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Colorado School Changes Pledge to One Nation Under ‘Allah’?

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  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    Mike, you just can't argue with a Kool-Aid drinker- - - - -his mind is made up; don't confuse him with facts. It's a lost cause!
    Jerry

    Can't help it. Not in my nature to let something like that go unchallenged. It does, however, make me wonder what kind of fairytale fantasies pass for history classes nowadays. I guess that "tell a lie often enough and it becomes truth" works.

    So here's some more fuel to throw on the fire.

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    Funny that the states are not mentioned; only Congress. Incorporation didn't happen until 1947 with the case of Emerson v. Board of Education, and in 1948 with McCollum v. Board of Education. Ain't history grand?
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • USUFBUSUFB Senior Member Posts: 830 Senior Member
    Tennmike, it's easy to be okay with public school teachers leading a prayer when they share your religion. If this country undergoes large demographics changes, and becomes majority Jewish, or Muslim, or Buddhist, what then? Will it be acceptable to you if a teacher has every student kneel on a mat and face Mecca? Or put on one of those little hats and recite something from the Torah?
    Sometimes, I lie awake in bed at night wondering "Why the heck can't I fall asleep?"
    NRA Life Member
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 24,834 Senior Member
    USUFB wrote: »
    Tennmike, it's easy to be okay with public school teachers leading a prayer when they share your religion. If this country undergoes large demographics changes, and becomes majority Jewish, or Muslim, or Buddhist, what then? Will it be acceptable to you if a teacher has every student kneel on a mat and face Mecca? Or put on one of those little hats and recite something from the Torah?
    All hail the Great Goddess Athena! :silly:

    This is exactly why, one more time, religion needs to be in the private sphere, and the private sphere ONLY. Then no-body has problems over the subject.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
    )O(
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    USUFB wrote: »
    Tennmike, it's easy to be okay with public school teachers leading a prayer when they share your religion. If this country undergoes large demographics changes, and becomes majority Jewish, or Muslim, or Buddhist, what then? Will it be acceptable to you if a teacher has every student kneel on a mat and face Mecca? Or put on one of those little hats and recite something from the Torah?

    That Muslim prayer time thing is already being done in quite a few schools; more will follow. And you forget where I live and at what years I was in school. The late '50s through early '70s was a different place and time. Never met someone of Muslim faith in the 12 years I was in school. Did have some Muslim students in college after the Navy gig. Did have a few Greek Orthodox and a few Jewish students in high school. They were pretty cool dudes and dudettes. Didn't give a rip about their religion, nor did they give a rip about mine. We were friends with common interests and enjoyed each others company. Imagine that, different religions not being a stumbling block.

    Now to business. Prayer at beginning of school day is verboten unless it is a Christian or other specific religious school. They play by different rules, and rightly so. So is the traditional prayer by players before an athletic event even if it is something ALL players want to do. Thanksgiving is now Fall Festival and Christmas is Winter Festival in schools. And some have gone so far as to call them nothing more than Fall and Winter 'Breaks' in the school year.

    I would be against forcing someone of a different religion/faith to participate in another religion/faith that they did not believe in. HOWEVER, if someone of those particular religions/faiths wanted to pray at times specifically set out by their religion/faith then I have no problem with it. They can do so in the hallway where other students will not be disrupted in their studies. That's more accommodation than Christian students get, not that it matters, and assuming you've been paying attention.

    Now, for the eleventyseventh time; as long as someone is not doing something that negatively impacts me personally, then I say go for it, do it, knock yourself out. I don't care. Only when it negatively affects me personally do I draw a line. If someone wants to roll a joint 10 feet long and as big as a Cuban cigar in girth, and smokes it all themselves, let 'er rip. Or drink 2 gallons of whatever booze a day. Or snort a kilo of cocaine, or smoke the same in crack cocaine, or shoot a gallon of heroin. They may also freely worship Satan or Gaia, or any other deity(s) they wish. No skin off my nose. They have the freedom to do so, but should not attempt to force me to follow suit in their selected behavior, nor attempt to rob me to support that habit; attempting either could have very negative results.
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  • USUFBUSUFB Senior Member Posts: 830 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    That Muslim prayer time thing is already being done in quite a few schools; more will follow. And you forget where I live and at what years I was in school. The late '50s through early '70s was a different place and time. Never met someone of Muslim faith in the 12 years I was in school. Did have some Muslim students in college after the Navy gig. Did have a few Greek Orthodox and a few Jewish students in high school. They were pretty cool dudes and dudettes. Didn't give a rip about their religion, nor did they give a rip about mine. We were friends with common interests and enjoyed each others company. Imagine that, different religions not being a stumbling block.

