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Did the Administration Underestimate Isis?

snake284snake284 Senior MemberPosts: 22,429 Senior Member
Or were they just asleep at the wheel as usual?
Daddy, what's an enabler?
Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.

Replies

  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,534 Senior Member
    Its funny you ask this. I was just having this discussion today with a guy I know. I'll do up my dissertation in the morning
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Sort of, but didn't take any blame himself for pulling all troops outta Iraq and not taking action in Syria years ago.........................

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/09/29/us-misjudged-iraqi-army-isis-threat-obama-says/

    "Obama says US 'underestimated' rise of ISIS, admits 'contradictory' Syria policy

    President Obama acknowledged Sunday that U.S. intelligence officials "underestimated" the threat posed by the Islamic State and overestimated the Iraqi army’s capacity to defeat the militant group."
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,812 Senior Member
    Naw, they just ignored them because they expected the American people to be too ignorant to see through their favorite narrative. Our president is a two-bit community organizer/union thug that has no experience with dealing with factual information. Everything he does starts with a political narrative that eventualy ends with a bald-faced lie that he believes the morons who put him in office will never hold him accountable for.

    He doesn't give a damn about solving real problems because he has always made his way on invented problems that there was a 'solution' for before the problem was ever even announced. Study any marginally successful dictator to see this formula that works every time, once a propaganda machine has been fine tuned and coordinated. All he has to do is sell his narratives to his adoring public, and keep elections close enough so that a little bit of strategic voter fraud can hand him the electoral college.

    This whole ISIS thing is nothing more than an inconvenience to him that makes his golf and vacation schedule look bad...at least until they blow up a couple hundred women and children and he can't blame it on someone else.

    P.S. If his handlers used the strategic expertise that they regularly use to divide the American people and focused it on geopolitics, he would not now look like a fool to both his allies and enemies - his allies, of course, being anyone who hates conservatives, and his enemy being conservative, themselves. Terrorists are simply annoyances to him, and they divert attention from his real goal of transforming the US into the Soviet Union, where the masses were all equally poor, and the elites were Gods.
  • mohicanmohican Member Posts: 381 Member
    Knowing whether or not the Obama Administration underestimated ISIS, or decides that ISIS, ISIL, SHIELD, or UNCLE is better for propaganda depends on how much you truth you expect from Obama or his mouthpieces. If Obama said the sun always rises in the East, I might set morning shades on the west side of the house, anyways.....
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Now Obammy is trying to throw the Intel community under the bus, BUT THEY WARNED him many months ago, fell on deaf ears, didn't fit his grandiose vision that terrorism is on the decline. Some on the news today.

    I'm surprised some haven't resigned in disgust. There are plenty of dedicated professionals out there who love this country as much as we do. I think some are biting their lips and riding out his regime.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,557 Senior Member
    In lieu of Centermass556's annotations (that I always enjoy!) I will offer this as objectively as possible:

    This administration has made its legacy on one under-estimation after another; be it underestimating patriotism of the people, the ability of citizens to gather facts, the country's finances, foreign leaders' intentions/resolve, etc, etc.

    It is no stretch to deduce the same naivety had something major to do with the windswept wildfire propagation of ISIL in the last year. Obama concluded that "his" hard fought decision to kill Bin Laden was the greatest achievement of that conflict, when Bin Laden's constituency had been all but eradicated or scattered by that time. He took a small isolated victory and bolstered it with his delusions of grandeur.

    This administration is childish at best and delusional about the ways of the world and the true means hateful people have to carry out their plans.

    Give em and inch, they'll take a mile.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,557 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    Naw, they just ignored them because they expected the American people to be too ignorant to see through their favorite narrative. Our president is a two-bit community organizer/union thug that has no experience with dealing with factual information. Everything he does starts with a political narrative that eventualy ends with a bald-faced lie that he believes the morons who put him in office will never hold him accountable for.

