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Hammond police sued over use of Taser during traffic stop

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  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,394 Senior Member
    Diver43 wrote: »
    The only thing that I fault the officer for is calling the man Dumb ^$$. It was a legitimate traffic stop and when asked for ID he told cop he didnt have it. When cop asked him to exit the vehicle he put up the window and locked the door. If he had ID in his bad all he had to do was hand it to the police officer and they might have gotten a ticket for failure to wear seatbelts

    I won't even fault the officer for calling him what he is. What I said in my post above doesn't relate to this case so much. I was just talking about if the cop is inappropriate. But I don't believe this cop was. I think he gave the DA every chance to comply. Most of the time, if you cooperate they'll give you a warning and send you on your marry way, But when you smart mouth them they don't like it. Not to say,as I pointed out above, that some cops won't act inappropriate. There's a bad apple in every barrel. But good or bad, acting like an ass won't help.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 16,926 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    Didn't watch the video again, but, if the cop was pissed because the passenger didn't hand him an I.D. card, picture or otherwise, then the cop was out of bounds. Unless you're driving, operating a boat, CCWing, or a few other activities, then there is NO LAW REQUIRING YOU TO CARRY I.D., period. SCOTUS has said so on numerous occasions. If you aren't carrying I.D., then it can be a hassle, but any cop that doesn't know that an I.D. is not required is either ignorant of the law, or lying if he says you do need one and gives you grief about not having one.

    This is true....but.....it sure does make it inconvenient for everyone involved if I have to find out who you are...cause neither of us are going anywhere until I do...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,398 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    This is true....but.....it sure does make it inconvenient for everyone involved if I have to find out who you are...cause neither of us are going anywhere until I do...

    Gonna be fun at a beach, then. Nowhere to put a photo I.D. in them 'swimmin' britches' the guys and gals wear to the beach! :rotflmao:

    Seriously, once one has given their name, and spelled it, if required, then that is the extent one should have to go to to identify themselves. And that is what the law in most states says. Anything beyond that should require probable cause, and 'contempt of cop' for not 'showing your papers' doesn't cross that threshold. The officers have computers tied to databases; the name can be typed in to gain that information, or given over radio if a computer is not available. Taking it to the absurd, the kids in the back of the vehicle should have been snatched out of the vehicle and given a grilling for not 'showing their papers', and the cops reprimanded for not doing so. It HAS happened in other countries not all that long ago.

    And the question neither asked nor answered is why were they questioning him in the first place? The car was pulled over for a seat belt violation. The operator of the vehicle, sitting behind the wheel, is the one who is cited for the infraction. Questioning anyone else inside the vehicle is just a fishing trip lacking any probable cause. Unless there is some other violation of the law plainly visible through the windows, then the passengers are not legally involved.

    If they are suing partly on 4th Amendment grounds, and maybe 5th Amendment violation, then I'd say that they have a good chance of winning the case.

    Taking it to even further absurdity on seat belt laws, why are they required for private vehicles, but government owned vehicles in the form of school buses are exempt? Who are the mouth breathing, drooling, hit every branch twice falling out of the Stupid Tree idiots that came up with that? And where are the booster seats for the little kids? Another exemption for the government!
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
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  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,742 Senior Member
    You don't need "probable cause" to ask questions. Probable Cause brings the stop up a whole bunch of degrees. How many "wanted" people does that guy look like? Was the car in a suspicious place or exhibiting suspicious behavior? Doesn't say, but cops are generally not inclined to stop cars for no reason, and especially a supervisor getting involved.

    It was a viable stop, although I think the cops probably did stop them for another suspicion. Fishing? Maybe. In GA, you're not LEGALLY required to carry an ID, but if you do (and just about anyone over the age of 14 does) you have to show it. Not having an ID is suspicious, though it doesn't rise to Probable Cause for any action. Rolling up a window probably does rise to Probable Cause. Kinda like running when you see a cop. It's maybe legal, and SCOTUS has ruled it's probable cause to pursue, but it's stupid. I think rolling up a window after acting like you've got something to hide will get you a trip downtown for one reason or another.