    I remember where and when you went to high school. It was indeed a different time.

    Now to business. Prayer at beginning of school day is verboten unless it is a Christian or other specific religious school. They play by different rules, and rightly so. So is the traditional prayer by players before an athletic event even if it is something ALL players want to do. Thanksgiving is now Fall Festival and Christmas is Winter Festival in schools. And some have gone so far as to call them nothing more than Fall and Winter 'Breaks' in the school year.

    So it's verboten, yet it happened everyday at your school. And the ten commandments were posting inside the main entrance. Do you see what's wrong with that?

    I would be against forcing someone of a different religion/faith to participate in another religion/faith that they did not believe in. HOWEVER, if someone of those particular religions/faiths wanted to pray at times specifically set out by their religion/faith then I have no problem with it. They can do so in the hallway where other students will not be disrupted in their studies. That's more accommodation than Christian students get, not that it matters, and assuming you've been paying attention.

    I would be against that as well.

    Regarding the accommodations, I'm not aware of any Christian sect that requires prayers at specific times of day. If there were, or is, considering many in this country are Christian, it probably wouldn't be big deal. It becomes a problems when people of other faiths want the same accommodations; we here cries from the religious right suggesting that we ignore such requests, because this is a "Christian nation."


    Now, for the eleventyseventh time; as long as someone is not doing something that negatively impacts me personally, then I say go for it, do it, knock yourself out. I don't care. Only when it negatively affects me personally do I draw a line. If someone wants to roll a joint 10 feet long and as big as a Cuban cigar in girth, and smokes it all themselves, let 'er rip. Or drink 2 gallons of whatever booze a day. Or snort a kilo of cocaine, or smoke the same in crack cocaine, or shoot a gallon of heroin. They may also freely worship Satan or Gaia, or any other deity(s) they wish. No skin off my nose. They have the freedom to do so, but should not attempt to force me to follow suit in their selected behavior, nor attempt to rob me to support that habit; attempting either could have very negative results.

    Fantastic. I feel the same way.

    My responses in bold.
    Sometimes, I lie awake in bed at night wondering "Why the heck can't I fall asleep?"
    NRA Life Member
  • USUFBUSUFB Senior Member Posts: 830 Senior Member
    zorba wrote: »
    All hail the Great Goddess Athena! :silly:

    This is exactly why, one more time, religion needs to be in the private sphere, and the private sphere ONLY. Then no-body has problems over the subject.

    Yup. No public facilities or money.
    Sometimes, I lie awake in bed at night wondering "Why the heck can't I fall asleep?"
    NRA Life Member
  • USUFBUSUFB Senior Member Posts: 830 Senior Member
    A Colorado high school principal is defending his decision to allow students from a cultural club to recite the Pledge of Allegiance in Arabic — and denied that it was attempt to push an Islamic agenda. Tom Lopez, the principal at Rocky Mountain High School in Fort Collins, told Fox News he has received a number of telephone calls and emails from outraged parents – but he stands by his decision.

    “These students love this country,” he said. “They were not being un-American in trying to do this. They believed they were accentuating the meaning of the words as spoken regularly in English.”
    The school recites the Pledge of Allegiance once a week and on Monday a member of the Cultural Arms Club led the student body in the Arabic version of the pledge.
    The club seeks to “destroy the barriers, embrace the cultures” that exist within the high school.
    Danielle Clark, communications director of the Poudre School District, said they understand why parents are upset.
    “We understand not everybody would agree with the students’ choice,” she told Fox News. “We’ve heard there are some who are upset.”
    On the other hand, she said she received one email from a person who “thought it was a great thing.”
    Clark said the cultural club has a history of reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in a number of different languages.
    “It’s not just Arabic,” she said.

