulls out his wallet, the one with a High Standard .22 Magnum derringer and the perp is DRT room temperature & coffin filler etc.
    The point is, it ain't over till its over, even getting shot is not necessarily game over either, Fight until you can't fight anymore.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    The fearsome Duo.....Doc Who and Crazy Eyes Sam :yikes::rotflmao:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
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