.460 S&W Field Report and my Grail Animal

2

Replies

  • shushshush Senior Member Posts: 6,259 Senior Member
    Good man. :up:

    I am sorry to be late but the queue was around the block. :worthy:

    cjp wrote: »..... Oh dear God, I've admitted to liking something Limey.I'll never hear the end of this.

    Jayhawker wrote: »...But seriously Shush....

    Big Chief wrote: ».........walking around with a greasy butt ain't no fun, though!

     


     

  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 11,006 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Dude!!!! It's still dragging!!! I'm getting too old and decrepit for that.

    Good grief, we use these sleds all the time, ice fishing, hunting, transporting dead deer in vehicles to keep the blood off of them, it is easier than dragging them with the sled than without it, tie some rope to the front of the sled and a caribiner on the other end to clip to your belt or however you want to cinch it to your body, free up your arms to swing while you drag your deer, now mush! like a sled dog.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,737 Senior Member
    Difference being, we can't spell sno in these parts of Hell.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 7,074 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    I am strongly considering one of those game carts after last night.

    Worth having around, for sure, but also spend twenty bucks on one of those molded plastic kiddie sleds. First used one last year, and have gotten out another couple of deer and a black bear on one since. They make the dragging SOOOOOO much easier! Their size allows them to be strapped to a pack, and they work pretty effectively as a "stretcher" on which a couple of guys can lift and load a deer-sized critter. A little creative para-cording to contain legs and horns, and you're in business. Figure there are probably places a wheeled game cart can't go - - add this and you've got a good work-saving combo.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 11,006 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Difference being, we can't spell sno in these parts of Hell.

    Drug them on lots of grass and gravel too, the snow does eventually melt around here. They slide nice on grass.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,807 Senior Member
    If you have to drag, consider a small light tarp next time. It makes the going a little "slicker", and protects what over it. Did you consider a drag stretcher?

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • justin10mmjustin10mm Senior Member Posts: 688 Senior Member
    I was surprised at the body size of my Axis as well. Every bit as big as a decent sized mule deer. I don't know his live weight but we took him whole to the processor and after being skinned, gutted, lower legs and head cut off he weighed 116 pounds.
  • jbohiojbohio Senior Member Posts: 5,509 Senior Member
    CHIRO1989 wrote: »
    Drug them on lots of grass and gravel too, the snow does eventually melt around here. They slide nice on grass.

    And down the side of a mountain, er, maybe that was roll, not slide.....
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 11,006 Senior Member
    jbohio wrote: »
    And down the side of a mountain, er, maybe that was roll, not slide.....

    Too much elk caused to much flex on the sled and the edges cught and off to the races we were.......
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,737 Senior Member
    As promised, the Postmortem.

    .460 S&W
    250gr Hornady XTP
    Muzzle Velocity: 2,388 fps
    Distance to Impact: 123 yrds
    Angle: Quartering Towards w/ Right Side / Struck On-Side Scapula Joint
    Impact Velocity- 1,727 fps (estimated)
    Distance Traveled After Impact: 0 yrds


    Entrance - Point of Right Shoulder
    Whitetail-460SampW250grXTP1_zpsc3a8a55c.jpg

    Entrance Under Hide
    Whitetail-460SampW250grXTP2_zps2b2f8991.jpg

    Entrance Under Shoulder (Note shattered Scapula in shoulder)
    Whitetail-460SampW250grXTP5_zps4fb81726.jpg

    Whitetail-460SampW250grXTP3_zps24b1b94f.jpg

    Entrance Under Shoulder (Meat Removed) - Broke 2 ribs.
    Whitetail-460SampW250grXTP6_zps8d5eb536.jpg

    Entrance to Thoracic Cavity - Ribs Removed
    Whitetail-460SampW250grXTP13_zps658d205f.jpg

    Right Lung / Front Lobe Destroyed - Esophagus/Carotid Destroyed
    Whitetail-460SampW250grXTP14_zpsc342d846.jpg

    Left Lung / Front Lobe Damaged - Arteries to Heart Severed
    Whitetail-460SampW250grXTP15_zps7f5b8b36.jpg

    Exit Under Shoulder - Meat Removed (Broke 2 Ribs)
    Whitetail-460SampW250grXTP12_zps12a777a6.jpg