    Last year, the group found itself in a firestorm of controversy after reciting the pledge in Spanish.
    “This is a student-initiated and student-led club,” Clark said. “There is no school sponsor or advisor. It doesn’t come under the umbrella of the district.”
    She said the students simply asked the principal permission as a courtesy.
    “We deferred to the students because it’s their deal,” she said.
    Club members said they don’t understand why there’s a controversy.
    “No matter what language it’s said in, pledging your allegiance to the United States is the same in every language,” student Skyler Bowden told The Coloradoan.
    But an Arabic translation of the Pledge of Allegiance would have replaced “one nation under God” with “one nation under Allah.”
    “Obviously in Arabic, you would use the word Allah, but Christian Arabs would use the word Allah,” said Ibrahim Hooper, of the Council on American Islamic Relations. “It’s not necessarily specific to Islam and Muslims.”
    Clark said she did not hear the pledge and does not speak Arabic so she could not confirm exactly what words were used.
    Some local residents said the pledge should be recited in English. Others wondered if there was another reason involved.
    “This is no longer about language,” wrote one reader in a letter to the local newspaper. “This is about targeting a group you know will object, intentionally stirring them up under the guise of your opinions on multiculturalism and subjecting your school and community to a divisive issue for absolutely no gain.”
    Lopez said he’s been getting bombarded by all sorts of accusations – one critic even labeled him a traitor.
    “They claim they are outraged that this is blaspheming a real major tenet of our patriotism – which in their mind the Pledge of Allegiance is only in English,” he said.
    He’s also been accused of “pushing a Muslim Brotherhood agenda – to push Islam into the school.” That’s a claim that Lopez denied.
    Hooper told Fox News he was dumbfounded by complaints about the Arabic version of the pledge.
    “How on earth is it un-American to recite the Pledge of Allegiance in another language,” Hooper asked. “It doesn’t make sense unless the people complaining are anti-Muslim or anti-middle eastern bigots.”
    Principal Lopez said he was getting “worn down” by the complaints and the sense of “hate” among some of the critics.
    “I’ve been shocked with prejudicial statements that have been made,” he said. ” I’ve been shocked with the lack of seeking understanding. There’s definitely suspicion and fear expressed in these people’s minds. There’s some hate.”
    But some residents say they feel strongly that the Pledge should be recited in English.
    “As a veteran and a friend of a man killed defending these children in their little games they like to play with our pledge, I’m offended,” wrote Chris Wells on the Daily Coloradoan. “There are things that we don’t mess with – among them are the pledge and our anthem.”
    “If they wish to adapt the country as their own, then they need to learn the language and start speaking it as their first language,” wrote another reader.
    Hooper suggested the students could use the incident as a learning “opportunity that there is real intolerance and bigotry out there.”

    Sorry for posting three straight times, I just thought the full text of the article might be helpful.
    Sometimes, I lie awake in bed at night wondering "Why the heck can't I fall asleep?"
    NRA Life Member
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    USUFB wrote: »
    Tennmike, it's easy to be okay with public school teachers leading a prayer when they share your religion. If this country undergoes large demographics changes, and becomes majority Jewish, or Muslim, or Buddhist, what then? Will it be acceptable to you if a teacher has every student kneel on a mat and face Mecca? Or put on one of those little hats and recite something from the Torah?

    Nobody (Jews) expects anyone ( non Jews) to recite Torah, (the ten commandments) or liturgical prayers, and I suppose anyone can pray silently if they so chose.

    But to call people nuts, or other names is uncalled for, Muslims seek to ban things like Christmas displays, wearing a cross and other religious ornaments etc.... While worship of a symbol is not the main aim of these symbols, how far do you go to appease rabid idealists ?
    Same thing the anti gun crowd does to disenfranchise us, call us gun nuts etc... I guess it takes a personal ox getting goarded, just ban guys with hairy legs from wearing veils and skirts, call them crazy or nuts and see what happens.... esp if they have a non Christian religion, or no religion too,.. lol John Lemon song...
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Originally posted by USUFB
    So it's verboten, yet it happened everyday at your school. And the ten commandments were posting inside the main entrance. Do you see what's wrong with that?


