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Hammond police sued over use of Taser during traffic stop

Big ChiefBig Chief Senior MemberPosts: 32,995 Senior Member
He should have just complied. Family upset about dying parent in hospital, but a pullover by Cops is not the place to make your stand and argue. Just comply with an officers instructions or it will be a loose loose situation for you. They were within their rights to bust his window and Tase him and he is lucky he wasn't shot after reaching for his bag/ID (?), others have been.

Could they have used more digression, yes. However both officers have been involved in civil rights issues before this incident.

What say you?



http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-hammond-police-taser-story.html
It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
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Replies

  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 10,914 Senior Member
    I watched the video on the news last night. Stop was not wearing a seat belt. Man was asked for ID, he stated that he did not have one and was disrespectful to the office. Officer asked him to exit vehicle and he said "NO". Then proceeded to say that he was afraid and wanted a more senior officer present. Something to the effect that I want a Lieutenant here. Officer said look at my collar dumb ^$$, I am wearing bars. News fast forwards to Police again telling man to exit car and he says no. The police then ask do you want the kids to see you hauled out through the window and his repsonse was you wont do that. The window was then broken and he was tases and dragged out of the car.

    I do not see anything wrong with what the officers did. What I saw was a guy being a jerk to the police.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    I hate to say it...........no I don't...........if I were a cop, I'd be one Profiling SOB, Middle Eastern, Black, Mexican, gang banger, wearing a Hoodie, late at night, bad neighborhoods, whatever..........you bet where PAST experience has shown there is an unusually high % of crime. I know it would be unfair in a sense, but probably right on the money 75% of the time.

    That used to be called Good Police Work!
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,394 Senior Member
    As much as this pains me to say so, a cop has to have some authority or he's nothing but a Barny Fife. But the problem comes when some abuse this authority. And there's nothing we as citizens can do at the moment. We just have to eat it and try not to escalate things. I think that if we really feel the officer is not acting correctly, then we should try to be polite but inform him that you will report his behavior to a HIGHER Authority. Then just try to get by it without anymore problems.

    Then, as soon as you have the opportunity, report this incident to that higher authority. Believe me, if you are right, it will pay off. For one, if someone does this to you, he/she is doing, will do, or has done it to somebody else and it will come out.

    We had one such butt head officer here that was really pissing off the populace. I went to the JP over my area and told him. He told me that he wouldn't step in right there, but I should take the defensive driving course to keep the offense he had ticketed me with off my driving record. he hinted to me that I was not the only complainer about this officer and that nature WOULD take its course because he would report my complaint to the chief. And lo and behold, this officer was gone in about a month. I found out later that almost 300 people complained about it and it all got back to the Chief, who promptly fired the offending officer. Yes, There IS A GOD!
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 10,914 Senior Member
    The only thing that I fault the officer for is calling the man Dumb ^$$. It was a legitimate traffic stop and when asked for ID he told cop he didnt have it. When cop asked him to exit the vehicle he put up the window and locked the door. If he had ID in his bad all he had to do was hand it to the police officer and they might have gotten a ticket for failure to wear seatbelts
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • jaywaptijaywapti Senior Member Posts: 4,958 Senior Member
    I see nothing wrong with what the LEOs did, the guy was sitting in the back seat getting something from his back pack, he's lucky he didn't get shot.

    Many years ago a LEO (friend) told me " if your polite , i'll be nice " So far I've found this to be true.

    JAY
    THE DEFINITION OF GUN CONTROL IS HITTING THE TARGET WITH YOUR FIRST SHOT
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Digression ?

    Discretion ?

    But I digress,

    What sayest thou ? LoL!!
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,628 Senior Member
    All of this for what? Not wearing a freaking seatbelt? You're kidding me. Thank God one of the kids didn't have an overdue library book. Thirty days in the electric chair! The police officers were concerned the passenger might have had a weapon? Shouldn't everybody always have a weapon? I always do. The driver was right - cite her for the seat belt violation, let her go, and move on to busting some real bad guys. I'm sure Hammond cops have bigger fish to fry than this poor lady and her moronic passenger. And breaking the window with kids in the car, and tasering the passenger 'just because' was completely dumb. The police did nothing to alay the passenger's fear of police, nothing to pursuade him to cooperate, just got all bossy and commanding. Maybe correct procedure, but very bad form. I see both sides here did their part to achieve this epic fail.

    I understand police have to enforce every law, I get it that a traffic stop can be very dangerous, I am sympathetic to the police wanting absolute control over every encounter for their safety and the citizen's as well. I think citizens should cooperate. Blah, blah, blah. But when a little finesse is needed to get the job done, a little finesse should be offered. This whole thing got out of control because the passenger was obviously radicalized (thanx Jesse, thanx Al), probably freaked out from the whole Ferguson thing, and the officers were their usual power-trip selves. No donut!
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 16,920 Senior Member
    As usual Horse...you're full of yourself. The idiot in the passenger seat controlled the outcome of this stop from start to finish..could have been over and done with in a few minutes.....but NOOOOOOOOO....Mr. Dumbass has to do the smug "Help, Help I'm being repressed" routine....

