Red Team/Blue Team nonsense

LanceLance MemberPosts: 149 Member
No one from either camp is going to stand up for you people. This midterm will go on record as the most expensive campaign season ever with over $2 billion spent, about 55% demo - %45 repub as of the last count.

Do you any of you really think your votes, letters, or volunteering can stand a chance against this level of influence? Do you really think that (R)s are somehow better than (D)s when it's only about 300 americans that have the $, and they can just hedge their bets?

This partisan crap is just playing into their hands. Every day we argue amongst each other, DC, NYC, Houston, and SF have a nice laugh.

F the system. Vote 3rd party.
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Replies

  • HvyMaxHvyMax Senior Member Posts: 1,786 Senior Member
    The Repunklickan establishment has no more use for a free middle-class than the Bolsheviks!!!
    Wal Mart where the discriminating white trash shop.
    Paddle faster!!! I hear banjos.
    Reason for editing: correcting my auto correct
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,700 Senior Member
    When the day comes that a libertarian/conservative candidate surfaces that can pull 25% of the vote without me, I'll abandon my poorly performing anti-leftist voting scheme. That means fielding a charismatic candidate who can think on his feet and survive the character assassinations that will descend upon him.

    But I'm not throwing the baby out with the bathwater just to demonstrate my righteous anger at the screwed up system. I'll continue trying to slow this slide into perdition in the hopes that such a candidate will someday surface who can reverse this destructive trend. At present, the Libertarian Party's membership includes more demoralized anti-traditional, anti-war liberals than sensible libertarian/conservative types, like me - and that is not a winning strategy. It's just a bunch of hotheads preaching anarchy, and that's more suited to what will be needed when the slide is over and we are sitting on the bottom. Nobody will embrace it until then...me included.
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,812 Senior Member
    Come on guys, who will save us from ebola, terrorists, drugs, guns, global warming, and evil corporations?
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,812 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    When the day comes that a libertarian/conservative candidate surfaces that can pull 25% of the vote without me...

    There's the paradox...without you (and I) actually supporting a 3rd party candidate, how will they ever get elected?

    bisley wrote: »
    Libertarian Party's membership includes more demoralized anti-traditional, anti-war liberals than sensible libertarian/conservative types, like me - and that is not a winning strategy.

    That is fine GOP propaganda right there. If this was true, why in the hell do republicans cry about the LP taking votes and costing elections for the GOP?
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    And voting 3rd party does what? Aside from maybe costing the Republicans the election due to the Perot votes, I can't think of it having one single effect, bad or good, nationwide.

    And I'm of course speaking about modern day elections.

    If you can relate to me ONE national election where a 3rd party candidate has won, please do. I'm eager to hear this.

    Right now, all that 3rd party votes seem to provide is some sort of protest vote counter. Otherwise, it's like writing in "Alfred E. Newman" as your candidate. And it has about the same degree of efficacy.

    If you think that Bush was no different from Kerry, imagine John Kerry president. Despite my occasional frustrations with the general Republican party, yes, it is a LOT different from Democrats. If you don't believe this, just look at Obama and Eric Holder and Hillary and see how much havoc they've caused.

    You're of course welcome to opt out of the "system" and go sit in a hole somewhere and grump around and say "I voted for the Martian party!" which is fine.

    And by the way, it's in the PRIMARY that your vote really has the best effect. It was in the primary that we Texan Republicans dumped the RINO senate candidate and nominated an actual Teaparty guy, Cruz, who then won hugely (even though we were warned that nominating a Teaparty guy would spell defeat in November). Now Texas has a strong conservative US senator.

    Of course you may live in a "blue" state line NuuYawk or similar and hey, I can appreciate your frustration. Move to a state where your vote actually has a positive effect.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,596 Senior Member
    I agree with Sam. As long as they get their check/ Green Card/ etc from Uncle Sugar, any third party is going to take votes off of the GOP....... Dems will lose none
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,812 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    And voting 3rd party does what? Aside from maybe costing the Republicans the election due to the Perot votes, I can't think of it having one single effect, bad or good, nationwide.

    That's not what republicans said after the last two presidential elections. Libertarians/conservatives that refused to vote for McCain or Romney are still blamed for Obama winning. I'd say more than half of the members of this forum have stated this very thing. The GOP and its supporters cannot get their heads around the fact that both candidates were NOT conservatives and not worth wasting a vote. You'd think after two elections, that the GOP would grasp the fact that my vote (and millions like me) is valuable and won't be cast simply because of an "R" after a name. But we are talking about the Republican Party. This is the same party that is smearing Rand Paul for his libertarian leanings.
    samzhere wrote: »
    If you think that Bush was no different from Kerry, imagine John Kerry president. Despite my occasional frustrations with the general Republican party, yes, it is a LOT different from Democrats. If you don't believe this, just look at Obama and Eric Holder and Hillary and see how much havoc they've caused.

    Bush is different than Kerry. Not better, just different. Bush grew the federal government exponentially. Bush bailed out failed businesses. Bush said he’d vote for the AWB renewal. Bush incarcerated Americans without charges. Kerry (democrat) wouldn't have invaded Iraq. Kerry (likely) would’ve done the same crap Obama has pulled. I don't see a real difference between the two, except their causes.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,812 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    The dual two party systems WORKS!!!

