Science Fiction/Fantasy Writers War

centermass556centermass556 Senior MemberPosts: 3,508 Senior Member
I was reading some Blogs over the weekend...Holy Cow, there is a huge war being waged in the Science fiction and fantasy world between wrtiers.

Seems there push back from the more conservative view writers towards the left leaning writers using literature as a platform...Oh and using their writing as the Gold standard of the Genre/s
"To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."

Replies

  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    I'm a lifelong SF fan but I'm unaware of this. Can you be more specific about what this is all about, and which writers are on which side of the fight? Sounds like fun. Got any links to the hassle? Thanks.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,605 Senior Member
    :that::that:
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,731 Senior Member
    Cm- is this some more of the stuff that Larry Corriea is involved in?
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,508 Senior Member
    Bullsi, Yeah it is.

    But the more blogs I read over the weekend, the more I saw that it is a huge spread. It is almost like Baen against Tor. I don't know if Larry was the instigator, but I do know he is running the Vanguard.

    Two main names have been Larry Corriea against John Scalzi and crew.
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Bullsi, Yeah it is.

    But the more blogs I read over the weekend, the more I saw that it is a huge spread. It is almost like Baen against Tor. I don't know if Larry was the instigator, but I do know he is running the Vanguard.

    Two main names have been Larry Corriea against John Scalzi and crew.

    But what is the argument about? Does anyone here know? Is it person-to-person or about certain themes in the authors' books?

    I see that Corriea is a fantasy writer. Where does the SF stuff come into the fray? Or is this only about fantasy writers?

    Anybody care to say, in words, what the row is all about? Or post a link about it? Thanks.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,731 Senior Member
    It's the argument of "Message Fiction". Where some writers want to write a story JUST to push a message for whatever the current Social Justice issue of the day is, and others think that getting a message across is fine, as long as the story (and entertaining fans) is the fist and foremost thing that fiction is about.

    Let me google some links for you. Some of the twitter slapfights are pretty damn funny
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,508 Senior Member
    Sorry Sam, I did a drive by response and didn't get back to post the links to what I had read. I'll find the others that may have been missed.
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,106 Senior Member
    Speaking of Larry Corriea, I love this takedown of Mat Bors he did last year. Epic slapdown of antigun argument from Bors. Caution; some rough language is involved.

    http://monsterhunternation.com/2013/09/18/fisking-an-ignorant-gun-control-editorial/
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,731 Senior Member

    I've read Correia's writings elsewhere (as a political columnist in a competing magazine.) He's a bit bombastic in his approach.

    That is kinda what he does.

    Full disclosure- I am a huge Corriea fanboi. Don't read any SF/Fantasy, except for Corriea. Mostly because guns.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,108 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    That is kinda what he does.

    Full disclosure- I am a huge Corriea fanboi. Don't read any SF/Fantasy, except for Corriea. Mostly because guns.
    Never read any of his sci-fi writings, and after reading a few of his columns I figured that was his writing style. Written in a gun magazine it's probably more preaching to the choir, but if it sells, it sells...
    Overkill is underrated.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Never read any of his sci-fi writings, and after reading a few of his columns I figured that was his writing style. Written in a gun magazine it's probably more preaching to the choir, but if it sells, it sells...

    I kinda think that he doesn't write SF, only fantasy. At least that's all I've seen of his listings.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Sorry Sam, I did a drive by response and didn't get back to post the links to what I had read. I'll find the others that may have been missed.

    No problem. I'm just curious, being, as I've said, a lifetime SF and fantasy fan (not so much fantasy these days) and I've followed SF "battles" for ages. Many years ago when the SF "New Wave" came into force, I was a huge supporter of those writers -- Roger Zelazny, Chip Delaney, Larry Niven, Robert Silverberg, Philip K. [**] etc. The "old guys" fought against increased sexual and more graphic scenes, lots more "adult" than the pretty mild stories by Asimov and others.

    Not that I didn't like Asimov and the other old guard, but I welcomed reading PG-13 and R rated stories where people actually got killed and also got laid, like real people.

    So I'm just naturally curious about the subject matter of this recent spat.

    ** The stupid auto-censor just edited out the last name of the famous SF writer Philip K. (male organ last name and short for "Richard"), aka Blade Runner and other stories. Duh!!

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    Sam

    L Ron Hubbard is old guard, and is very violent, and sexual. Read his Mission Earth if you want some R rated SF.

    I don't know crap about the Scientology stuff. I have just read a few of his SF books.
    It's because I hate Trump.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    I'm guessing this is what's going on?
    etc etc

    Thanks for the links, bream. I read them and apparently all the hoopla is about one particular writer, Larry Corriea, due to his rightwing and pro-gun stance.

    I'm not much of a fantasy fan and he doesn't seem to write SF, only fantasy, so this is why I've not heard of him before.

    Trends in political favoritism in various sets of publishing are nothing new. This has been going on forever. For instance, in the 20s and 30s, everything mainstream was focused on neo-platanism and writers like F. Scott Fitzgerald and Thomas Wolfe (Look Homeward Angel) were the cat's pajamas and novels with different themes weren't much considered by the big publishing houses.

    In mysteries, when writers like Dashiell Hammett and the noir writers such as James M. Cain were getting started, they couldn't get their stuff in print because everything was the "cozy" sort, like Agatha Christie.

