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When was the last time you heard a liberal debate his/her ideology?

bisleybisley Senior MemberPosts: 10,813 Senior Member
It's been decades.

I can't precisely answer the question of when, but I do have an opinion about why. I think it should be obvious to anyone who knows a little of the history of the politics of this country.

For a long time, politicians didn't want to be called progressives, because that was a 'code' associated with communism during the McCarthy era, so, many just started calling themselves 'liberals.' That was safe enough, because the founding fathers were liberals, by the standards of that time.

Then, some politicians that needed to run as Democrats did not want be called liberals, because the constituencies they wanted to serve contained too many conservatives, who often associated the term 'liberal' with the northeastern intellectual elite in both parties.

Many, like the Clintons, started calling themselves 'progressives,' because the new generation they wanted to appeal to did not remember the association of the word to communism, and they could claim that it should be compared to the ideologies of the Roosevelts and Woodrow Wilson. They also reviled conservatives for trying to 'label' people, and that was a fad of the left that caught on for awhile. This was the advent of runaway political correctness, in which only the left was allowed to label people.

Now, when there are virtually no conservatives left within the Democrat(ic) Party, everyone is fine with the term liberal, as long as you don't try too hard to make them define it. It's like trying to get them to list all of their economic and foreign policy accomplishments for the last thirty years. They just won't do it. Most of their 'accomplishments' are of a social nature, many of which were actually accomplished with court rulings, and we are still waiting for the evidence that any of them have actually worked....but that's a different argument.

Socialism is still a dirty word to most of the American public (that know what it is), just as conservatism is becoming a dirty word, now, to those that don't think socialism is bad. No liberal I have ever listened to will even mention the word, except to try to argue that it isn't what his party stands for. This is despite an obsession with creating a gigantic central government that controls everything we eat, drink, smoke, drive, shoot, inject into our veins, and speak, complete with government takeovers of private industry, socialized medicine, gigantic federal police agencies of every type, and a military and intelligence agencies that are being politicized by the purging of high ranking officers.

Discussions of one's ideology reveal such things, and they must be avoided at all cost, so trot out the straw-man.

Liberals are running a race with the dictionary, in a way. They have to keep redefining the language to keep their constituency from finding out what they are up to, because if they ever do, the ones who understand it and that do actually still care about being free, will abandon them. Nobody minded too much, when the country was so prosperous that we believed it would last forever, regardless of how much of our tax dollars the government pissed off. But that prosperity is getting used up quickly, now, and the people that never cared before will be asking why, someday. It's been coming for years, but it is starting to snowball, now, and nobody knows how to stop it. You can label it any -ism that you want, but they all suck.
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Replies

  • pjames777pjames777 Senior Member Posts: 1,421 Senior Member
    Hard to debate "newspeak" as everything is redefined and you better damn well accept "their" definition.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,813 Senior Member
    Dude - you read this post in 4 minutes? It took me thirty to write it. Please elaborate on your comment. :bang:
  • shushshush Senior Member Posts: 6,259 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    Dude - you read this post in 4 minutes? It took me thirty to write it. Please elaborate on your comment. :bang:


    Sam, are you off the medication again? :devil: :jester:


    I have no fear, I am immune to your political wiles.

    bisley wrote: »
    ............to those that don't think socialism is bad. No liberal I have ever listened to will even mention the word, except to try to argue that it isn't what his party stands for. This is despite an obsession with creating a gigantic central government that controls everything we eat, drink, smoke, drive, shoot, inject into our veins, and speak, complete with government takeovers of private industry, socialized medicine, gigantic federal police agencies of every type, and a military and intelligence agencies that are being politicized by the purging of high ranking officers...........




    You have just described, very well by they way, the rollacoaster ride of to and fro,
    that has been my beloved governments for most of my 64 years. :tooth:


    PS.

    :topic:

    The 'Brie cheese loaf ' is to be dusted off again for tonight,

    may get more than a smell this year.

    Not going anywhere or picking anybody up, so far.

    Very, very small, food, drinks and family, I hope.