    I grew up, went to school, in a very rural county. The Christian churches, in order of most members to least, was Southern Baptist, Methodist, and Catholic. There were no temples or mosques in that county then or now, nor are there any in the county in which I now reside. Having prayer in school, with that demographic in mind, was not unusual. Having the 10 Commandments posted in school was not unusual, either. You fail to take in the demographic makeup of the area I was born and raised in, and try to insert instead some urban setting completely outside my upbringing that, at that time in my life, would have been as foreign as the planet Venus. For all intents and purposes the area I grew up in could be considered a monoculture as regards religion.

    Didn't know any atheists, either. Don't ask, don't tell, I guess. It just never came up. Biggest contributor to the church I went to was a part time moonshiner and full time farmer. I felt that was more odd than prayer in school or the posted 10 Commandments. Actually never gave the prayer and 10 Commandments posted in the school any thought at all; both were there long before I came along. The moonshining farmer was unique, so he was of interest to me.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
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  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 17,872 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    Radical/Outspoken Muslims seek to ban things like Christmas displays, wearing a cross and other religious ornaments etc....

    FIFY...and they are no different/less irritating than bible thumping Baptists,Rabid Atheists,Holier than thou Methodists, Door-knockin' Jehovah Witnesses, Soul Savin' Mormon Missionaries, various Recently/Newly-Saved Reformed Whores or anyone else that insists on cramming their particular brand of religion or lack thereof down someone else's throat. I daresay that the largest percentage of Muslims could care less how others practice their faith...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Except when they finance terrorism and acts of terrorism by acts of commission or acts of omission, "all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" or contribute 1 dollar every now and then.
    I guess I this easy to forget those planes on 9/11, terrorism is an act of many more people, if Islam was not fueling the fires of terrorism, you would have much less acts of terrorism.

    Just knocking on peoples doors does not constitute cramming, just don't open your door !
    Most Religions are not seeking to change America into a Muslim run country.

    Oh yeah, keep on fooling yourself you Infidels ! If you are not Muslim, you are Infidel to Allah, and unsaved !
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 17,872 Senior Member
    Doc...I ain't forgetting a thing...and for every radical/extremist Muslim out there that is fomenting/supporting terrorism and the establishment of a One World Caliphate, there are many times that number that do neither. I also remember those blue-blooded American idiots that were running around killing and beating Sikhs afterwards as well....proud moment for the Old Red, White and Blue....

    By the way...that guy and the village that saved the life of Marcus Lutrell in Afghanistan....Musta been a bunch of closet Baptists huh?

    For those who are a threat...hey, I've got no issue with killing them folks that need killing....and I don't really care what religion they are.... But this whole "Muslim = Terrorist" thing is a bunch of crap...No different that saying Catholic Priest = Child Molester.

    We would all do well to remember the wisdom of Sgt Buster Kilrain, 20th Maine "Any man who judges by the group is a pea-wit. You take men one at a time."
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    The whole "Christian Nation" thing is complete hogwash and trumps nothing. Yes we are a nation that has a majority of Christians, but it was founded by religious outcasts, atheists, and deists. Religious freedom is one of the most important freedoms we enjoy and one of the things that made the country so unique when it was founded.

    Where in the hell do you come up with this? I know you're an intelligent and educated guy, and I think I would really like you in real, But where in hell were you in history class? Of course if you were in Grade School, Middle School, High School during the latter 70s, the 80s, or 90s, your history class may have been taught by a "Left Wing Nut Job" spewing revisionist History and lies.

    Another thing, where do you people come up with the idea that Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Madison, Adams, and the rest of the people that were instrumental in founding this country and writing the Constitution were NOT CHRISTIAN? Read what they wrote and tell me that. The whole thing about division of Religion and State was to prevent having a religion that was nothing more than the voice and puppet of the Government, such as the Church of England was at the time. That institution was viewed by the founders and framers as another entity by which the King to could use to Manipulate the people, hence we had a lot of Loyalists. They were spot on in this and they added it into the Constitution to prevent this from happening with the newly formed Government.

    But you have to be brain dead not to read what they wrote and surmise they weren't Christian. AND I will go so far to say that they just never realized we could get so far from God that we would say things like you're saying en mass.

    Now, this is not to say I believe that every Sunday we should all be herded to church. That's the beauty of being an American. The Constitution has a lot of checks within to allow people to believe as they wish, and I don't believe there should be laws made to enforce religion on the public, because the Bible itself doesn't warrant that. In fact the Bible says salvation is a matter of choice and failure to seek it should not be a man appointed penalty. The Bible says
    Over and over that the penalty for not being saved will be dealt with in the afterlife, not here.