    And like I said, in the 60s the "new wave" of SF writers swept into the fray, and were decried by those who supported older style writers such as Asimov. Naturally the writers themselves, Asimov included, were happy to see new blood in the genre and cared not a whit. But it was the rabid fans and critics who pushed the older agendas.

    I read plenty of mysteries, since I write reviews for an e-zine, so I go thru maybe 6-8 books a month. And I'm also on the review committee for the PWA (Private Eye Writers of America). Therefore I know the trends. What I've discovered is that there's a sense of neutrality.

    Some years ago, a trend of harsher type of novels came into play, with strong scenes of violence and sexuality, absolutely "R" rated stuff. Some was well written, some was trash, as is typical for most genres. Well, the "establishment" decried the strong language in these books for a while, then they settled down and didn't complain much, and began to quite properly focus instead on the quality of the writing. So that's a good thing.

    As far as political trends in mystery fiction, it seems to be fairly neutral. Writers like John Sandford (the superb Lucas Davenport "Prey" series) are outspokenly pro-gun. Davenport is very much that way in his books -- in a recent novel, the teenage girl at the home shoots and kills two baddies with her stepdad's 1911 (her stepdad is Lucas) and she doesn't bat an eye. Nor is the book critical of what she does. Sandford admits in his blogs that he's a "gun nut" and jokes about it, and in his novels, Lucas and other cops are always shooting in impromptu target matches, like at the city dump and so on. And Sandford isn't a "gun writer" sort of novelist either -- he's just a mainstream mystery writer. Another fairly pro-gun writer is Robert Crais, author of the "Elvis Cole" private eye series.

    Other well known mystery authors are noticeably liberal, like my old pal Bill Pronzini, who often inserts jibes at Limbaugh and others, and his use of guns in his novels is very sketchy.

    In other words, mystery writers are across the spectrum and all seem to be evaluated on the quality of their writing and not their politics. Of course, these top writers also don't preach sermons in their book, either. Using a novel as a pulpit or as a stump to make a political speech is the kiss of death.

    I'm not likely to read a fantasy novel about demons or warlocks or whatever, so I'm not likely to read any of Corriea's books.

    BTW if he's written any REAL science fiction, no supernatural or demons or whatever, someone let me know and I may give it a try. But I just don't care much for fantasy.

    Anyway, if Corriea's preaching in his novels and using them as a pulpit for leftwing or rightwing politics, he can go take a flying leap. But if his books are generally themed as somewhat "conservative" themed without preaching, then he's fine in my estimation.

    I mean, in my own novels I am openly pro-gun and that's okay. But I do try to avoid making political statements. After all, I'm writing a mystery, not a political action novel. In my recent "Blood Vengeance" I did have a few comments about the goodness of citizen's concealed carry but I tried to minimize it and not preach.

    Let me also say that when my books have been evaluated by pros, I've had ZERO negative feedback on the political themes in them. Of course I've kept that to a minimum, not because I'm trying to avoid it, but because the book's a mystery, darn it.

    It does seem that SF and fantasy fans are a lot more political than mystery fans, and the same goes for the editors and critics.

    Of course if Larry's using his books as diatribes, he needs to be criticized, not for a political stance but for airing his political laundry in a fantasy novel.

    Thanks again for posting the links.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,731 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    Anyway, if Corriea's preaching in his novels and using them as a pulpit for leftwing or rightwing politics, he can go take a flying leap. But if his books are generally themed as somewhat "conservative" themed without preaching, then he's fine in my estimation.

    I mean, in my own novels I am openly pro-gun and that's okay. But I do try to avoid making political statements. After all, I'm writing a mystery, not a political action novel. In my recent "Blood Vengeance" I did have a few comments about the goodness of citizen's concealed carry but I tried to minimize it and not preach.

    Let me also say that when my books have been evaluated by pros, I've had ZERO negative feedback on the political themes in them. Of course I've kept that to a minimum, not because I'm trying to avoid it, but because the book's a mystery, darn it.

    It does seem that SF and fantasy fans are a lot more political than mystery fans, and the same goes for the editors and critics.

    Of course if Larry's using his books as diatribes, he needs to be criticized, not for a political stance but for airing his political laundry in a fantasy novel.

    That's just the thing- Corriea doesn't do any social justice stuff and message fiction. He just writes a fun story that has a pro-gun, pro-business, pro-individual slant. He is also vocal about being conservative, therefore he is derided by the literati. The only reason this is Sci-Fi/ Fantasy, is because book scan, the Hugos, etc... lump them together.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Well, regardless of his books, it's obvious that the political fervor in the fantasy fan/world is a lot more energetic than it is in the mystery fiction world.

    In my newsletters, both PWA (Private Eye Writers of America) and MWA (Mystery Writers of America) -- I'm a member of both although I'm not active in MWA, just PWA -- I've yet to see anything in editorials or whatever regarding politics at all, including political views of authors. And as I said, there are plenty of high-ranking (in sales, general popularity, and awards) conservative pro-gun authors and they don't get a whiff of criticism for their views. The only comments are about the actual writing, which is at it should be.

    Anyway, if you come across any actual SF (not fantasy) that Corriea has written, lemme know.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
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