    Exit Behind Shoulder
    Whitetail-460SampW250grXTP9_zps4d2e43ad.jpg

    Whitetail-460SampW250grXTP11_zps47a741fc.jpg

    Exit - Bullet Lodged in Hide
    Whitetail-460SampW250grXTP10_zpsdf0b1eba.jpg

    Whitetail-460SampW250grXTP8_zps68790af4.jpg

    Whitetail-460SampW250grXTP7_zpsafcf39d6.jpg


    Recovered Bullet
    250grXTP-1635grrecovered1_zpsa8384349.jpg

    250grXTP-1635grrecovered2_zpsfda68dd7.jpg


    We were operating at a higher muzzle velocity than supposedly recommended (I have not spoken directly to Hornady). Even so, the distance at impact resulted in a lowered impact velocity. The doe dropped instantly at the shot and only kicked a few times once on the ground. The bullet shattered the on side scapula at the lower joint and thickest point. It then broke two ribs before bisecting the lungs and severing the esophagus, carotid and arteries of the heart. Death was practically instantaneous due to immediate cessation of blood flow combined with depleted oxygen and hydrostatic shock. This deer took the full brunt of the bullet as it broke two ribs on exiting and lodged in the off side hide.

    I am not one prone to exaggeration in regards to terminal performance but, it flat out dumped her on the spot!

    Did the bullet come apart after hitting all those bones and bisecting the chest cavity? Yes.

    Did it "fail" in any way?

    Ask her.

    DSCN1024_zpse6a8acf4.jpg

    I am EXCEPTIONALLY pleased with the performance! I actually wanted a quartering shot to try and stop the bullet. Seeing what would happen at such a high velocity........I actually AIMED for the shoulder. Why? Because I had full confidence that it would perform.

    I would now like to shoot a deer closer and examine terminal performance from the 250gr XTP at a HIGHER impact velocity. Would I recommend this bullet for elk? No. But, I think it's about perfect for deer sized game from this cartridge. I see no reasonable shot failing on similar size game.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,737 Senior Member
    Are yall even interested in another photo essay on the terminal performance of the 162gr A-Max? Or, should I just skip the Axis postmortem?
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Farm Boy DeuceFarm Boy Deuce Senior Member Posts: 6,083 Senior Member
    That will knock em dead every time.
    I am afraid we forget sometime that the basic and simple things brings us the most pleasure.
    Dad 5-31-13
  • Farm Boy DeuceFarm Boy Deuce Senior Member Posts: 6,083 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Are yall even interested in another photo essay on the terminal performance of the 162gr A0-Max? Or, should I just skip the Axis postmortem?

    We need it for science.
    I am afraid we forget sometime that the basic and simple things brings us the most pleasure.
    Dad 5-31-13
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,737 Senior Member
    We need it for science.

    Alright, let me download them to Photobucket.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 11,006 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Are yall even interested in another photo essay on the terminal performance of the 162gr A-Max? Or, should I just skip the Axis postmortem?

    I am curious why it took two rounds and had you scratching your head.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,737 Senior Member
    Axis Buck @ 175 Yards
    7mm Remington magnum
    162gr Hornady A-Max
    MV - 3,195 fps
    IV - 2,971 fps (estimated)

    Note: I shot this buck twice, once on each side. I will combine the two bullet paths and attempt to not confuse you.

    Entrance 1st Shot, (lower bullet hole) Quartering Towards
    Exit 2nd Shot, (upper bullet hole) Quartering Away
    Axis-7mmRM162grA-Max2_zpsf4a18a8a.jpg

    Entrance 2nd Shot - Quartering Away
    Axis-7mmRM162grA-Max1_zps1e05f34b.jpg

    Entrance 1st / Exit 2nd - Under Hide
    Axis-7mmRM162grA-Max3_zps65095625.jpg

    Axis-7mmRM162grA-Max4_zpsd2e11501.jpg

    Entrance 2nd - Under Hide
    Axis-7mmRM162grA-Max14_zps0f6b0d90.jpg

    Entrance 1st / Exit 2nd - Under Shoulder
    Axis-7mmRM162grA-Max5_zps6f09e196.jpg

    Entrance 2nd - Under Shoulder (Meat Removed)
    Axis-7mmRM162grA-Max15_zpse35d4377.jpg

    Entrance 1st / Exit 2nd - Under Shoulder (Meat Removed / Broke 3 Ribs)
    Axis-7mmRM162grA-Max6_zpsffaa36ac.jpg

    Axis-7mmRM162grA-Max7_zps3c3eaf6a.jpg

    Entrance 1st / Exit 2nd - Ribs Removed
    Axis-7mmRM162grA-Max8_zpsd1dc267e.jpg

    Entrance 1st / Exit 2nd - Left Side Lung
    Axis-7mmRM162grA-Max9_zps9dbe8506.jpg

    Entrance 2nd - Right Side Lung
    Axis-7mmRM162grA-Max10_zpsc7a8e561.jpg

    The first shot quartered back, striking the left side lung and the inside/rear of the right lung. It then proceeded through the diaphragm and through the liver to lodge somewhere in the stomach or flank. The bullet was not recovered. I realized afterwards, that he was not quartering to me as much as I thought, so I only really hit one lung for the most part. But, it was a center punch to the left lung and liver. He rand approximately 40 yards and stopped. In hindsight, he likely would have gone down right there within a few moments as the impact took effect and his oxygen depleated, then bloodpressure dropped from the damaged liver. But, not knowing that at the time, I shot him again. The second shot bisecting both lungs and exiting within inches of the 1st shots entrance.

