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Idaho woman accidentally shot and killed by 2-year-old in Wal-Mart

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Replies

  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 18,139 Senior Member
    This death has nothing to do with maintaining control of your firearm, it is about safeties.:roll:

    Oh bull crap...if the woman had her handgun in a proper holster on her person or zipped up in a dedicated gun pocket in a proper concealed carry purse...the presence or lack of a safety and whether is was engaged or not would have been rendered moot. So yes...it has much to do with maintaining control of your firearm....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    I thought the sarcasm was evident, but I guess not.
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,721 Senior Member
    I thought the sarcasm was evident, but I guess not.

    There is that also.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • VargetVarget Member Posts: 99 Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    :that:
    No amount of safeties will prevent a negligent discharge. The ONLY installed safety that matters is the one installed between the ears.

    Woman should not have left purse with pistol in shopping cart with child. This is a gross failure of keeping the firearm out of the reach of the child. And this resulted in the tragedy that could have been avoided.

    Edit to add: any revolver or semiauto pistol can be made safe for the safe handling challenged by carrying with the cylinder empty in the case of the revolver, or the chamber empty and magazine removed in the case of the semiauto. But I still bet someone would have a ND doing that.

    I disagree in this particular case, a manual safety would have prevented this.
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,721 Senior Member
    Varget wrote: »
    I disagree in this particular case, a manual safety would have prevented this.

    You know this how??
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Varget wrote: »
    I disagree in this particular case, a manual safety would have prevented this.

    Totally disagree. The woman having control of the firearm by having it on her person in a holster, or in her purse on her arm would have prevented this. Failure to keep the firearm out of the reach of the child was the cause of the accident; she left the firearm within reach of a curious and probably bored child.

    Childproof caps on prescription bottles don't work as intended, either. Keeping prescription medicines under lock and key and out of reach of children works, though.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • VargetVarget Member Posts: 99 Member
    Perfect example tennmike, but I bet you would be surprised at actually how often those childproof caps really do work.
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,721 Senior Member
    Varget wrote: »
    Perfect example tennmike, but I bet you would be surprised at actually how often those childproof caps really do work.

    A unsupervised child can defeat a lot of safety devices. I chose not to temp fate and kept dangerous items out of the hands of little ones even if they are childproof. I wonder how often trigger locks have worked?
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Varget wrote: »
    Perfect example tennmike, but I bet you would be surprised at actually how often those childproof caps really do work.

    Those childproof caps do work, sometimes arthritic / elderly patients can't access their medications and have to call someone and wait for help to arrive in time.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,632 Senior Member
    Varget wrote: »
    I disagree in this particular case, a manual safety would have prevented this.


    Many things would have prevented this. She could have carried the pistol unloaded, as some have advocated. She could have used a trigger lock. She could have bought a pistol with multiple safeties. She could have abstained from carrying or even owning a gun. She could have decided to not have a child. Etc. etc. ad nauseum.

    The reason she is dead and her child is motherless (not to mention emotionally damaged) is because she was CARELESS. If she had exhibited just a little care, we wouldn't be arguing about what safety would be best to prevent a toddler from firing a gun he never should have had in the first place.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    coolgunguy wrote: »
    Many things would have prevented this. She could have carried the pistol unloaded, as some have advocated. She could have used a trigger lock. She could have bought a pistol with multiple safeties. She could have abstained from carrying or even owning a gun. She could have decided to not have a child. Etc. etc. ad nauseum.

    The reason she is dead and her child is motherless (not to mention emotionally damaged) is because she was CARELESS. If she had exhibited just a little care, we wouldn't be arguing about what safety would be best to prevent a toddler from firing a gun he never should have had in the first place.

    And gun control freaks are using this incident.

    No amount of manual safeties can substitute for safe gun use and keeping guns out of the access of two year old children.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Varget wrote: »
    I disagree in this particular case, a manual safety would have prevented this.
    tennmike wrote: »
    Totally disagree. The woman having control of the firearm by having it on her person in a holster, or in her purse on her arm would have prevented this. Failure to keep the firearm out of the reach of the child was the cause of the accident; she left the firearm within reach of a curious and probably bored child.

    You're both right, for different reasons.

    Varget and others here (aside from the joking posts) who say that a manual safety would have prevented the kid from firing the pistol are probably correct -- of course we can never know for certain, but it's very likely that this little kid was just "playing guns" and did what kids do -- go "boom" with a gun. And it's reasonable to assume that the kid wouldn't have known enough to flip off a manual safety first, or even accidentally.

    However, on a larger view, tennmike is making the correct point overall. That is, leaving a loaded gun within easy reach of a child and not having that gun in 100% control is the major issue here. It's irresponsible to hope that a manual safety is a good substitute for keeping that gun away from the kid in the first place. As was said, with the purse on the woman's arm or shoulder.

    So yeah, a manual safety might have actually prevented this specific accident, but the larger issue here is that the gun was within easy grasp of a child, safety or not.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    Those childproof caps do work, sometimes arthritic / elderly patients can't access their medications and have to call someone and wait for help to arrive in time.

    Well, on a side issue, all you need to do is get the scripts put in old-style non-safety bottles for you. All pharms will do this for older patients where there are no kids in the home.