    He doesn't give a damn about solving real problems because he has always made his way on invented problems that there was a 'solution' for before the problem was ever even announced. Study any marginally successful dictator to see this formula that works every time, once a propaganda machine has been fine tuned and coordinated. All he has to do is sell his narratives to his adoring public, and keep elections close enough so that a little bit of strategic voter fraud can hand him the electoral college.

    This whole ISIS thing is nothing more than an inconvenience to him that makes his golf and vacation schedule look bad...at least until they blow up a couple hundred women and children and he can't blame it on someone else.

    P.S. If his handlers used the strategic expertise that they regularly use to divide the American people and focused it on geopolitics, he would not now look like a fool to both his allies and enemies - his allies, of course, being anyone who hates conservatives, and his enemy being conservative, themselves. Terrorists are simply annoyances to him, and they divert attention from his real goal of transforming the US into the Soviet Union, where the masses were all equally poor, and the elites were Gods.

    Lord of the Flies.

    It's not satisfactory to leave a legacy of national wealth and prosperity. It's all about using the presidency to rise to the highest elitist level possible. It's a status symbol, not a duty.

    And we all get to be the victims of it.

    Look at Barrack and Michelle. Although formally educated, they come from ignorant, dumb stock made to believe they've been wronged by racism and capitalism. America is the enemy and socialism will bring the racist, capitalist white elites to their knees.

    They are genuinely stupid people filled to the gills with intellectualistic ideology that self-justifies the unilateral authority they believe they actually have even against glaring facts they do not possess such dictatorial power--a delusion.

    Every single thing in their lives is predicated on a lie and then thrust onto us.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,865 Senior Member
    Maybe the **** finally read a newspaper.
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • AntonioAntonio Senior Member Posts: 2,986 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    Or were they just asleep at the wheel as usual?

    ...like the Japs, Hezbolla, Iran, druglords South of the border, the Nazis, Al Qaeda, the Vietcong, the Chinese, North Koreans, Somali warlords, etc. etc. At least they were dozing a little in some occasions.

    To be a little fair, even Israel, with a not-so-friendly "neighbors" is caught sleeping at the wheel every once in a while......
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,534 Senior Member
    So...IT is an Intelligence function to acess and report the strength of a Foriegn Military and its assets.

    The Short Answer is we did underestimate the strength, the validity of ISIS as a fighting force was ignored. In addtion, we set the conditions for ISIS to grow and succeed.