    As for seatbelts on school buses, imagine trying to enforce seat belt rules over 30 kids and drive the bus at the same time. Here, back seat passengers aren't required to wear seatbelts. Anyway, school buses are very robust. Had one here that was hit almost head-on at speed, killed the driver of the truck that hit it, barely injured the bus driver and didn't injure a single kid.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,398 Senior Member
    Gene, the original reason for the stop was for not using their seat belt(s). That is the ONLY reason for the original stop. His drivers license had been previously revoked, and may have been his only photo I.D. What do you expect him to do when asked for one, squat and pinch one out?

    You are right; cops don't need probable cause to ask questions, and after giving name, rank, and serial #, a citizen can refuse to answer them and invoke their 5th Amendment right. At that point if the citizen has any brains, the conversation will be very one sided.

    And you don't need a photo I.D. for walking down the street or riding as a passenger in a vehicle, or many other things. If it were a requirement, then there would be no fuss about showing one to vote, now would there?

    If they drag you out of the car for not answering questions at that point, then they are nothing more than common thugs, and if they handcuff you and remove your wallet, then I'd say that looks like strong arm robbery and robbery under color of law.

    And your excuse of "it's too much trouble to have seat belts in buses" doesn't wash. That's just another way of the government saying "Do as I say, not as I do. I am the government and above the law."

    And for every bus accident you post where no one was injured, I can post three where victims were ejected, and some even rolled over by the bus.
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    ― Douglas Adams
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,742 Senior Member
    You have no idea of what you're talking about. Interference with an officer is a crime. Refusing to roll down a window is interfernce.

    Ignorance is an excuse, but not a good excuse. Can you cite an example where seatbelts on a school bus made a difference? Post three, as you stated. Get real.

    You're trying to insert government interference where none is even implied. Where in the USA are seatbelts required in school buses?
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    Mike, you're wasting your breath on Captain Obvious. He and all his cronies have to be careful about crossing their local lakes, so they don't get run down by speeding bass boats!
    :roll2:
    Jerry
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,398 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    You have no idea of what you're talking about. Interference with an officer is a crime. Refusing to roll down a window is interfernce.

    Ignorance is an excuse, but not a good excuse. Can you cite an example where seatbelts on a school bus made a difference? Post three, as you stated. Get real.

    You're trying to insert government interference where none is even implied. Where in the USA are seatbelts required in school buses?

    At no time did I say that school buses had seat belts. Reading is fundamental, but because one can read does not mean that understanding is achieved. Reading comprehension is a learned skill; one at which you are failing.

    WHAT I SAID:

    "And for every bus accident you post where no one was injured, I can post three where victims were ejected, and some even rolled over by the bus."

    Show me anywhere in that sentence where I mentioned school buses with seat belts. I'm waiting, but not holding my breath. It isn't there, Gene. You made it up in your mind and put words in my post that are totally lacking in existence.

    As a passenger in a motor vehicle, refusing to roll down one's window is a crime? Quote chapter and verse on that one. That sounds like a load of wolf cookies. They had no reason to hassle the passenger. The stop was for a seat belt violation! That is a citation for the driver, not the passenger. The cops escalated the situation from the start approaching the vehicle with gun drawn.

    And answer the danged question! His license and been revoked (read confiscated), and was probably his only photo I.D. So I ask again, DO YOU EXPECT HIM TO SQUAT AND PINCH OFF A NEW PHOTO I.D. ON DEMAND?
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,713 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    Ignorance is an excuse, but not a good excuse. Can you cite an example where seatbelts on a school bus made a difference? Post three, as you stated. Get real.

    I found 6 according to these people.
    NHTSA
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,742 Senior Member
    And these six are? NHTSA is not law. I'm not even sure what it stands for. Sounds like a legal thing to me.

    Refusing to cooperate with LEO in a lawful order is stupid, and resulted in a broken window and a TASERing. Is this worth the result? I don't think so. There will likely be a lot of cost in lawyer bills with no legal satisfaction award. The guy got TASERed and busted. To hell with him. I seriously doubt any money will be awarded (even in this litigious society) will be awarded. The guy was an ass hole. Interference. He bought into the legal system, apparently with the definitions of tenmike and Teach, notable legal scholars who have a lot of legal experience.

    Well, perhaps not LEGAL scholars with limited legal experiecnce, but well... whatever. I think Teach's brother got an accused child molester off by aggressively attacking the accuser. Which somehow makes him an expert. Something to be proud of.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 16,926 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    Seriously, once one has given their name, and spelled it, if required, then that is the extent one should have to go to to identify themselves. And that is what the law in most states says.