    The dual system keeps the two parties in power. That's all it does. It forces Independants to vote for garbage or abstain. In fairness, there are candidates worth voting for. Just not presidential candidates.

    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    and NOTHING gets done...

    You say this like its a bad thing!
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,346 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    The answer is NOT running away to form your own "He-Man Woman's Hater Club" Spanky. The dual two party systems WORKS!!!. The answer is to become active with the party that most closely espouses your principles and try to make it better.
    Party is just a name anyway. People get hung up on it. If I started calling you Bob all the time, eventually you would start answering to it and other people would start calling you that. Would it make you a different person? No.

    Libertarians need to dump calling themselves that and need to start calling themselves Republicans. Breaking up the two party system is a fool's errand. It isn't going to happen.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Party is just a name anyway. People get hung up on it. If I started calling you Bob all the time, eventually you would start answering to it and other people would start calling you that. Would it make you a different person? No.

    Libertarians need to dump calling themselves that and need to start calling themselves Republicans. Breaking up the two party system is a fool's errand. It isn't going to happen.

    Be as messed up as Duck Soup to have a dozen different party's in Congress, they can't agree with two main ones now and their approval rating is 12%.

    What shall we call call Independents and Libertarians .........................IndyTards and LiboTards
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,346 Senior Member
    We (as a forum) could start calling ourselves the LiboTard Party. Would it change our political points of view? No.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,346 Senior Member
    Oh, and if our LiboTard Party started winning elections based on our "all guns, all the time" platform and got people in office, a chunk of that $2 billion that Lance mentioned would start heading our way. That political money goes to buy political influence from people in positions of power regardless of party. If the Greens and Libertarians were in power they would get that money while the Republicans and Democrats would be on the sidelines bitching about it.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,700 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    If this was true, why in the hell do republicans cry about the LP taking votes and costing elections for the GOP?

    Because they peel off single issue voters and some of the disenchanted who would normally hold their nose and vote 'R,'
    just to keep the lefties out. The problem with Libertarians is that they hate Democrats and Republicans with equal passion, when an honest accounting will show Republicans to be less destructive on the economy and several other issues, every time. This falls right into the hands of Democrats, whose defense against their undeniable corrupton is to just say, 'everybody does it.'

    We have been down this road a couple of times, already, CaliFFL. You can have the last word - I'll just be repeating myself if I continue.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,313 Senior Member
    A third-part vote is a proxy vote for Democrats.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,812 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Libertarians need to dump calling themselves that and need to start calling themselves Republicans.

    Not going to happen. As long as the GOP is opposed to individual liberty, continues to expand police powers, and supports never ending warfare, Libertarians will never identify themselves as Republicans. Same goes for the Democratic Party's gun control platform, war on capitalism, and ever expanding government/taxes.

    We are NOT single issue voters. Unless you consider Liberty itself a single issue.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,775 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Oh, and if our LiboTard Party started winning elections based on our "all guns, all the time" platform and got people in office, a chunk of that $2 billion that Lance mentioned would start heading our way. That political money goes to buy political influence from people in positions of power regardless of party. If the Greens and Libertarians were in power they would get that money while the Republicans and Democrats would be on the sidelines bitching about it.
    And therein lies the fundamental problem. Everything else is just a symptom.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    It is still the best system in the world even with all its faults. :usa::usa:

    Biggest problem is the politicians themselves. We have seen examples where they just flat out lie, never answer a question straight up just keep dodging them/dancing around and try and say what they said wasn't really what they said when they get called out on it.

    Speakum outta both side of their mouths and then grin like Jackasses in a briar patch in front of the cameras.

    Yep, 12% approval rating (Congress) from voters on all sides of political lines. That is about as sorry as you can get.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    We (as a forum) could start calling ourselves the LiboTard Party. Would it change our political points of view? No.

    No and all these arguments.................er discussions on here on politics haven't changed one single persons mind that I'm aware of. Only gets them mad and madder :mad::mad: as they dig in and throw salvos of "Reasoning" to and fro in their post.

    Some debates are more colorful than others.

    Including yours truly :tooth:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,313 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    Not going to happen. As long as the GOP is opposed to individual liberty, continues to expand police powers, and supports never ending warfare, Libertarians will never identify themselves as Republicans. Same goes for the Democratic Party's gun control platform, war on capitalism, and ever expanding government/taxes.

    We are NOT single issue voters. Unless you consider Liberty itself a single issue.

    The single issue the Libertarians have is losing. They're no more for liberty than any other party, despite what they call themselves, they just succeed in convincing themselves they are with evangelical fervor. Unable to make hard decisions, they will be contented to continue to lose in the name of purity.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,812 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    The single issue the Libertarians have is losing. They're no more for liberty than any other party, despite what they call themselves, they just succeed in convincing themselves they are with evangelical fervor. Unable to make hard decisions, they will be contented to continue to lose in the name of purity.