    Many people think we installed a Puppet Government into Iraq. That couldn't been any further from the truth. If it were True, we would have caused the Referendum to fail in 2005. Anyone with half a brain saw the referendum and constitution votes as needing to fail so the Sunni population would understand they had a say through voting and not through violence. Sunni's a minority in Iraq, and are mostly cornered in the unproductive and barren An Bar provience. The Referendum and later the Constittution was guided towards helping the Kurds and Shia and largely ignored the concerns and needs of the Sunni. As the time went on, The Government continued to grow in Shia and Kurd influence. Mostly Shia though. This did not play well with the US. Many of the Shia players now in position of power remembered how we turned our backs on them in 91. I think, and I wish I knew for sure, that is the reason the Southern Oil fields were given to Chinese business and not British or AMerican.
    The Shia influence caused sectretarian violence, and we all saw that peak around 2007. General MAthis and few outstanding gentlemen realized they could empower the Sunnis at a lower level and created the Sons of Iraq. The very start of the SUnni and subsequent Arab spring. This Idea was great. It truely was. The Sunni's started cleaning up the AQI in their own areas and helped us lock down AN Bar provience. AQI was then chased to Mosul and then Diyala. The Sunni were happy, The Shia were happy, and Iraq was starting to truly turn around.
    What we didn't know is the Shia were letting their persian cousins pull and operate strings withing the ministries of the Government. In 2009, most of the Civil Ministries had a Shia extremsit link and iranian backing. In spite of this, we were still making slow progress..but somehow the Shia were playing for the end game before we knew what it was. We kept promising the Sunnis we would support them, and we were promising the Iraqi Army ground commanders we would see them fully Mission capable before we left. We were telling the national police force they would fuly capable of inforcing civil liberties and rule of law in the streets...without fear. America was their friend for the long haul.
    Then the vote came in November in 2008. I don't know who put out the unofficial time line, that became official by Febuary of the next year, but I know the entire movement shifted. Operational people began making Assessments on Iraqi ground Forces and assets in efforts to meet the timeline for withdrawl. Terms and cliches like "right on glidpath" were common briefing dialogue as Commanders started to play politician. When in ground truth, the guys in the trenches were looking at each other and saying there is no way in hell these guys are a ready and sustainable force. But, as we know, Captains and Sergeant are told to shut up and color when their view is not what is wanted.
    We kept shoving equipment to the Iraqis and saying since they have the equipment, they are ready to fight. We still couldn't lock down a solid number on how many Soldiers the unit actually had. We didn't even have a true institution of training for these guys to learn in. The Iraqis knew they weren't ready. Many officers begged and pleaded for us stay. Some even wanted to know who they needed to talk to and make them understand how much America was needed still. And, before we knew it 2012 was there and the last convoy was leaving.
    the Shia saw their opportunity and continued to snatch up ministries and influence. More and more Persians were showing up. The Sunni and Sons of Iraq freaked out. The Ba'athist and die hard extremist saw this as there chance and boom! ISIS was born. ISIS started growing and training in the An Bar provience. It started mostly as attacks within Iraq. All those bombings we read about between 2012 and 2013...When the condtions were right in Syrai, ISIS started operating in Syria from Iraq. Securing Arms, assets, and growing in clout. ISIS knew it could take what it wanted in Iraq, it was their duck on the pond. But they needed to carve what they wanted out of Syria while they could. Once they reached the stalemate in Syria, they turned back to their easy kill.
    ISIS moved almost exactly how the serbs did in Bosnia. They moved one phase line at a time. They tested waters, then they struck. tested waters, then they struck. The Serbs culminated their crossing of lines with the Srebrencia massacre in July of 95. ISIS crossed that line early and wasn't stopped. They see nothing in their way now.

    But there it is in a nutshell. We half trained an Army and National Police. We lied about their readiness. We watch a Government (that we didn't install) become infiltrated, centric, and caustic. We turned our backs on those we promised to help. We created a panic and left a vacuum.

    I know I left some stuff out, but I actually need to do some more work today.
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    And gentlemen in all fairness W and crew did not see 9/11 coming, he did take decisive action immediately after it and did everything he thought would prevent it from happening again.

    Of course, Bubba had a chance to whack OBL earlier, but didn't wanna stir up the hornets nest.

    Obammy's spin doctors are out in force saying he did not say what he said on 60 minutes and didn't mean the Intel folks and military underestimated ISIS.

    Yep, that "JV" team of terrorist sure are not a threat.............................

    Just like him though, typical to blame everyone except himself.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,534 Senior Member
    Oh..I think I said this once...I'm not sure.

    this problem is managable. BUT, it will be ugly, it will take a long term commitment (10-15 years), and it will require Arab participation (Jordan, KSA, Kuwait).

    Arab Problems require Arab soltuions. Lawrence say this and so have many others from the wars past. Just as we started the Bosnian thing, we made it a European Problem..and so NATO made a European Solution. The same thing will be needed for this also. After we put down the hammer, the Arabs need to take the stage and solve this. There are plenty of Arab nations that do not have issues, have a stable government of form of democratic rule, and have money.
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Now the news is reporting Obammy had targeting packages as far back as 18 months ago presented to him in briefings to take out key figures in ISIS and KHORASAN, but continuously refused to act on it.

    How exactly it was presented and how much encouragement/ pleading our Intel and Military leaders gave him is hard to say and if all of their estimates and assessments were accurate.

    Touching on a good point CM made, the military has ways to suppress idys that are different from what the boss(es) was fed by his boss, POTUS. They simply "Don't want to hear it" once they are given a mission/Frag Order.

    What is really troublesome, has/will DC give Iran concessions on their nuclear weapons program to assist in fighting ISIS by relaxing sanctions and how far they can develop their program? Some say they might get stop points which would only take a couple weeks to reconnect everything to full production.

