Civil Asset Forfiture

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Replies

  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »

    You both do not know what CAF actually is....
    Guilt until proven innocent, is what it is. Jack boots love their power. Forced seizure at the point of a gun, sounds like armed robbery to me. Continue to enjoy your illusion Gene. Keep telling yourself that cops are not stealing from citizens all over this country.
    It's because I hate Trump.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,466 Senior Member
    You have no idea, tubabucknut, of what you speak. Clearly, you've demonstrated you don't know the first thing about CAF. IN the first place, CAF has nothing to do with guilt or innocence. It's not a criminal thing, it's a civil process.

    "Jack-booted" thugs? What exactly does that mean? I've never seen a cop wearing a pair of jackboots in my life. You sound like Al Sharpton. I hope we don't see you chained to a barrel full of concrete any time soon.

    If you KNOW of any instances of cops stealing from the citizenry all over this country, film it, report it, or at least give examples here, but be specific.

    Here's a primer on CAF. You should at least generally know what you're talking about before you can make a logical argument, but I guess that won't stop you.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset_forfeiture

    Edited to remove offensive comment.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    :blah::blah::blah:It's against the asset not the individual:blah::blah::blah:They can get it back when they prove they didn't get it criminally:blah::blah::blah:seizure is not forfeiture:blah::blah::blah::blah:I'm still in my delusion:blah::blah::blah::blah:need to get boot polish on the way home:blah::blah::blah:
    It's because I hate Trump.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    The I-10 shakedowns by several Louisiana PD's have been documented rather well by Reader's Digest and several "60 Minutes" episodes for at least the past 10 years. "Nothing to see here- - - - -move along"- - - -It's old news, so why bother crying about it? Somebody's bound to be guilty. The county executive of one little Tennessee town west of Nashville on I-40 brags about how much her "boys" confiscate, and how big a chunk of the city's annual budget the seizures represent. All her cops drive brand new Dodge Chargers, or blacked-out flex fuel Suburbans, and they're decked out in all the latest ninja gear, so I guess the system pays off pretty handsomely.
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,466 Senior Member
    I can't speak to what happened in LA or TN. I do know in my areas seized assets do not go to individual PDs and certainly not to officers. The paper trail it would seem would make it almost impossible to get away with theft for any period of time. A few years back, a GA sheriff went to jail because he had FEMA equipment on his farm. So law-breaking is not impossible for LEOs, but the price paid for doing so it great. At least in GA.

    Local government corruption is looked at strongly by the FBI. They have a special unit to deal with elected officials who are wrong. They got the former gov of IL, who now sits in the joint. And I think the one before him.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,330 Senior Member
    Can we just agree that the cops are a bunch of lying pigs who violate the Constitution under the cover of the law, and get on with our lives?
    Overkill is underrated.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    Can we just agree that a few cops are a bunch of lying pigs who violate the Constitution under the cover of the law, and get on with our lives?

    FIFY!
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    :that:
    It's because I hate Trump.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,330 Senior Member
    Great, now the conversation becomes "how many is a few...." :roll:
    Overkill is underrated.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,466 Senior Member
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,330 Senior Member
    Only ones I've seen wearing boots like those are either on horseback or motorcycle.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,466 Senior Member
    The hob-nailed boots of the German Wehrmacht were assigned the title of "jack boots." I think this is what most people mean when they say "jack booted thugs."

    "The jackbooted thugs served a search warrant on my house abused my rights and confiscated all my cocaine."
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,330 Senior Member
    Oh, I know. My point was that not all police wear jack boots, and to say they wear 'em is unfair. Broad brush and all.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,292 Senior Member
    Well, a Google search tells a different story than what Gene is saying. Read both articles in their entirety. There's lots more juicy tidbits about civil forfeiture shenanigans.


    http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2014/03/law-enforcements-dependence-on-civil-asset-forfeiture-in-georgia-and-texas