    I frequently ask myself "Do these people live in a different dimension?" when I see stuff like this.

    What did this idiot THINK was going to happen? Who doesn't carry an ID? (Actually, I would like to see this guys criminal history).....

    I find that the tone of a traffic stop is all about attitude....I am always pleasant and respectful when I approach folks....it can stay pleasant and respectful or it can go downhill from there...completely up to them....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,738 Senior Member
    If they thought he was reaching for a gun, and he did reach into his backpack (didn't he?) they did the right thing by intervening before he pulled it. If they knocked out the window for COC Contempt of Cop, then they were wrong. Impossible to tell from what I've seen.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 11,150 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »

    What did this idiot THINK was going to happen? Who doesn't carry an ID? (Actually, I would like to see this guys criminal history).....

    From what I inferred from the story, his license was confiscated for driving without insurance. He was reaching in his bag to get the citation, then held it up to the window.

    If it was a lawful order to get out of the car, then he was in the wrong. Did it rise to the point of breaking property and applying less lethal (not non-lethal. Tasers can and have killed) force? Not sure.

    But this guy could have smiled and complied, and been on his way.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    I wonder if Safelite and their insurance will cover the window? :roll2::roll2:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,093 Senior Member
    I have no problem with the cop's actions. During a traffic stop, as a civilian, I've found the BEST response is "yes sir/ma'am/officer"

    If I have a problem with what the cop did, I'll take it up with his superior later. DURING the stop, the cop's holding ALL the aces.
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 10,914 Senior Member
    So if you decide you dont want to listen to the police they are supposed to just say ok have a nice day?
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,093 Senior Member
    Diver43 wrote: »
    So if you decide you dont want to listen to the police they are supposed to just say ok have a nice day?
    Me?

    Not hardly, and I'm curious what in my post makes you think that :uhm: :confused:
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,738 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    From what I inferred from the story, his license was confiscated for driving without insurance. He was reaching in his bag to get the citation, then held it up to the window.

    If it was a lawful order to get out of the car, then he was in the wrong. Did it rise to the point of breaking property and applying less lethal (not non-lethal. Tasers can and have killed) force? Not sure.

    But this guy could have smiled and complied, and been on his way.

    Tasers cannot kill and have never killed anyone. People have died after being tased, but not from the effects of the Taser. People have died after being handcuffed, too. But they're a lot less than lethal.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • RazorbackerRazorbacker Senior Member Posts: 4,646 Senior Member
    If a guy with a gun and a badge tells you to do something. The best course of action is to do it. You can make a stink later if you want but if he makes up his mind you're getting out of the car then you ARE
    coming out of that car even if he has to call 50 of his closest friends for help. And then you've got a slew of add on charges. I'm not excusing cop misconduct but I live in the real world.

    I suspect Ferguson, MO and Obama and Holder's involvement helped enable this. Look for more in the future.
    Teach your children to love guns, they'll never be able to afford drugs
  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,249 Senior Member
    Stupid is as stupid does. When an officer of the law asks to see your ID, even if he is being a gigantic jackwagon, show him your Id. Deal with the jackwagon part later. With his boss.
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,713 Senior Member
    Is it out of line to request a supervisor or another black and white to show up. What would the harm be of making the call and waiting? Seems a bit excessive for a seat belt.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,738 Senior Member
    I think one of the deputies WAS a supervisor. How about asking for the Chief? If you let the suspect run the stop, you've lost control.

    Anyway, it wasn't because of the seatbelt. From my understanding, it's because he refused a lawful order and reached into his backpack. Law here is you have an ID, you have to show it, especially if you've committed a crime or an offense.

    Edited to add: having dealt with a bunch of suspects and prisoners, I find they are manipulators. They get "points" by making LEOs do what they want. They are subtle, sometimes, and the least thing they can get a cop to do, it's a score for them. I won't play that game. Not saying I would or would not break out the window and Tase the guy, I wasn't there, but IMO a perp gets a certain amount of time to play around and then the game changes.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 10,914 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    Me?

    Not hardly, and I'm curious what in my post makes you think that :uhm: :confused:

    not you knite, just a general statement
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,093 Senior Member
    Oh, okay :beer:
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 16,920 Senior Member
    Buford wrote: »
    Is it out of line to request a supervisor or another black and white to show up. What would the harm be of making the call and waiting? Seems a bit excessive for a seat belt.

    Geez Buford...it looked like there were four or five cars there already....:tooth: There was already a supervisor on the scene...should they have called the Chief...there's just no pleasing some folks...