    They really need/want nuclear power to provide electricity to their cities.............yeah right.

    BTW: Who knows what really goes on behind the scenes, not in public view. It is funny bits and pieces from unidentified sources are leaked to the media usually after a brouhaha about a crisis erupts.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,534 Senior Member
    Allowing Iran in will only make things worse for us in the Arab world....
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Allowing Iran in will only make things worse for us in the Arab world....


    The enemy of our enemy is now our friend?
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,534 Senior Member
    Maybe short term... But l the Arab world will ever see is that we brought Persians back across the Tigris. It will hurt what little influence we still have in Jordan and Israel ( even though they're not arab)
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,812 Senior Member
    Arab Problems require Arab soltuions.

    I agree with this, but I think Islam prevents Arabs from doing to other Arabs what they would do to anyone else, at least on the large scale that would be needed. If some faction of Islam would develop that branded the 'Islamo-fascists' as infidels, they could slaughter them while we look the other way, and change the message that the children are being force-fed from birth. Islam could become a more modern religion, instead of continuing as a maniacal political entity bent on world domination. The Catholics reformed themselves in this way (for the most part) and retained some of their wealth and power, without continuing to exist as a threat to heretics (their version of the infidels).
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Former CIA Director (93-95 under Clinton) Woolsey said the same C of M on TV. That is, we left the Iraqi Army too soon to stand by themselves and said we should have stuck around with assistance like Korea. If would have left them they would have crumbled.

    He also said he resigned because he couldn't talk to/communicate with his boss.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • mohicanmohican Member Posts: 381 Member
    Andrew C. McCarthy, the man who prosecuted the Blind Sheik opines that Obama is lying. (Again) http://www.nationalreview.com/article/388990/khorosan-group-does-not-exist-andrew-c-mccarthy/page/0/1
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Fascinating...

    "On September 10, 2012, the GAI released a similar report showing that Obama had attended less than half (43.8%) of his daily intelligence briefings up to that point. When
    Washington Post columnist Marc Thiessen mentioned the GAI’s findings in his column, then-White House Press Secretary Jay Carney dubbed the findings “hilarious.” The very next day, U.S. Libyan Ambassador Chris Stevens and three American staff members were murdered in Benghazi. As Breitbart News reported at the time, the White House’s very own presidential calendar revealed Obama had not received his daily intel briefing in the five consecutive days leading up to the Benghazi attacks."

    How can you not love this clown....

    He should get them no matter where he is or what he is doing, even playing with himself................golf or whatever............he was after all elected to have America's best interest/security in mind right?
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Fascinating...

    "On September 10, 2012, the GAI released a similar report showing that Obama had attended less than half (43.8%) of his daily intelligence briefings up to that point. When
    Washington Post columnist Marc Thiessen mentioned the GAI’s findings in his column, then-White House Press Secretary Jay Carney dubbed the findings “hilarious.” The very next day, U.S. Libyan Ambassador Chris Stevens and three American staff members were murdered in Benghazi. As Breitbart News reported at the time, the White House’s very own presidential calendar revealed Obama had not received his daily intel briefing in the five consecutive days leading up to the Benghazi attacks."

    How can you not love this clown....

    It's very easy, I do NOT love this clown!
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • mohicanmohican Member Posts: 381 Member
    and yet, according to Trey Gowdy and John Boehner, the House has no reason to seek impeachment.....

    They could be biding their time, and hoping for a Republican Senate....

    Except that they would need a supermajority for impeachment - and they had a very firm control of the Senate during the Clinton Impeachment Trial in the Senate and couldn't get all the Republican Senators to go along with it, let alone swing any Democrat Senators in line.

    But Hey, I hear his drive off the first tee is looking good.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,812 Senior Member
    mohican wrote: »
    and yet, according to Trey Gowdy and John Boehner, the House has no reason to seek impeachment.....

    They could be biding their time, and hoping for a Republican Senate....