    In Georgia, Fulton County district attorney Paul Howard spent $344,000 in state forfeiture funds between 2008 and 2012, including $2,700 on security doors for his house, $4,450 on football tickets, and $6,000 on a lawyers group that inducted him into its hall of fame.[5]
    Residents of Camden County, Georgia, voted sheriff Bill Smith out of office after it became public that he used seized assets to purchase a $90,000 sports car and a $79,000 boat and to hire inmates to work on his, his girlfriend’s, and his ex-wife’s private property, among other expenditures that benefitted him personally.[6]
    In March 2008, Joe Garza, the district attorney for Texas’s 79th Judicial District, was voted out of office in the wake of a public scandal regarding his use of forfeiture funds. An audit revealed that Garza distributed $1.1 million to three favored employees between 2004 and 2008 and that many others may have received improper payments for “car allowances, stipends, reimbursements, advances, audits, travel (including to casinos), contract labor and other seemingly illogical purposes.”[7]

    Even where it does not give rise to such egregious abuses of the public’s trust, forfeiture denies the public an opportunity to evaluate large expenditures by law enforcement. Recently, Harris County, Texas, sheriff Adrian Garcia announced that he wants to use forfeiture funds to outfit a Department of Defense surplus helicopter to the tune of $400,000 for initial outfitting and an additional $250,000 in annual expenditures thereafter. Harris County commissioner Jack Morman supported the idea, calling it “the perfect situation, where there is not any type of drain on the county’s general (fund.)”[8] It will, however, require more forfeiture revenue, and the fact remains that law enforcement is now poised to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars annually on a new helicopter without justifying that decision to the public.

    http://www.georgiapolicy.org/georgia-civil-asset-forfeiture-operates-largely-in-the-dark/

    The Institute for Justice report – “Rotten Reporting in the Peach State” — says in 2011 Georgia law enforcement agencies confiscated $2.76 million in personal property from persons who were not charged with a crime. About half of the property confiscated was worth less than $650, often cash. The exact value of all personal property confiscated by local law enforcement agencies is unknown because the majority of agencies did not file required state reports.

    Federal law also allows law enforcement agencies to seize personal property. The incentive is high because federal and local agencies share sale proceeds which were at least $32 million in 2011 in Georgia. Here is a summary of key points from the IJ report:

    “Reports filed by 58 law enforcement agencies as of July 2012 for the year 2011 reveal $2.76 million in forfeitures. Half of the properties taken were worth less than $650.

    “By contrast, federal reports show 147 Georgia law enforcement agencies taking in more than $32 million in forfeiture revenue in 2011 through federal forfeiture procedures, making Georgia one of the most aggressive states in the nation for federal forfeiture.

    “Of those 147 agencies, 122 have not yet filed a state forfeiture report, even though at least 51 have published legal notices indicating they are also pursuing state forfeitures.

    “Many state reports that have been filed lack even basic details necessary for proper public oversight, such as what was taken and when, how much it was worth and what was done with the proceeds.”

    The agencies that did file 2011 calendar year state reports seized $1.15 million in cash, $1.05 million categorized as “other” and $453,154 in cars. The federal program known as “equitable sharing” is an agreement between the U.S. Department of Justice and local agencies to share in proceeds. Georgia’s portion of “equitable sharing” grew from $14.5 million in Fiscal Year 2000 to $32.5 million in Fiscal 2011. The total take during those dozen years: $250 million. The IJ report says, “The state’s total dwarfed the average of $8.8 million across all states.”
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    How dare you bring FACTS into a good emotional argument? Everybody knows those good ole boys all go to choir practice every time they're not on duty!
    :rotflmao:
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    Nope Nope Nope. Didn't happen. No one wears Jackboots in Georgia. Gene said so. And those are just Liberal sources so they can not be trusted. And you don't understand Law. And you sound like Sharpton, because you want law enforcement to prove a crime occurred before they steal your money. and and and. Dripping sarcasm in case you could not tell.


    Bream, no one said ALL. When a spade is a spade and all. I don't have a problem with ALL cops, In fact I think a majority really are trying to do the best job they can. I don't think they are all Jackbooted Thugs, but when I see corruption, crime, excessive force, whatever, I will call it out. This is government condoned theft. Plain and simple.
    It's because I hate Trump.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,330 Senior Member
    Some of y'all miss sarcasm when it's lobbed at ya....
    Overkill is underrated.
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    Some of y'all miss sarcasm when it's lobbed at ya....
    I am a little slow.
    It's because I hate Trump.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,466 Senior Member
    Tubabucknut is a touchy one. Must be a story there. Maybe someday he and Al Sharpton can get together and educate us all on thugs and racists.