    At the point of the window-smashing and tasing, it was no longer about a seat belt....

    OOPS! Gene beat me to it....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,713 Senior Member
    Never mind I didn't notice the blue link. :conehead: I thought this was a one on one encounter. The guy was dumber than a rock.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,258 Senior Member
    Guns, sticks, Tasers, beanbags, OC, firm - and occasionally harsh - language . . . all bestowed to the police by the taxpayer (that would be us) based on the reality that you can get farther with a kind word and one of the above than with a kind word alone.

    On a traffic stop, a cop doesn't know the stop-ee from Adam, and when the stop-ee decides to get belligerent or weird, the officer HAS TO ratchet up their DefCon level in the interest of keeping themselves, partners, and the surrounding citizens safe. Yes, this has and will continue to result in unfortunate outcomes, but an officer can only handle with kid gloves to a point before they themselves are at unreasonable risk. Like Snake says, the police need to have SOME authority. To some degree, it has to be publicly known that mouthing off to the defenders of the public trust can be hazardous to your physical well-being.

    I think the age of videophones is probably going to make matters worse rather than better. A lot of buttheads are thinking that since they're on video, they'll be perfectly safe taunting people who carry guns for a living. There will be plenty of times where that doesn't end well - for anybody; not for the idiot who initiated the confrontation, not for the cop who has to live with the outcome, and not for the community, which will undoubtedly be divided between the camps of "Jamal was always such a GOOD boy" and "Taser? That idiot should have been SHOT - and a lot sooner than he was!"
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • HappySquidHappySquid Member Posts: 380 Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    Guns, sticks, Tasers, beanbags, OC, firm - and occasionally harsh - language . . . all bestowed to the police by the taxpayer (that would be us) based on the reality that you can get farther with a kind word and one of the above than with a kind word alone.

    On a traffic stop, a cop doesn't know the stop-ee from Adam, and when the stop-ee decides to get belligerent or weird, the officer HAS TO ratchet up their DefCon level in the interest of keeping themselves, partners, and the surrounding citizens safe. Yes, this has and will continue to result in unfortunate outcomes, but an officer can only handle with kid gloves to a point before they themselves are at unreasonable risk. Like Snake says, the police need to have SOME authority. To some degree, it has to be publicly known that mouthing off to the defenders of the public trust can be hazardous to your physical well-being.

    I think the age of videophones is probably going to make matters worse rather than better. A lot of buttheads are thinking that since they're on video, they'll be perfectly safe taunting people who carry guns for a living. There will be plenty of times where that doesn't end well - for anybody; not for the idiot who initiated the confrontation, not for the cop who has to live with the outcome, and not for the community, which will undoubtedly be divided between the camps of "Jamal was always such a GOOD boy" and "Taser? That idiot should have been SHOT - and a lot sooner than he was!"

    Amen!
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Kinda makes you wish someone like Frank Hamer or the real Lone Wolf (Gonazaullas) had of stopped some of these punks.........if they didn't shoot them I'll bet they would have taught them to show some respect.

    Or Charles Askins, Bill Jordan and Skeeter Skelton would have too!

    https://www.google.com/search?q=texas+ranger+lone+wolf+gonzaullas&client=firefox-a&hs=4Sd&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=hr02VMC6EtO9ggSlg4Aw&ved=0CB8QsAQ&biw=1067&bih=445
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Gotta love the moaxes that begin by refusing ID to a LEO for constapational reasons.
    Most people that get snarky with a LEO get richly rewarded, in the past I had been pulled over for speeding, then ID, nagged a bit, no ticket, and parted freinds. Act like Horse southbound end, expect to get treated like one.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    I am NOT anti LEO contrary to what some LEOs/EX/Retired might think.

    I appreciate what 99% of them do day in and day out. Sometimes they have to be reminded they work for US, We The People.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,395 Senior Member
    Didn't watch the video again, but, if the cop was pissed because the passenger didn't hand him an I.D. card, picture or otherwise, then the cop was out of bounds. Unless you're driving, operating a boat, CCWing, or a few other activities, then there is NO LAW REQUIRING YOU TO CARRY I.D., period. SCOTUS has said so on numerous occasions. If you aren't carrying I.D., then it can be a hassle, but any cop that doesn't know that an I.D. is not required is either ignorant of the law, or lying if he says you do need one and gives you grief about not having one.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Two years ago, I was walking near my apartment, had no ID etc, and Sheriffs deputies asked me for ID, I did however give them my stats for the computer.

    Some time goes by and a female deputy informs me that I do not exist, 30 minutes later, the deputy apologizes and shakes my hand, as I am walking away, the deputy calls me back and asks me to look at the computer screen and it is showing lots of red confusing symbols, and she tells me she cant clear it.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
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