    Except that they would need a supermajority for impeachment - and they had a very firm control of the Senate during the Clinton Impeachment Trial in the Senate and couldn't get all the Republican Senators to go along with it, let alone swing any Democrat Senators in line.

    But Hey, I hear his drive off the first tee is looking good.

    The Clinton impeachment was doomed to failure because, party loyalties aside, he didn't do anything that quite a few members of Congress wouldn't have done themselves, given the opportunity.

    The only issue that would even have a chance to convict Obama would be dereliction of duty in his role as CIC. Even then, they would need a smoking gun and Democrat whistle-blowers to prove he was not reading the intelligence briefs. Were there to be a major terrorist attack that succeeded in outraging senior liberal Democrats, they might jump on the bandwagon in an effort to save their Party.

    For the most part, impeachment is a waste of political capital and time, unless the President's own party hates him, all the way down to the grass roots. I would prefer a Republican President and super majority in Congress that was bent on putting the worst of the previous administration's offenders in jail. Disgrace them to the point that they want to reform themselves. Of course, even that assumes that the Republicans are superior, ethically, and that issue is in doubt.
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 6,244 Senior Member
    mohican wrote: »
    and yet, according to Trey Gowdy and John Boehner, the House has no reason to seek impeachment.....

    They could be biding their time, and hoping for a Republican Senate....

    Except that they would need a supermajority for impeachment - and they had a very firm control of the Senate during the Clinton Impeachment Trial in the Senate and couldn't get all the Republican Senators to go along with it, let alone swing any Democrat Senators in line.

    But Hey, I hear his drive off the first tee is looking good.
    I'm so sick of every term, the losing party cries continually for impeachment. It cheapens the act. GWB, the liberals called for his impeachment nearly his entire term. We have done the same for Obama. Clinton was impeached for saying he didn't get nookie.

    Obama has committed no impeachable offense. I don't like the guy, but come on. What do you have on the guy? He's skipped Intel briefings? Golfs too much? Give me a break. He has radically different views than most of us here, so we sue for impeachment. Save that very serious charge for high crimes and treason.

    Next term, if there's a Republican in office, we'll hear the same crap.
  • mohicanmohican Member Posts: 381 Member
    Buffco wrote: »
    Obama has committed no impeachable offense. I don't like the guy, but come on. What do you have on the guy? He's skipped Intel briefings? Golfs too much? Give me a break. He has radically different views than most of us here, so we sue for impeachment. Save that very serious charge for high crimes and treason.

    .

    I'll agree to disagree. The bar originally set isn't "Serious charges for High Crimes and Treason" but high crimes and misdemeanors. For him as the administrator of the country to not got top down through the IRS, for example and allow people to remain in place is beyond the pale - Nixon's IRS was much less politicized and one of the charges against him was using the IRS against political enemies.

    I could go on, but at this point I won't.
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 6,244 Senior Member
    Again. What impeachable offense has he committed?
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    Buffco wrote: »
    Again. What impeachable offense has he committed?

    If we all really knew everything it might fill volumes, but we don't know at this point. He's slicker than a greased pig. Of course it's hard to pin down a president unless he just blatantly screws up, like Nixon not burning those tapes. If he would have done that, this whole country might look completely different right now.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • mohicanmohican Member Posts: 381 Member
    Buffco wrote: »
    Again. What impeachable offense has he committed?

    If you take that little bit of the U.S. Constitution seriously about not granting titles of nobility then everyone that he dubbed a Czar would be a reason. Especially since few if any of the
    Czars were ushered in without the advice and consent of the Senate.

    Of if you and your minions at the EPA continue with actions that Federal judges told you to cease and desist with (during BP oil spill) then the president would be in contempt of court.

    If you, as president told the public repeatedly that if they liked their health care plan or their doctor, they could keep it, knowing under the AFCA that was not true, then you as president have lied to the citizens of the US. Was that a charge against Nixon?

    If you issued waivers, or scrub start dates of parts of legislation which is congresses job (AFCA again) then you have as president violated the separation of powers so clearly called out in the US Constitution - again impeachable.

    I leave it there for now to keep it brief.
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