    This is a BIG DIFFERENCE between Christianity and Islam. Yeah I know, some of the more enthusiastic preachers and their variety of Christianity think they are anointed by God to do this to the rest of us. But here again, the Constitution has provisions to stop this and there are laws on the books against such intolerance. But you go to most Muslim Countries in the Middle East and that's the rule. Some it is a crime to possess a Bible.

    So if someone doesn't believe in God, or they don't believe in the Christian God or the Judeo-Christian God and religion, that's their choice. And the Government shouldn't make laws to enforce it or chastise anyone who doesn't follow that. But the guys that wrote all that were pretty much Christian and they foresaw a country guided by Christian principles.

    Edited to ADD: I didn't use any specific examples when I referred to reading the writings of the Founders and Framers. Do a search and read some, then reply to my statement if you don't believe what I said. I also didn't use specifics when I referred to the Constitution saying this or that. Here again, if you doubt me, read the Constitution over and comment. Everything I said is in there.

    Also, being a Mason as were Washington and Franklin to name a couple, I really believe that the popular belief that they were Deists comes from the fact that Masonry is not in itself a Christian organization. There are and have nearly always been men of OTHER religious persuasions than Christianity in the Fraternity. There are a lot of Jewish Masons, and of late we have some Hindos, Buddhists, and EVEN Muslim Masons. So in the basic Masonic lodge we do not deal with Christ. All our prayers and work deal with Simply God and to be a Mason you need only believe in a Supreme Being. That is what a Deist is. So people think that at least Washington, Franklin and some others were Deists.

    There is in fact a Christian entity or branch of Masonry in the York Rite. It's called the Commandry. But I have never read whether or not any of these guys were members thereof or not.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    zorba wrote: »
    All hail the Great Goddess Athena! :silly:

    This is exactly why, one more time, religion needs to be in the private sphere, and the private sphere ONLY. Then no-body has problems over the subject.

    What Mike is trying to get across to you is that if it is not legal for Christians, why let the Muslims and others do it in school or Government or public period?

    But I still maintain that the original intent in what the Constitution says in the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise clause as stated here, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religious beliefs , or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." was only to prevent one religion being used by the State to manipulate and brain wash the people. It didn't mean as some of you would like it, "Freedom From Religion!" Freedom from or of religion is guaranteed in the Constitution on a personal basis.

    But it doesn't mean the Government cannot mention God or Christianity. Like I've said before, your belief in God or your preference of which religion you prefer to practice are or should be your own choices. If a majority of the people want or have no issue with the Ten Commandments chiseled or written on a building, or a Christmas tree or a Nativity scene at the Whitehouse or on any government property, so be it, as long as you're not required to participate. If an action or a statement is the will of the Majority and does not harm a minority in their practice of their belief, then it should be a legal practice. It's not interfering with anyone else's rights.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 24,834 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    What Mike is trying to get across to you is that if it is not legal for Christians, why let the Muslims and others do it in school or Government or public period?

    This I will agree with. All religions need to be treated the same - including Christians.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
    )O(
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    zorba wrote: »
    This I will agree with. All religions need to be treated the same - including Christians.

    I must say too, that if these kids want to use the word Allah in their own pledge or in a private setting, I can find no fault with that. But that's as far as it goes. If they, or anyone else thinks for one second that we should all convert to that thinking, they've been drinking way too much sedeke and need to get out of the sun and the sand is getting to their brain cells.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    What Mike is trying to get across to you is that if it is not legal for Christians, why let the Muslims and others do it in school or Government or public period?

    From one Mike to another, you're close, but still not where I'm at yet.

    Where do I start? The LGBT community is well out of the closet and are using the courts to shove their agenda down everyone's throat. They'll file a lawsuit at the drop of a hat, or G-string, if they don't get their way. The liberals, in general, are trying very hard to make everyone toe their agenda, or else, and calling those who will not racists, bigots, and other names to shut down the discourse. And every other rag-tag group of knotheads are doing the same. They all want power over others, and will have it, or else.