    I don't sympathize with people who have assets seized legally. It goes through the court system and they're given their day in court to address the seizure. Sorry, but if that makes me a jackbooted thug, I can live with that. We seized $100, 000 in cold, cocaine cash and I shed no tears. A coke dealer had to go back to his money source and try to explain what happened to the source's money. Good luck with that.

    Many times, seizures are part of the plea deal. Live with that or not. AGAIN, Civil Asset Forfiture is NOT a criminal judgement. Yes, you find a guy with a bunch of plastic bags, a scale, marijuana and $650, he can kiss that money goodbye.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • HvyMaxHvyMax Senior Member Posts: 1,786 Senior Member
    We seem to have developed an Enforcer Caste that views all Civvies as criminals waiting for a charge. How else can you describe someone who sits like a hawk at the edge of a field deciding which bunny running around like every other bunny is going to be dinner. You also have to look at policies like no knock warrants for delinquent student loans of a person that doesn't even live there anymore. Dynamic Entry for anything other than a hostage situation is a reckless disregard for the lives of everyone involved. If lives are not in danger there is no excuse to endanger them. It is sad to me that the police are a bigger threat to me and my family than the criminals ever could be. I miss the friendly peace keepers of my youth. But now we have armed robbers waiting to pounce on even the slightest infractions they can pretend exist.
    Wal Mart where the discriminating white trash shop.
    Paddle faster!!! I hear banjos.
    Reason for editing: correcting my auto correct
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,292 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    How dare you bring FACTS into a good emotional argument? Everybody knows those good ole boys all go to choir practice every time they're not on duty!
    :rotflmao:
    Jerry

    Kind of reminds me of a quote:
    Every truth passes through three stages before it is recognized. In the first, it is ridiculed, in the second it is opposed, in the third it is regarded as self-evident. ~Arthur Schopenhauer

    And another one that I cannot authenticate and give attribute to for Sam's benefit, as I cannot find it. It goes something like this:

    In a loud room full of opinion and argument, Truth stands silently in the middle of the room and points to itself.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,906 Senior Member
    It's all about balance. In our fear induced primarily by 9/11 we gave up a large swath of our civil liberties and emboldened an uncountable security state. The fleeting promise of "safety" was too enticing. It's nice to see the pendulum finally starting to swing the other way. It's not the end of the world and most of the issues can be solved by greater accountability and some tweaks to policy. This move by Holder being a tiny first step in the right direction.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,466 Senior Member
    Alpha, CAF has absolutely nothing to do with 9/11. It's been around for a LONG time before that. Although, the Patriot Act does limit freedoms in the name of security. It's an issue, just not this issue.

    I hope no one believes Holder is doing this in the name of freedom. That tiger isn't going to change his stripes.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • NomadacNomadac Senior Member Posts: 892 Senior Member
    Justice Department Ends Role in Controversial Seizure Practice article http://www.wsj.com/articles/justice-department-ends-role-in-controversial-seizure-practice-1421438753?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsThird&autologin=y

    While asset seizures were meant to target drug traffickers and other criminals, they have become increasingly controversial as people complained that their money, cars and other property were seized without evidence they had committed any crime.

    Sen. Charles Grassley (R., Iowa), who heads the Senate Judiciary Committee, had urged the Justice Department to end the practice. On Friday, he welcomed the shift, though he cautioned “the devil was in the details’’ of how it would be implemented.

    “The rule of law ought to be about protecting innocent people. Too often, we’ve seen just the opposite with civil asset-forfeiture laws. The practice up to this point had perverse incentives,’’ Mr. Grassley said.

    Eric Holder’s Good Deed? http://www.wsj.com/articles/eric-holders-good-deed-1421680450?mod=trending_now_7

    A long-term solution rests with Congress, which ought to address abuses nationwide. Senate Judiciary Chairman Chuck Grassley, Senator Mike Lee, and House Judiciary liberal John Conyers and conservative Jim Sensenbrenner have encouraged Justice to act, and we hope they can find a way to put a more thoroughgoing reform on Mr. Obama’s desk in the current Congress.

    If Congress follows through this will hopefully correct the problem.