    Well, hang in there a minute Mike

    There are at least 21 states that have Stop and Identify Statutes....(Indiana is one of those states) which means you as a private citizen are OBLIGATED to identify yourself. In some of those states, LEOs are authorized to detain persons and request such persons to identify themselves, and arrest them if they do not. So you need to know the laws where YOU live and can't apply them to the nation as a whole....

    And...we don't have beaches in Kansas...

    I fail to see how this is so hard to understand...this was NOT about the seatbelt...that was one issue. The passengers refusal to ID himself was ANOTHER issue...Should it have been discovered that the guy had an outstanding warrant...that would have been yet ANOTHER issue...one seemingly minor thing often leads to a multitude of other things distinctly unrelated to the original thing.
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,713 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    And these six are? NHTSA is not law. I'm not even sure what it stands for. Sounds like a legal thing to me.
    Google is free.
    National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    And these six are? NHTSA is not law. I'm not even sure what it stands for. Sounds like a legal thing to me.

    Refusing to cooperate with LEO in a lawful order is stupid, and resulted in a broken window and a TASERing. Is this worth the result? I don't think so. There will likely be a lot of cost in lawyer bills with no legal satisfaction award. The guy got TASERed and busted. To hell with him. I seriously doubt any money will be awarded (even in this litigious society) will be awarded. The guy was an ass hole. Interference. He bought into the legal system, apparently with the definitions of tenmike and Teach, notable legal scholars who have a lot of legal experience.

    Well, perhaps not LEGAL scholars with limited legal experiecnce, but well... whatever. I think Teach's brother got an accused child molester off by aggressively attacking the accuser. Which somehow makes him an expert. Something to be proud of.


    You sure you want to Tango with so many people at once ?
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,398 Senior Member
    Here's a few links to 'stop and identify' states and statutes.
    BTW 29 states do not require identifying when asked. 29>21 which equals most. It's a glass half full thing.

    http://www.copblock.org/28042/let-me-see-your-i-d/

    http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display_arch&article_id=1150&issue_id=42007

    stop and identify statutes, by state

    http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_sto_and_ide_sta_sta_wit_quo_and_ide_sta-stop-identify-statutes-states-quot

    Could find only a couple of states that required carrying of I.D. and they were border states with Mexico.
    Georgia is one of the states that NO NOT require the carrying of I.D. one one's person, and there is no criminal statute for failing to carry I.D.


    SO, the questions I've asked about not producing I.D. on demand, especially when one does NOT HAVE IN THEIR POSSESSION said I.D. have gone unanswered. This leads me to believe that any detention or arrest due to not producing I.D. on demand is questionable at best, illegal at worst.

    And there are literally millions of school children running around without their "papers" every day. Time for the cops to get busy and throw them in jail for not producing their "identification documents" on demand. Just think of all the money they'd rake in on that!
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    ― Douglas Adams
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    ID, I don't need no stinkin ID.................:tooth:

    Gene, I'll bet folks had a memorable experience when you pulled them over. :jester:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,742 Senior Member
    I didn't work traffic enough to pull many people over. I never had to tangle with anyone I pulled over in the limited time I was uniformed. Maybe it was because people were less stupid than many of them are today.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,398 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    And...we don't have beaches in Kansas...

    :nono: Don't make me post pictures of the Acorns Resort and a few others, including one nudist resort :yikes:, in Kansas. There's quite a few beaches, actually. And girls in bikinis. Ocean beaches, no, but lake and river beaches are pretty common from what my Google search turned up. :tooth:
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 16,926 Senior Member
    After living in Michigan, Florida and Alabama........there ain't no beaches in Kansas....there are beach-like areas at some of the holes that were gouged out of the prairie and filled with water......but there ain't no beaches....:jester:
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • Farm Boy DeuceFarm Boy Deuce Senior Member Posts: 6,083 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    After living in Michigan, Florida and Alabama........there ain't no beaches in Kansas....there are beach-like areas at some of the holes that were gouged out of the prairie and filled with water......but there ain't no beaches....:jester:

    Them new underoos got you feeling your oats?
    I am afraid we forget sometime that the basic and simple things brings us the most pleasure.
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  • gatorgator Senior Member Posts: 1,746 Senior Member
    As far as seatbelts on school busses go, it is a liability thing........if the bus has seatbelts on it then all the passengers will be required to wear them.......not possible for a bus driver to insure that.