    The term 'separation of church and state' appears nowhere in the Constitution. It was in a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists. That letter holds no power vis the Constitution, yet it has been, and is now, being used to bludgeon any artifact of religion from the public sphere. It is an example of 'tell a lie long enough and it becomes truth'. And the crackhead politicians and judges have sucked the bait down so hard it is hanging out their alimentary canal terminus. If they were so easily fooled, and ignorant of the Constitution, think how easy it is to sway the average citizen/voter; my recently deceased cat was smarter than the whole lot.

    Take, for example, the high school football game. The pregame prayer by a pastor was driven out by court order. So the players had a pregame huddle and said a prayer no one but the players could hear. However, the easily offended crybabies had a hissy canniption fit over that. That is now being fought out in the courts and being shut down because if the coach is with them, logic has been stretched beyond its elastic limits by fools to say that the coach represents the government, and is therefore establishment of religion.

    And it goes on, and on, and on, and on. At times I get to the point that I would like to take those offended by someone saying a prayer, or wearing a crucifix or Cross of David, and apply a Louisville Slugger up side their head with great vigor. Their act hurts no one; yet the narrow minded fools offended wish to force them to their narrow minded and vindictive vitriolic world view, or else.

    One more example, and I'm done with this mess. Burn a Qur'an in the U.S. and the head of every liberal in the nation will explode. Never mind the outrage from the Muslim community. Burn a Bible or Torah, and those same liberals will cheer, and rush out to find more to burn. This country is fast becoming a filth hole full of intolerance; I don't recognize my country anymore.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
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  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,933 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    From one Mike to another, you're close, but still not where I'm at yet.

    Where do I start? The LGBT community is well out of the closet and are using the courts to shove their agenda down everyone's throat. They'll file a lawsuit at the drop of a hat, or G-string, if they don't get their way. The liberals, in general, are trying very hard to make everyone toe their agenda, or else, and calling those who will not racists, bigots, and other names to shut down the discourse. And every other rag-tag group of knotheads are doing the same. They all want power over others, and will have it, or else.

    The term 'separation of church and state' appears nowhere in the Constitution. It was in a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists. That letter holds no power vis the Constitution, yet it has been, and is now, being used to bludgeon any artifact of religion from the public sphere. It is an example of 'tell a lie long enough and it becomes truth'. And the crackhead politicians and judges have sucked the bait down so hard it is hanging out their alimentary canal terminus. If they were so easily fooled, and ignorant of the Constitution, think how easy it is to sway the average citizen/voter; my recently deceased cat was smarter than the whole lot.

    Take, for example, the high school football game. The pregame prayer by a pastor was driven out by court order. So the players had a pregame huddle and said a prayer no one but the players could hear. However, the easily offended crybabies had a hissy canniption fit over that. That is now being fought out in the courts and being shut down because if the coach is with them, logic has been stretched beyond its elastic limits by fools to say that the coach represents the government, and is therefore establishment of religion.

    And it goes on, and on, and on, and on. At times I get to the point that I would like to take those offended by someone saying a prayer, or wearing a crucifix or Cross of David, and apply a Louisville Slugger up side their head with great vigor. Their act hurts no one; yet the narrow minded fools offended wish to force them to their narrow minded and vindictive vitriolic world view, or else.

    One more example, and I'm done with this mess. Burn a Qur'an in the U.S. and the head of every liberal in the nation will explode. Never mind the outrage from the Muslim community. Burn a Bible or Torah, and those same liberals will cheer, and rush out to find more to burn. This country is fast becoming a filth hole full of intolerance; I don't recognize my country anymore.
    I often wonder how the NASCAR pre race prayer has survived. Perhaps because they call it "the invocation".
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    NASCAR doesn't give a dam what the freaks think. That's the attitude the rest of us need to have. Let the minuscule number of perpetually butthurt donkeyholes whine and scream all they want- - - - -in reality they're about as relevant as the swarm of flies feasting on a pile of cow flop, and just a little bit less sanitary! Screw the whole bunch of 'em! (Figuratively- - - -I wouldn't get close enough to the AIDS-infested butt rangers to risk the real act!)
    Jerry
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    They don't do it at NASCAR races because the fans would proceed to stomp a mudhole in their chest, and then proceed to stomp the mudhole dry. And then they would watch the race.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
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  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,249 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    They don't do it at NASCAR races because the fans would proceed to stomp a mudhole in their chest, and then proceed to stomp the mudhole dry. And then they would watch the race, after they had the prayer.

