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While asleep . . . Where do you keep your SD weapon?

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  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 16,920 Senior Member
    Merlin wrote: »
    I have never understood the concept of "racking a round" with a pump shotgun. If someone is bold enough to attempt a break-in, it's likely the sound of a rack would not deter them, and would only alert them to your location. In real-life shooting scenario(s), it has also been proven, that "short racking" can happen, in a stressful situation. I do not have children in the house, so that's not a concern. If I had a shotgun for HD, I would keep one in the tube, tang safety....they can wait for the flash. I will "hunker down" in my bedroom, call 911, and leave the phone on. Leaving the phone on ensures a recording, in case it goes to court. I have a clear field of fire to my bedroom door.....I know the layout of my home....the BG doesn't. In any event....do what ya gotta. Stay Safe, my friends. (P.S. I, also would not choose to divulge WHAT I have, or IF I have weapons in my home).

    This has been the subject of much discussion here over the years....those folks that rely on the intimidation value of the cycling of a shotgun to scare off a bad guy have bought into a myth that was old when I was a kid. IMHO you have it worked out well....the only gun-related sound a home invader is gonna hear around here is "BOOM".
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • Elk creekElk creek Senior Member Posts: 6,450 Senior Member
    Simple, racking the shotgun is a function of loading it:jester: For me, my Dad and anyone else trained to fight with a pump shotgun the chamber is empty and the magazine is MINUS one of capacity. This way you can load a slug into the magazine, load, then top off the mag. "If your not shooting your loading" is the mantra at a combat shotgun. The beauty of a shotgun is versatility being able to switch from slugs and buckshot. If your mag is full you are stuck with what you loaded it with.....no problem most of time.
    Aim higher, or get a bigger gun.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,738 Senior Member
    We were taught not to rack the slide until you're just about ready to shoot. Not because of the intimidation factor, but for safety reasons. The same reason you don't cock a revolver.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • shawn1172shawn1172 Senior Member Posts: 588 Senior Member
    I keep plenty handy. Glock 9mm, 1911, .38 sp, and .357 revolvers are within reach without getting out of bed. So are reloads for each and flashlights. 3 steps out of bed and my hands are on my 12 ga 870, loaded with buckshot and 5 rounds of slugs on the stock. Various other guns throughout the house so I'm never far from one. No kids, just me and my girlfriend so they aren't locked up, just out of sight.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    We were taught not to rack the slide until you're just about ready to shoot. Not because of the intimidation factor, but for safety reasons. The same reason you don't cock a revolver.

    No disrespect, Gene, but I was taught that a chambered round in a pistol is the way you go. Cocking a revolver is totally different, due to the light trigger after being cocked, no flip safety, etc.

    For example, my 1911s are always kept "cocked & locked" (shell in the chamber, hammer back, safety on), and DA pistols like my Glocks or my Springfield XD, round chambered.

    When you say "we were taught" are you referring to military drills or LEO drills? Just wondering.

    Because for self defense / home defense, I was taught the opposite: chambered round, ready to fire.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,738 Senior Member
    LEO training. Shotguns, statistically, cause a lot of unintended discharges, and there's not a good reason to carry the gun loaded. It takes less than a second to chamber a pump shotgun round, and loaded shotguns and people and cops don't mix.

    If you load the gun, unless you shoot it (and that doesn't happen often) you've got to unload it. A simple matter for those of us who handle shotguns, but most cops do not handle shotguns. You don't want to put a loaded shotgun in your unit. And as crowds tend to gather in such situations and you unload your shotgun, you're waving a loaded gun toward the people, a potentially dangerous situation that leaves you vulnerable as you shuck the shells out. Unloading a pump gun is beyond the skill set of a LOT of cops.

    If you don't unload it, you put your shotgun loaded into your car, which you might not have access to while you're maybe transporting a prisoner or writing a report. Maybe some other officer is assigned to your car with a loaded shotgun behind his head on the gunrack.

    NYPD had issues with officers working the unfamiliar pump guns and they went to double barrel shotguns, point and shoot, not having to worry about the slide release, etc.

    A 1911 is of course carried cocked and locked. In the Army, we were taught to carry a .45 without one in the chamber. I don't know how it's done today.

    And a DA revolver in LEO training is never cocked into SA.

    The method of carrying a shotgun in LEO training is pretty much boilerplate.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Thanks for the clarification, Gene! That 'splains it just fine.

    LEOs of course have to consider specific rules that the general public isn't bound by.

    Later, dude.