    Another question, where do all of the fines collected go that the Justice Dept. collects from individuals and Businesses?
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,906 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    Alpha, CAF has absolutely nothing to do with 9/11. It's been around for a LONG time before that. Although, the Patriot Act does limit freedoms in the name of security. It's an issue, just not this issue.

    I hope no one believes Holder is doing this in the name of freedom. That tiger isn't going to change his stripes.
    Fair enough, the pendulum started swinging in this direction with the ramp up of "the war on drugs" and just picked up a lot of momentum with 911. Just nice to see a larger portion of the population starting to notice and recognize that in many areas we've gone too far.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,906 Senior Member
    Nomadac wrote: »

    If Congress follows through this will hopefully correct the problem.

    We can all hope. Would be amazing to see the more libertarian wing of the Republican party finally start to assert itself. This seems like a fairly easy issue for them to score some points on fairly popular bipartisan legislation.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    A few points to clarify, Gene stated between the police and Lawyers, it should read the District Attourney's Office, although lawyers, the DA prefers charges.

    If a LEO assaults someone, said LEO can be sued privately in civil court and depending on the amount awarded by the Court, get bank ruptured in the process, almost like civil asset forfeiture.

    Yes, there is evidence of dogs cueing off handlers to alert on vehicles, a former police officer testified as much after 20 years as a K-9 handler and trainer.

    Yeah, just about anyone can get jammed up on drug searches, ever give people rides in your car ?

    Anyone can be an addict of some type, drop a bag of drugs in your car, get enough drug residue on your car seat, it does not take much residue for a dog to smell.
    I remember riding with a friend, and saw a small paper bag on the floor at my feet, I asked what it was, being suspicious, he told me to look at it.

    It was full of illegal junk, belonged to his heroin addicted girlfriend according to him... now if we had been pulled over, not good......

    These things cut both ways, so many Lawn & Order types find out when they get framed or someone drops a load of drugs in their car, but wait, this never happens!
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    A warrantless search is only justified when the officer doesn't have time to get a warrant. The facts and circumstances leading to the search must be the same and will eventually be testified to in court. If you have probably cause to search a car but the car being mobile, you don't have time to get a warrant, then it's warrantless search time.

    As for seizing money, there has to be other factors than what you seem to think, i.e. the officer's judgement.

    This is not only GA law, it's Constitutional law. If you think cops, courts, and legislators have colluded to seize money, you need to adjust your tinfoil hat to another channel.


    On what planet is any of this fact ?

    A warrantless entry is only allowed under exigent circumstances, not as an excuse for warrantless search & seizure, there are also specifics involved, plain sight etc...
    Otherwise anything found is fruit of the poisonous tree and inadmissible as evidence in a court of law.

    By the way, Officer judgement or bias is never part of the equation, on oath or affirmation and probable cause, witnesses are warrant issued, hard evidence, and based on applicable laws.
    People love asset forfeiture until it happens to them or someone they love.

    Someone failed legal in the PA....
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,315 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    That's pretty funny. You uphold laws and don't even know what they are. Since cops initiate the forfeiture by seizing the assets(money, whatever), your statement is a bit disingenuous.

    I don't uphold matters of civil (tort) law because I have no jurisdiction to do so. How's that a complicated thing?

    I can request a forfeiture and detain the property in the asset forfeiture so it doesn't vanish before the forfeiture is approved, or disapproved. But I AM NOT the one performing the formal, legal forfeiture.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,315 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    On what planet is any of this fact ?

    A warrantless entry is only allowed under exigent circumstances, not as an excuse for warrantless search & seizure, there are also specifics involved, plain sight etc...
    Otherwise anything found is fruit of the poisonous tree and inadmissible as evidence in a court of law.

    By the way, Officer judgement or bias is never part of the equation, on oath or affirmation and probable cause, witnesses are warrant issued, hard evidence, and based on applicable laws.
    People love asset forfeiture until it happens to them or someone they love.

    Someone failed legal in the PA....

    Gene is right. He just didn't expand on the topic much. But no one is listening to him, so why should he bother typing stuff no one is reading?

    Exigencies generally mean an officer doesn't have time to get a warrant...

    Suspect burning/flushing/defacing/ruining evidence in plain view...

    Smell of cannabis in a vehicle or on someone's person...

    Plain noises indicating a violent or forcible felony is occurring...

    Those sorts of things.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
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