    Most of my scripts are from Walgreen and their little push-flip catch on their bottles is easy to operate. Last fall, after my surgery, I had a short term script for Tylenol w. Codeine (great stuff!) and got it from another pharmacy. The push-down-to-open was impossible to work. A pair of channelock pliers solved that problem asap. Of course I had to put a fold of foil over the now-busted top of the bottle, ha ha.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Buford wrote: »
    A unsupervised child can defeat a lot of safety devices. I chose not to temp fate and kept dangerous items out of the hands of little ones even if they are childproof. I wonder how often trigger locks have worked?

    Well, "real" trigger locks work great -- they fit over the trigger guard and you can't pull the trigger until the gadget is removed, like the "boot" for illegally parked cars. Except that if you ever need the gun, you're screwed.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    Well, "real" trigger locks work great -- they fit over the trigger guard and you can't pull the trigger until the gadget is removed, like the "boot" for illegally parked cars. Except that if you ever need the gun, you're screwed.
    I used those once. Then I forgot the key. It literally took two seconds with a flat head screwdriver to take it off.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    I bought a shotgun very cheap because the owner had lost the key for the trigger lock, it took me all of a minute to get it off and I did not even mar or scratch the plastic trigger guard while taking it off.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Now that I mull over this tragic incident and as we review it in this forum, it reminds me of the board of inquiry convened in the movie " Crimson Tide" and the board is discussing the events leading up to the mutiny, they never reached a definitive conclusion either, in their words, "one heck of a mess" and something that will be pondered for many years afterwards.......".

    There is nothing casual about gun safety and gun ownership and if folks get too complacent or comfortable or lackadaisical about gun safety, tragedies such as this one will continue to occur at an alarming rate.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    I bought a shotgun very cheap because the owner had lost the key for the trigger lock, it took me all of a minute to get it off and I did not even mar or scratch the plastic trigger guard while taking it off.

    Oh, well, of course. I do however think the focus is on whether trigger locks may prevent little kids from firing the gun. I'd say yes, but regardless, trigger locks are a nuisance and a bad way to prevent this sort of thing. If kids are actually in the home or wherever, I'd say that a locked box w. quick open finger-press pattern -- any sort of newer technology lock -- is the best solution.

    When I had 2 very grabby and very typically active boys in my house (I married a gal w. 2 boys -- instant family!) I regrettably locked the 2 handguns I had in a big toolbox onto which I'd added a nicely heavy hasp and a big key lock. The loaded handguns were in the top tray, the extra ammo and shotgun ammo in the bottom. It was totally slow to get into for emergencies, but there are times that safety overreaches access. This was prior to the newer types of quick-access lock boxes.
  • tv_racin_fantv_racin_fan Senior Member Posts: 661 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    Oh bull crap...if the woman had her handgun in a proper holster on her person or zipped up in a dedicated gun pocket in a proper concealed carry purse...the presence or lack of a safety and whether is was engaged or not would have been rendered moot. So yes...it has much to do with maintaining control of your firearm....

    According to the article I read the purse in question was indeed one made to have a handgun in a separate zipped pocket designed and built just for that purpose. The article stated that the purse was a Christmas gift.
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,632 Senior Member
    According to the article I read the purse in question was indeed one made to have a handgun in a separate zipped pocket designed and built just for that purpose. The article stated that the purse was a Christmas gift.


    Indeed it was, but the point is that the purse wasn't on her shoulder, it was sitting in the cart within easy reach of a (I'm assuming, don't know if the age was stated) toddler. The kid didn't outsmart the purse, his mother outsmarted herself into thinking special pocket on the purse was all that was required. She was wrong. If you don't have the gun ON YOUR PERSON you are not in control of your weapon. Period. Heck, for some folks...not even then.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    I agree, hence why I do not like purses or ankle holsters for carry for obviously different reasons.

    That is why I really prefer training in the manner of LE, one must always be in direct control of ones sidearm or one should not carry.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    coolgunguy wrote: »
    Indeed it was, but the point is that the purse wasn't on her shoulder, it was sitting in the cart within easy reach of a (I'm assuming, don't know if the age was stated) toddler. The kid didn't outsmart the purse, his mother outsmarted herself into thinking special pocket on the purse was all that was required. She was wrong. If you don't have the gun ON YOUR PERSON you are not in control of your weapon. Period. Heck, for some folks...not even then.

    I think you've summed it up nicely. I do however think that if a woman (or man) has the gun in a shoulder bag and that bag is actually on the shoulder (therefore, on the person as you say, even if not in the clothing) that's okay. For her to leave the gun-holding purse off her body and into the cart, that broke the regular rules of concealed carry.

    I think also that we got a bit distracted re. external gun safeties. Although yeah, a flip safety might have prevented the kid from firing the pistol, the critical factor was that the woman had allowed the kid to get to the pistol in the first place, caused primarily from her not having the gun on her person. Having the gun in a carry bag but that bag being on the person's shoulder counts as okay.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    I don't agree, as I have stated, direct control does not include purses that can be laid down or yanked off, However, in the end, each person must decide what they will or will not do, even if it is an unwise choice or choices.

    There is substantial reason no law enforcement agency approves carry in shoulder bags.

    There is good reason for this, history is a hard teacher, also a good reason not to use ankle holsters.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
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