    Oh, yeah... I've tried and tried to cock the shrouded hammer for my little compact .357 so I can be cool and powerful and scare people but somehow it just keeps flipping back down. I've put quite a few holes in the walls experimenting but I just had to give up. Something in the gun's specs that say "DA only" or whatever. I dunno... (ha ha)
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 11,150 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »

    NYPD had issues with officers working the unfamiliar pump guns and they went to double barrel shotguns, point and shoot, not having to worry about the slide release, etc.

    Total sidebar, but that is what we call "Solving a software problem with hardware."
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    LEO training. Shotguns, statistically, cause a lot of unintended discharges, and there's not a good reason to carry the gun loaded. It takes less than a second to chamber a pump shotgun round, and loaded shotguns and people and cops don't mix.

    If you load the gun, unless you shoot it (and that doesn't happen often) you've got to unload it. A simple matter for those of us who handle shotguns, but most cops do not handle shotguns. You don't want to put a loaded shotgun in your unit. And as crowds tend to gather in such situations and you unload your shotgun, you're waving a loaded gun toward the people, a potentially dangerous situation that leaves you vulnerable as you shuck the shells out. Unloading a pump gun is beyond the skill set of a LOT of cops.

    If you don't unload it, you put your shotgun loaded into your car, which you might not have access to while you're maybe transporting a prisoner or writing a report. Maybe some other officer is assigned to your car with a loaded shotgun behind his head on the gunrack.

    NYPD had issues with officers working the unfamiliar pump guns and they went to double barrel shotguns, point and shoot, not having to worry about the slide release, etc.

    A 1911 is of course carried cocked and locked. In the Army, we were taught to carry a .45 without one in the chamber. I don't know how it's done today.

    And a DA revolver in LEO training is never cocked into SA.

    The method of carrying a shotgun in LEO training is pretty much boilerplate.

    I was taught the same standard practice in LE training, lots of NDs taking a shotgun out of an unmarked or marked vehicles arms rack, I have always carried a shotgun that way.

    Now as far as racking a slide, I would not teach anyone else to rack a slide, however, I will not tell a lie, I have done it, foolish or not, one fine Sunday morning not mush more than 2 years ago, around 6am when I worked / lived at the service station, (fuel & repairs) I heard a motor cranking, nobody was scheduled to do anything, by that time I had it made clear to call Me or let Me know ahead of time, if anyone was going to do anything or stop by on days we were not open.

    I grab My shotgun chamber empty of course and have it held low as there were vans and trucks providing cover and I find this cat I do not know trying to start a car, so the best thing I can think of is to stupidly rack the slide, so I dood it, after racking it, I did not point the 870 at the guy or let him see it, I pointed it down and kept it alongside and behind My leg pointed at the ground and out of sight.

    I was behind him with a panel truck for cover too.

    It sure had the intended effect, the guy knew exactly what that sound was and confessed he had pooped himself and needed a change of underwear after a shower etc.... it turned out to be a customer trying to take his car without payment, his confession.
    Mayhap it taint the best-est move, but I confess to having done it and stupid or not, it had the intended effect each time I ever did it.

    Again, I do NOT advocate such a fool move, however, it works AFAIK in any case, I can say there are times I would definitely would not do it.

    An Uncle of mine also had a few accounts of people trying keys at his apartment locks or at his fire escape trying to pry open a window and he racked the shotguns slide to good effect each time, your mileage / results may vary of course.

    Now there are times besides dialing 911, that people are doing stuff that may not warrant shoosting them or leaving the relative safety of a locked home, when racking a shotgun slide may seem to be the best way to give off the message that you are prepared to stand & deliver.

    My Uncle would do that with no ammo loaded in the shotguns magazine tube, and he claimed they (the alleged bad guys) always lit out as if their pants were on fire.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • HvyMaxHvyMax Senior Member Posts: 1,786 Senior Member
    I usually thumb the hammer on my pistols (that's what God put it there for)carried hammer down. That way I get the nice SA trigger pull. Also works with SA semi's just fine for hammer down carry. Of course I grew up on SA revolvers.
    Wal Mart where the discriminating white trash shop.
    Paddle faster!!! I hear banjos.
    Reason for editing: correcting my auto correct
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,738 Senior Member
    With a SA semi, with the hammer down, zero safeties are working. A bump away from an unintentional discharge.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    I learned to shoot handguns via my Dad's 1911. May as well start at the top, eh? (ha ha)

    I've said this before but I am quite limited in my mobility (I use a damn walker) due to degenerative osteoarthritis so I can't do the tactical shooting stuff. And I don't shoot long guns anymore nor do I shoot long distance handguns. So it's all handguns at the 50-foot indoor range for me, out of the limits on my mobility.