    The district would have to hire a person to ride the bus just to monitor for seatbelt use.....very cost prohibitive.

    It would cost billions to equip all the existing school busses with seatbelts.....again, very cost prohibitive.

    School busses are absolutely the toughest vehicle on the highways and yes some kids get hurt or killed in bus accidents......however bus travel is still the safest way for students to get to and from school.

    I have been driving school bus for nineteen years......for the past seven have put over two hundred miles a day on my bus.......and have been involved in only accident..........while at a pupil stop on state route 60 a lady hit the hack of my bus at highway speed, even with the parking brake set she moved the bus 8 feet, major damage to her pick up as well as the back end of the bus but zero injuries to the thirteen children on the bus.......it was early in the route.

    I do agree that seatbelts would make busses safer........but there is no way their use could be enforced..........as a driver I do not want to see belt laws because I do not want to be charged with negligence should an accident happen and a child was hurt because he took his seatbelt off.
    USMC 80-84
    -96 lbs
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,742 Senior Member
    Gator has it absolutely right from the alligator's mouth. I heard of Fox News yesterday that school buses were 7 times stronger/safer than cars. I agree with this statement that was made in passing or at least I didn't catch the context in which it was said.

    No way to enforce seat belt wearing on a bus. I'm not even sure it's safer to wear them on a bus. I don't know of a state that requires this.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,861 Senior Member
    Depending on location, when your DL is revoked, it doesn't necessarily mean they physically take your DL from you for exactly this reason. I don't know if that's the case where this incident happened. Here, it's entered in the database that your DL is suspended or revoked and notes if there is an arrest clause or not. If you get caught driving on a revoked or suspended with no arrest clause, you get a ticket and have to go to court. If there is an arrest clause, you go to jail for driving on a suspended or revoked DL. Point is, it is possible that you can physically keep your DL to use as an ID, but you can't drive. Or, you can't get caught driving, anyway.....
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 16,926 Senior Member
    Back in my EMS days, I responded to a mass casualty accident in which one school bus rear-ended another...in all...nearly 100 kids went to the hospital...many with facial injuries from eating the seat back in front of them...I'm not convinced that some kind of automatic restraint system could not be devised...similar to an amusement park ride...interlocks would insure the bus could not move until all the restraints in the bus were locked.... That being said...I understand that this would increase the cost of school buses astronomically and would create a whole new set of problems in the event of an overturned bus
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • gatorgator Senior Member Posts: 1,746 Senior Member
    Were the bus seats the old kind with the metal grab bar or the newer fully padded seats?
    USMC 80-84
    -96 lbs
  • gatorgator Senior Member Posts: 1,746 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    ...I'm not convinced that some kind of automatic restraint system could not be devised...similar to an amusement park ride...interlocks would insure the bus could not move until all the restraints in the bus were locked....

    Great idea until the driver is incapacitated and the bus is on fire...or in the water.....
    USMC 80-84
    -96 lbs
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,713 Senior Member
    gator wrote: »
    I do agree that seatbelts would make busses safer........but there is no way their use could be enforced..........as a driver I do not want to see belt laws because I do not want to be charged with negligence should an accident happen and a child was hurt because he took his seatbelt off.

    But if it only saved one child? What if it was your child?
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • gatorgator Senior Member Posts: 1,746 Senior Member
    You do have a point...
    USMC 80-84
    -96 lbs
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    I do know it pays to be polite if stopped, especially if you CCW, I find it so and try to have a good attitude, I have reaped many rewards as fruits of a better attitude, no tickets even when I richly deserved them.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Buford wrote: »
    But if it only saved one child? What if it was your child?

    But if it saved only one Buford ? What if it was your Buford ?
    Do it for the Bufords !

    FIFY !

    :tooth: :jester: :jester:
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,713 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    But if it saved only one Buford ? What if it was your Buford ?
    Do it for the Bufords !

    FIFY !

    :tooth: :jester: :jester:
    If it only saved one Buford that is silly. Saving the Buford species on the other hand is pertinent to the survival of mankind.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
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