    Yep, we lose almost all elections. Freedom scares the hell out of people; Democrats and Republicans alike. A candidate that runs on a platform of eliminating gun control, ending prohibition, expanding free markets, using the military to ONLY defend America, reducing government/taxes, and most of all pushing personal responsibility gets the Establishment's full wrath. Both Parties want to control people. It's written on their national platforms. The Libertarian platform is the exact opposite (no matter what YOU think). This idea does not compute with most Americans.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,628 Senior Member
    Our very own G&A Forums lunatic fringe is at it again.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    The answer is to become active with the party that most closely espouses your principles and try to make it better.

    You said it exactly, and more succinctly than I did. The key isn't to run and vote for some goofball 3rd party with zero chance of winning. It's working WITHIN the party to tweak and push it toward the correct leaning. This is exactly what conservative Republicans did in Texas over the past 10-15 years or so, nudging the once-midstream Republicans more and more toward a conservative agenda.

    We're lucky here, in that we're principally a "red" state now and so there were plenty of Republicans to get on the bandwagon. For those living in blue states, I can't do otherwise than recommend you move to a more conservative-friendly state.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    Bush is different than Kerry. Not better, just different.

    If you keep thinking that, there's no chance you'll ever see things as they really are.

    Lemme ask this: Name a recent nationally known political figure (in the past, oh, 15 years) whom you would actually have supported for President, and voted for? ONE person, just name him (or her).

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • shushshush Senior Member Posts: 6,259 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    Come on guys, who will save us from ebola, terrorists, drugs, guns, global warming, and evil corporations?


    One will;

    20120918-freddie-mercury-12-x595-1348006493.jpg
    samzhere wrote: »
    ........... ONE person, just name him (or her).

    Guess?

    cjp wrote: »..... Oh dear God, I've admitted to liking something Limey.I'll never hear the end of this.

    Jayhawker wrote: »...But seriously Shush....

    Big Chief wrote: ».........walking around with a greasy butt ain't no fun, though!

     


     

  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,346 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    Not going to happen. As long as the GOP is opposed to individual liberty, continues to expand police powers, and supports never ending warfare, Libertarians will never identify themselves as Republicans. Same goes for the Democratic Party's gun control platform, war on capitalism, and ever expanding government/taxes.
    You still don't understand what I am saying. Let us use you, and your values as an example...

    If you ran for office as a Libertarian candidate, with your outlook and values, you would not be elected dog catcher. If you were to put on a red hat and run as a Republican, while still not compromising one bit on your outlook and values, you would stand a fair chance of winning an election in a half way conservative area. I am not saying that the individual values should change, the hats need to change. If you called yourself a Democrat in a democratic leaning area, the same thing would happen.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,183 Senior Member
    The Democratdonkeys and Republicanelephants are both after the same thing; absolute power. They differ only in their methods of obtaining it. Philosophically, you can still slide a sheet of onion skin typing paper between the two, but their objective is still the same. Both parties wipe their filthy backsides with the Constitution as they please. Neither party is the worth of a pile of steaming dog crap.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,812 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    If you keep thinking that, there's no chance you'll ever see things as they really are.

    Lemme ask this: Name a recent nationally known political figure (in the past, oh, 15 years) whom you would actually have supported for President, and voted for? ONE person, just name him (or her).

    I get it. You didn't take the time to read my rationale, or simply ignored the facts.

    To answer your question, Ron Paul. I gave a lot of money to his last campaign. I'll support Rand if he runs, but the GOP is doing it's level best to discredit him, even your beloved Canadian, Ted Cruz.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,812 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    You still don't understand what I am saying. Let us use you, and your values as an example...

    If you ran for office as a Libertarian candidate, with your outlook and values, you would not be elected dog catcher. If you were to put on a red hat and run as a Republican, while still not compromising one bit on your outlook and values, you would stand a fair chance of winning an election in a half way conservative area. I am not saying that the individual values should change, the hats need to change. If you called yourself a Democrat in a democratic leaning area, the same thing would happen.

    This is not a bad idea, except I (or the candidate) would have to lie during the campaign. If I ran as a Republican, and said "Legalization would reduce the prison population and the ability of police to steal cash on the highway", the GOP would not support me. The same thing would happen if I ran as a Democrat and mentioned "guns for all, all the time."

    If I ever ran, I wouldn't lie to get elected. This is the difference between LP candidates and D's & R's.

    Losing is better than selling my soul.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,812 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Since I've been squirreled away on several occasions out of one of those 10 party cesspools the night before a coup I can tell you I like our system a lot better. Watching the hotel you were sleeping in the night before being turned into a colander with a .50 on CNN will give you a different perspective.

    You weren't in Italy. Your were in a cessspool, multi-party system didn't matter.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,313 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    This is not a bad idea, except I (or the candidate) would have to lie during the campaign. If I ran as a Republican, and said "Legalization would reduce the prison population and the ability of police to steal cash on the highway", the GOP would not support me. The same thing would happen if I ran as a Democrat and mentioned "guns for all, all the time."

    If I ever ran, I wouldn't lie to get elected. This is the difference between LP candidates and D's & R's.

    Losing is better than selling my soul.

    You're voting D and apparently don't realize it.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
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