    So I try to mollify this by practicing at the very friendly range by using various stances and grips and guns. I say friendly because the range guys let me "bend" the rules -- I've been shooting there for years and usually go there during off-hours.

    Anyway, I normally take 2 guns, always a 1911 and then maybe my DA Springfield XD or a Glock, or maybe my Ruger 4" .357 or my snubbie shrouded hammer .357. I'll shoot maybe 5 rounds with one gun, switch to the other for 5, switch back.

    And I also vary hands. I'm a natural lefty but had a bad accident some years ago, had my left shoulder rebuilt, so I shot right-side for months till I healed. Now I'm still better as a natural lefty but I'm about 80-90% as good righthanded. Nothing special in the "talent" zone -- just lots of practice. I also alternate 1-hand and 2-hand.

    So... during a typical range session I'll shoot L/R, 1/2 handed, SA and then DA, maybe also pistol vs revolver. I mix 'em up so that I am pretty good with quickly picking up whichever handgun and hitting the target fairly accurately and with reasonable quickness.

    I try to avoid getting stuck in a rut and only shooting one type of handgun. I'm not in competition after all, I'm just practicing self defense. So I try to remain as flexible with my handgun shooting, so I can pick up whichever gun is nearby and shoot it with okay success.

    And in this process, when I'm shooting my DA/SA Ruger .357 I vary between cocked and not cocked, too.

    I don't necessarily recommend this to anyone, the idea of switching out the handguns and stances and grips and so on. I enjoy it because it gives me variety when in that darn restrictive booth and isn't nearly as boring as shooting the same weapon for 2 hours. Works for me, because I may keep a .357 or 1911 or XD or Glock here and there in the apartment or car, and being able to quickly switch gears is kinda fun, too. I'm of course not saying that I'm any good at this tactic -- I'm probably the worst handgun shooter on the forum. But I enjoy the variety nonetheless.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,394 Senior Member
    One big problem with plans when many people (Like over 5) are involved, is that not everybody pays attention and does what they're supposed to do. Like the Maginot line, War Plan Orange in the Philippines at the beginning of World War II was well thought out and if everything had gone as to plan things there may have ended much differently.

    The plan in a nutshell called for taking all the food, medicine, and ammo down the Peninsula to Mariveles at the tip. Then as the Japanese advanced, the Fil-Am Troops were to fight a retreating campaign down the peninsula making the Japanese pay dearly for every inch. The terrain there was so mountainous and rocky that the Japanese had their hands full even defensively, much less trying to advance. The defenders of Bataan did this and made the Japanese pay dearly, but where they failed was getting the stores and supplies onto the peninsula and behind there lines. It is said that they had enough rice and medicine to hold out for as long as 5 years and also a lot of ammo too, but carelessly let most of it fall into the advancing Japanese hands, either that or it was forgotten in their haste to retreat to the Peninsula without getting these vast and valuable stores behind our lines on Bataan. Somebody dropped the ball big time. The basic plan was a good one. The Americans and Filipinos gave a very good account of themselves and thus was one of the reasons their captors treated them so badly. But the key here was somebody didn't do as the plan called for and after about 4 months the FIL-Am troops were starving and sick and almost out of ammo.

    Oh yeah and that little matter of letting the Japanese wipe out the air force as all the planes were on the ground lined up which made great targets. So a repeat of what had happen to the air defenses in Hawaii happened in the Philippines not 24 hours later, another monumental failure of carrying out the plan.

    So, the moral of this story is everyone must do as the plan calls for or it will not work. And like I mentioned, the more people involved the greater the chance of failure.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,394 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    No disrespect, Gene, but I was taught that a chambered round in a pistol is the way you go. Cocking a revolver is totally different, due to the light trigger after being cocked, no flip safety, etc.

    For example, my 1911s are always kept "cocked & locked" (shell in the chamber, hammer back, safety on), and DA pistols like my Glocks or my Springfield XD, round chambered.

    When you say "we were taught" are you referring to military drills or LEO drills? Just wondering.

    Because for self defense / home defense, I was taught the opposite: chambered round, ready to fire.