    FIFY
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 24,834 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    They don't do it at NASCAR races...
    No-one cares - NASCAR is a private entity, they can do what they want!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
    )O(
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,758 Senior Member
    zorba wrote: »
    No-one cares - NASCAR is a private entity, they can do what they want!
    And that's the key thing: NASCAR's a private entity. Their rules, their business.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    ''Jefferson and the Bill of Rights
    Main articles: Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause
    Thomas Jefferson, the third President of the United States, whose letter to the Danbury Baptists Association is often quoted in debates regarding the separation of church and state.

    In English, the exact term is an offshoot of the phrase, "wall of separation between church and state", as written in Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802. In that letter, referencing the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, Jefferson writes:

    Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State.[15]

    Jefferson was describing to the Baptists that the United States Bill of Rights prevents the establishment of a national church, and in so doing they did not have to fear government interference in their manner of worship. The Bill of Rights was one of the earliest examples in the world of complete religious freedom (adopted in 1791, only preceded by the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen in 1789)."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state

    Ditto tennmike:

    Looks to me like the State can not establish a religion, other than that the MAJORITY RULES and we were founded on Judeo-Christian (although that term was coined later) principles not Islam or atheism. If I lived in Kuwait or wherever I sure wouldn't expect them to stop their prayers and conform to my beliefs or lack of, why should we for the noisemakers here?
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 24,834 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    ...founded on Judeo-Christian (although that term was coined later) principles not Islam or atheism.

    The only disagreement I'll have with this is said "principles" pre-date Christianity for sure, and possibly Judaism as well. Our Gov't is actually based on the pre-Christian Greco-Roman model - for better or worse.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
    )O(
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Why is it become such an issue the latter part of the 20th century and now, I wonder?

    Less crime/more respect for others and families stayed together more. Christian morals were a cornerstone of our public schooling. Talk about the ""Fabric" of America coming apart.

    Call religion the "Opiate of the Masses" if you like and be an atheist I don't care and support your right to do so.

    America is NOT an Islamic country. How tolerant do those spineless school officials think ''The Religion of Peace" would be toward Christians if they were the majority? Zero Tolerance........... as they like to say.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 24,834 Senior Member
    BC, I more-or-less agree with you, except the "morals" in question really aren't "Christian" per se. More what I call "universal ethics". But be that as it may, I agree that America isn't, and must not become, an Islamic country - OR a Christian one.

    For the record, I'm most definitely not an atheist - far from it. But my "big thing" is ethics. We've long lost them, with the results that we see - and unfortunately ethics are the only thing that truly matters. Not "morals", not "rules", and certainly not "Laws", but Ethics! The pie-in-the-sky truth is that if people and societies were truly ethical, governments, laws, rules, etc wouldn't be necessary. Of course, you and I both know that's not gonna ever happen anytime soon, so governments, laws, rules, are an imperfect attempt to codify the uncodifiable: Ethics!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
    )O(
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,534 Senior Member
    I have to kinda agree with what the students want.

    I don't care what language you pledge allegiance in, just so long as you do. Yeah I get it, This is not one Nation under Allah, Zeus, Budda, or who ever.

    I am a Christian. I speak English as a first language. In my Utopia, I would like to see everyone as a Christian. But I do not force my view. I tell you my belief and try to let me actions be the thing that moves you to convert (I fail often). The Reality of my view is I don't care what religion you claim and what god you worship. If it makes you a better man and better citizen I am okay with it.

    There is a huge uproar in the Nation over Religion and Language. The new world was founded on the Idea of spreading Christianity and religious freedom. But not worshiping as a Christian does not make you less American. Neither does not speaking English. What makes you less American, is not embracing the core ideas of this nation. What makes you less American is trying to be Oppressive and Authoritative to further your own view (see history notes on Lenin). Not having an official language is what continues to separate us from the Socialist europeans that do have a state language.

    It is almost like the idea of illegals getting citizenship from serving in the military. I am all for it. Defending the rights you want without reservation makes you more of an American (in my eyes), than a natural born person living on the system at the expense of others. There is a name for that...
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 24,834 Senior Member
    Good on you CM. You're a credit to your religion.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
    )O(
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