    Note: Two 162gr A-Max bullets from a 7mm Mag exiting and entering within inches of each other absolutely DESTROY a shoulder! That hole was bigger than my Carney hand!!!

    I did not need that second shot. But, I didn't know it at the time. He was dead on his feet when I hit him the second time. On being struck by the second bullet, he ran an additional 20ish yards and dropped for good.

    They were both good hits and the bullets performed perfectly. However, there were no major bones struck and the heart was still intact. Therefore, with no structural damage to the support system and the engine still pumping........he stayed on his feet until oxygen depleted. Which took a surprisingly long time in reality.

    See, my rifle has a single shot follower in the magazine because I seat my bullets longer than mag length. So, after the first shot, I followed him in the scope until he stopped. Deciding to shoot him again.......I had to reach back behind me into my ruck and grab another cartridge while I watched him through the scope at the same time (gotta love that Spec-Rest). Load the rifle............confirm my POA.........and shoot him again. At my best guess, this took about 15 seconds. I think he was already nearing the end of his oxygen as he stood there wondering what happened. The second impact sparked a last burst of adrenaline to propel him the remaining 20ish yards where he dropped.

    So, I didn't need the second shot. But, I didn't KNOW I didn't need the second shot...............and i wasn't taking any chances.

    So, there you have it.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 8,726 Senior Member
    Once again, Most Excellent!

    Didn't realize your rifle was set up as a single shot. That was pretty quick on the follow up, especially for not having another round on the stock or in hand.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • Farm Boy DeuceFarm Boy Deuce Senior Member Posts: 6,083 Senior Member
    Excellent report. Thank you sir.

    You know I am beginning to think you are onto something using these target bullets for hunting.:tooth:
    I am afraid we forget sometime that the basic and simple things brings us the most pleasure.
    Dad 5-31-13
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 7,074 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    As promised, the Postmortem.

    Whitetail Doe @ 123 yards
    .460 S&W
    250gr Hornady XTP
    MV - 2,250 fps (estimated)
    IV - 1,615 fps (estimated)

    Did the bullet come apart after hitting all those bones and bisecting the chest cavity? Yes.

    Did it "fail" in any way?

    I'm not tickled by the result, but it certainly is one of those situations where you would ask the Doubting Thomas "At what point in the instantaneous death of this deer did this bullet 'fail'?"
    Zee wrote: »
    I would now like to shoot a deer closer and examine terminal performance from the 250gr XTP at a HIGHER impact velocity.

    I think that bullet is going to do better as a .45Colt/Casull projectile. Given the impact speed, you essentially hit that doe with a point-blank shot from a +P /rifle length .44 magnum. It's a real testament to Hornady that slug held together as well as it did.

    I believe by increasing the speed, you'll see something similar to the gelatin tests we did with 5.56 Nato FMJ rounds - we got MORE penetration with the lower velocities generated by the 16" carbine, 14" M4 and 11" Commando than we did with the 20" rifle and 24" varminter simply because the impact speeds from the longer guns were beyond the stress limits of the bullet. They ALL tumbled, as they were designed to do, but as they turned sideways, there was enough energy in the rifle rounds to break them apart at the cannelure and start major fragmentation. My memory is fuzzy at this point, but I seem to recall significantly less fragmentation with the 16", less or none with the M4, and none at all with the Commando.

    But difficult to say without further testing - you hit a fair amount of bone. Might be worth calling up some milk jugs to make the supreme sacrifice in comparing this bullet at warp speed vs. 1/2 impulse power. You'll want a row of at least 10 of them. . . and a raincoat.:tooth:

    Not much to add for the axis deer except "Damn! Tough animal!"
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • jbohiojbohio Senior Member Posts: 5,509 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    I'm not tickled by the result, but it certainly is one of those situations where you would ask the Doubting Thomas "At what point in the instantaneous death of this deer did this bullet 'fail'?"