    I figure it depends on the gun. My S&W 9mm can be cocked and on Safety if I really feel threatened, But I can pull the slide back and chamber a round fast enough for most situations. and besides, the damn thing is almost impossible to cock any other way than pulling the slide back because it has a very small hammer spur. With the hammer down it's safe because it has a half cock safety, but then you're in double action mode and its trigger is super hard in double action. So I just keep it with the barrel clear and hammer down, and rack the slide back when needed which cocks the hammer and puts it ready to fire in single action mode.

    Now my 1911 is a different story. It is designed to be carried cocked and locked. But here in the house I leave it with the barrel clear and do the same with it when needed. I've practiced with both the 9 and the 1911 racking the slide back and I'm about as fast as I need to be doing that. But that's just me. Right or wrong, I figure I have more chance of shooting myself than a BG doing it so I go the safest way possible.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    All-righty then...... :yikes: :yikes: :yikes: :yikes:

    Truly the scary road most traveled to perdition.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 16,920 Senior Member
    I've got an acquaintance who is so uncomfortable with carrying with a round in the chamber (he carries a 9mm Kahr) he's convinced himself that he will always have time to run the slide if he finds himself in a pickle. Sooooo ...he CCWs with a full magazine and an empty chamber...He's one of those guys that knows everything, too experienced (lazy) to train and unless he thinks of it it's not worthy of consideration so he's good to go walking around with an unloaded gun....Considering the crime-ridden pesthole he lives in....the chances are fairly high he'll get an education...hope he survives the experience...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,738 Senior Member
    What kind of Smith 9mm, Snake?
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    I've got an acquaintance who is so uncomfortable with carrying with a round in the chamber etc...

    As Gene and others state, sometimes it's policy of your bosses (LEOs or military) to not have a chambered round but for any modern pistol, there is essentially zero (or close to zero) chance of an AD resulting from that round. If the pistol is unreliable (some cheapie guns DO go off if dropped) then you better switch guns quick. But for any well designed and undamaged pistol, that round in the chamber simply won't be going off. Modern well-made guns are shock tested all the time.

    I've got zero concerns about having my XD loaded w. chambered round, nor my 1911s nor my Glocks. I simply won't own a weapon that's not reliably manufactured and safe to have. I do suppose that an AD might occur in some faint era or distant galaxy but not in my house.

    Those who are concerned about keeping a chambered round? Well, each to his own. With me, I'm fine.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    The only weapon I was taught to have an empty chamber was shotguns, a tradition I have kept, handguns are carried with a round chambered, revolvers are a great option for folks fearing semi autos with a live chamber.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Shotguns, such as in the field while hunting, absolutely unloaded till you're on your mark or in your free-fire zone. Totally correct and properly safe.

    Handguns for self defense? Loaded and ready when they're "on station".
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 16,920 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    revolvers are a great option for folks fearing semi autos with a live chamber.

    ...and too stupid to understand that there's really not a lick of difference.....

    and while I understand the rationale behind keeping an empty chamber in a patrol rifle or shotgun...we're talking about a home defense weapon....some may want to keep that shotguns chamber empty for a variety of reasons...children about the house, etc... however, there are two adults in this home...all the adults (including those visiting adults) understand that all the home defense firearms in this house are loaded and ready for use (this pollicy changes when grandkids visit) ... there simply is not a single simple answer for everyone's situation.
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    That is why it is a unfounded fear or perhaps even a phobia, fear of a live round chambered, do you know how many older LEOs I have encountered carrying modern revolvers with an empty cylinder space under the hammer of a S&W model 10 ? Plenty, and it took much convincing to get them to change.

    Lots of people have not learned about firearms in a structured learning environment like a police academy or military training etc... Daddy or Uncle / Auntie Griselda might have taught them more than a few incorrect notions left over from the gay 90s or perhaps even the civil war.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    There is one small difference between a revolver and a semi auto, and that is the unloading procedure, you simply open the cylinder on a revolver and it is perceived to be less scary for most humans as opposed to extracting a live round from a semiautomatics chamber.

    In reality, it should be no more hazardous to unload the chamber of a semiautomatic firearm as a revolver, however, in practice, an unloading safety station is available in many facilities, and even with those safety stations, sometimes nerves are shattered to the sound of a negligent weapon discharge as someone has forgotten basic firearms safety rules.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    ...and too stupid to understand that there's really not a lick of difference.....

    etc

    I realize that the snappy comment wasn't directed to Doc but to many who aren't cognizant of how safe modern firearms are.

    We see bad TV shows or maybe old cowboy shows that show the gun "going off" when dropped, and people simply believe this. Or, as Doc correctly says, Granddad or someone else taught you certain rules of firearm safety and you're stuck in the past a bit, doing things that simply aren't necessary these days.