    I think that bullet is going to do better as a .45Colt/Casull projectile. Given the impact speed, you essentially hit that doe with a point-blank shot from a +P /rifle length .44 magnum. It's a real testament to Hornady that slug held together as well as it did.

    I believe by increasing the speed, you'll see something similar to the gelatin tests we did with 5.56 Nato FMJ rounds - we got MORE penetration with the lower velocities generated by the 16" carbine, 14" M4 and 11" Commando than we did with the 20" rifle and 24" varminter simply because the impact speeds from the longer guns were beyond the stress limits of the bullet. They ALL tumbled, as they were designed to do, but as they turned sideways, there was enough energy in the rifle rounds to break them apart at the cannelure and start major fragmentation. My memory is fuzzy at this point, but I seem to recall significantly less fragmentation with the 16", less or none with the M4, and none at all with the Commando.

    But difficult to say without further testing - you hit a fair amount of bone. Might be worth calling up some milk jugs to make the supreme sacrifice in comparing this bullet at warp speed vs. 1/2 impulse power. You'll want a row of at least 10 of them. . . and a raincoat.:tooth:

    Not much to add for the axis deer except "Damn! Tough animal!"

    We did more testing, earlier. Other than .022 dia, , and 10 gr, it's essentially the same bullet, going faster, less bone.
    http://forums.gunsandammo.com/showthread.php?22086-Field-Report-Ruger-77-44-Hornady-XTP-and-My-Son-s-First-Deer!
    We chrono'd the load the next day, for science.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,737 Senior Member
    BigDanS wrote: »
    If you have to drag, consider a small light tarp next time. It makes the going a little "slicker", and protects what over it. Did you consider a drag stretcher?

    D

    Something like this is what I'd like.

    http://www.midwayusa.com/product/415759/ameristep-non-typical-folding-packable-deer-cart-aluminum-tan-and-black?cm_vc=ProductFinding
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,807 Senior Member
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,737 Senior Member
    That's still dragging. If I'm going to drag........I'll drag. If I'm going to cheat........I want full **** cheating!! Like, with a cart.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,177 Senior Member
    If you can't load them directly into the truck...those carts are the best thing since sliced bread.
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,596 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    That's still dragging. If I'm going to drag........I'll drag. If I'm going to cheat........I want full **** cheating!! Like, with a cart.

    Exactly. Especially where you are hunting. Nice and flat. In the woods where you have a lot of obstacles, bigger wheels help........

    51%2BDgO1o5UL._SY355_.jpg
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 11,006 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    That's still dragging. If I'm going to drag........I'll drag. If I'm going to cheat........I want full **** cheating!! Like, with a cart.

    You ARE a knuckle dragger, try to help a guy and he wants to wreck his hide anyway. You better have a cart next time you shoot a nice one like that Axis or I will fart in your general direction.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • HvyMaxHvyMax Senior Member Posts: 1,786 Senior Member
    Congrats!!! You need a 4wheeler with one of those hoist things. Even just the 4 wheeler makes life easier.
    Wal Mart where the discriminating white trash shop.
    Paddle faster!!! I hear banjos.
    Reason for editing: correcting my auto correct
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,706 Senior Member
    Everyone is mentioning ways to make an animal slide easier but what about the other end of the rope? I had a friend get me to try the cheap drag harnesses from Wally World. They run about five bucks and they work surprisingly well. They come with a cheap, short piece of cord that I replace with a 15ft piece of heavier rope and they bundle up pretty small in my pack. I tie the front legs together with the rope and tie them close to the neck and then to the harness. I hunt pretty deep in the woods most of the time and have drug deer and hogs some pretty large distances with the thing. It distributes the weight across your back and shoulders and makes it immeasurably easier to drag an animal as once you get the animal moving and, you just walk at about a normal pace. As long as you don't stop, the animal will slide pretty easy. I've drug a few animals by just holding on to the rope or wrapping the rope over my shoulder and I would have to keep stopping to rest my shoulder and arms but with this thing there is little strain on any one part of your body. I'll never walk into the woods without on again.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,122 Senior Member
    Damn fine hunt sir. Great Axis buck!! A little bit of lady luck never hurt. Glad you got to blood the .460S&W and your 7mm Mag in the same sitting.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,327 Senior Member
    Excellent hunt and writeup, bud! Congrats on the Axis. Very nice looking deer. Glad the XTP worked for you. No doubt about that. If you ever have the urge to give it a try, I wonder how the 240 XTP-Mag would perform. I have always planned on using the 240 for deer and the 300 for Elk. At one point, I wondered how they'd hold up. I belive I won't worry about that any more now. I'll just go forward with the plan and put in for hunts next year.....
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