    Which has spurred me to start a new trivia thread in the Clubhouse, stuff you were taught but simply is no longer valid.

    Anyway, we read occasionally about guns that DO go off when dropped. These are nearly always junk guns, cheaply made to begin with, then poorly maintained and parts worn, so that the shabby original workmanship "leaks through" and renders the gun unsafe, and when dropped, it indeed does go off. Stuff happens.

    But modern, properly maintained handguns? Ain't gonna happen. And although Doc has in the past (as well as others) remarked that for older folks or those with minimal training, maybe a decent quality DA revolver is best, just for simplicity, the idea that a revolver is inherently less prone to AD than a pistol is no longer valid.

    At least that's how I see it. I could be wrong on this, often am.

    Good commentary, gang!
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 16,920 Senior Member
    Weapons skills vary....I daresay that there are a lot of people whose first experience with a firearm nowadays was their CCW class and who remain uncomfortable with their firearms....though you'll not find many that will admit it. Which leads us to a discussion of qualification vs training. IMHO there is a lot more to owning a firearm than being able to hit a paper plate at 21 feet in a controlled range environment and being able to recite the safety rules....a person with well-honed weapons handling skills has the ability to apply those safety rules without actually thinking about it. When I see my acquaintance (mentioned previously) actually handle a firearm it's always an unsettling experience because his weapons handling skills suck. And before someone comes up with the idea that I have some responsibility to help him....remember that the term "You can teach 'em but you can't learn 'em" was invented about this guy - he already knows everything .......about everything... I'm sure that many of you have met the same person in a different guise...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Jay, our little bunch of shooting pals (from which sprung the fanciful "Montrose Beer & Gun Club") also had a couple of these "know it all" types. Most of us were pretty careful shooters, some of those types whom you can shoot with and nary blink an eye, because you know they are sensible and you can turn your back on them and feel confident.

    Naturally, our "Beer and Gun" club name is a spoof. We started our organization by meeting on a Saturday afternoon at Rudyard's British Pub in the "music & arts neartown neighborhood of Montrose", carpooling to the gun range, shooting, then going back to drink beer and brag about it.

    Teach has been to Rudyard's for lunch -- anybody passing thru Houston should give the pub a try, good food, friendly atmosphere, great beers on tap. Anyway...

    Our little informal group was about a dozen guys, not everyone per each weekend, but the "core membership" was steady. And yeah, two of the guys were of the type you mention. Not bad people necessarily but they simply would not or could not stick to sensible range safety rules.

    Typical of this might be the guy had fired his pistol, then, pistol still in hand, would turn toward you and say "do you think the safety is bent?" or "You try the gun, see if the trigger's too stiff" or whatever.

    Reasonable comments but you do NOT say this while waving the gun around. You of course lay it on the range table, muzzle downrange, then you ask the other guy to have a look. Duh.

    So eventually, we sort of "weaned" ourselves away from these guys, and simply stopped telling them when the next shoot was scheduled. After a couple months, they either got the message or forgot about the shoot totally (neither was exactly Rhodes scholar material).

    So yeah, I think those sort of guys are everywhere. Most of the time they get lucky and don't shoot themselves or anybody else. Sometimes not.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    I don't know why this incident occurred to me -- probably because we are chatting about general shooting safety, but I remember the most angry I've been reading about an "AD" (actually a "SD" -- stupid discharge)...

    One New Year's Eve this guy decided to celebrate by firing his pistol. Being cognizant of warnings to not fire into the air, he decided to put a 9mm round into a tree in his back yard. So he, his wife, and 9yr old daughter went out at midnight to observe this momentous event.

    Except that of course his probably cheap and poorly maintained pistol jammed. So frustrated at not being able to show off, they all went inside and the guy tried to unstick his jammed gun. Which of course, he did, putting the round straight into his daughter's head, killing her instantly.

    Being interviewed afterward, the guy said that the shooting was "God's Will" which made me furious. Don't you DARE imply that God had anything to do with your stupidity, you jerk! Still makes me fume when I think about it.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    WOW ! I am stunned and sorry that an innocent child paid the price for her fathers stupidity.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    WOW ! I am stunned and sorry that an innocent child paid the price for her fathers stupidity.

    It's been years and I still seethe at not only the stupidity of the shooting, but the vileness of the excuse.
  • KSDeputyKSDeputy Member Posts: 55 Member
    By my bed. After they get in after setting the alarm system off, and by the dog, I guess I will have to shoot them?
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