    Dave.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    Wasn't it George Orwell in "1984" who described a government that controlled the meaning of words, and could alter them at will to define its enemies in whatever way it chose? "The Eurasians have been our allies forever, and the Eastasians have been our enemies- - - - - -no, wait, it's the other way around- - - - -!" Sounds a lot like our current crop of politicians, and the lines are getting progressively more blurry between the choices we have. Maybe it's time to refresh the tree of liberty.
    Jerry
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,813 Senior Member
    George Orwell had a lot of stuff figured out. He just made the same mistakes that weather predictors are plagued with - they have a good idea of what is going to happen - they just aren't quite sure when.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,813 Senior Member
    shush wrote: »
    PS.

    :topic:

    The 'Brie cheese loaf ' is to be dusted off again for tonight,

    may get more than a smell this year.

    Not going anywhere or picking anybody up, so far.

    Very, very small, food, drinks and family, I hope.

    Dave.

    Mrs. Bisley made the brie loaf again this year (at my request), along with the Yorkshire pudding. The brie loaf actually survived the Christmas meal - I had a wedge of it for breakfast with a pot of coffee.

    I think the Yorkshire pudding is now a new family tradition. It goes well with the rib roast, and everybody likes something different from our usual fare, for Christmas dinner.
  • shushshush Senior Member Posts: 6,259 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    Mrs. Bisley made the brie loaf again this year (at my request), along with the Yorkshire pudding. The brie loaf actually survived the Christmas meal - I had a wedge of it for breakfast with a pot of coffee.

    I think the Yorkshire pudding is now a new family tradition. It goes well with the rib roast, and everybody likes something different from our usual fare, for Christmas dinner.


    Great minds think alike. :up:

    No. 1 son is making his toad in the hole.

    Yorkshire pudding with Lincolnshire sausages placed within and onion gravy.

    No. 2 son is doing his chilli salmon steaks.

    Mrs Shush is doing side dishes.

    Me, I am doing nowt. :applause:
  • pjames777pjames777 Senior Member Posts: 1,421 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    Dude - you read this post in 4 minutes? It took me thirty to write it. Please elaborate on your comment. :bang:

    You need a faster typing skills! lol

    Illegal alien is now undocumented worker......welfare is now Entitlement.....etc, etc....then throw in the race card at every opportunity and disparage your opponents character all the while ignoring the facts....
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    pjames777 wrote: »
    You need a faster typing skills! lol

    Illegal alien is now undocumented worker......welfare is now Entitlement.....etc, etc....then throw in the race card at every opportunity and disparage your opponents character all the while ignoring the facts....

    A shop lifter is an undocumented shopper. The whole country is going bananas with PC BS.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    Wasn't it George Orwell in "1984" who described a government that controlled the meaning of words, and could alter them at will to define its enemies in whatever way it chose? "The Eurasians have been our allies forever, and the Eastasians have been our enemies- - - - - -no, wait, it's the other way around- - - - -!" Sounds a lot like our current crop of politicians, and the lines are getting progressively more blurry between the choices we have. Maybe it's time to refresh the tree of liberty.
    Jerry

    Doublethink

    “Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.”
    ― George Orwell, 1984
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    Hmmmm- - - - -change that to demo-think, and Curious George could be Big Brother!
    Jerry
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    I hate any discourse with liberals,

    They will drag you down to their level and beat you to death with your own opinion.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,813 Senior Member
    pjames777 wrote: »
    You need a faster typing skills! lol

    Illegal alien is now undocumented worker......welfare is now Entitlement.....etc, etc....then throw in the race card at every opportunity and disparage your opponents character all the while ignoring the facts....

    Thanks! You ain't wrong about the typing skills, or anything else you said. :up:
  • HvyMaxHvyMax Senior Member Posts: 1,826 Senior Member
    Debating liberals is my favorite pastime. I can usually send them off the deep end in minutes. Just by pointing out that they support Jim Crow policies and the party of the Klan throws them off and how every genocidal period in history started with people like them. Mindless good intentions when exposed to the truth always fall apart. I am so happy to be as large as I am or I would have been in trouble many times.
    Wal Mart where the discriminating white trash shop.
    Paddle faster!!! I hear banjos.
    Reason for editing: correcting my auto correct
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,813 Senior Member
    HvyMax wrote: »
    Debating liberals is my favorite pastime. I can usually send them off the deep end in minutes. Just by pointing out that they support Jim Crow policies and the party of the Klan throws them off and how every genocidal period in history started with people like them. Mindless good intentions when exposed to the truth always fall apart. I am so happy to be as large as I am or I would have been in trouble many times.

    It is a waste of time to try to debate with anyone who does nothing but put up straw-man arguments to deflect the original topic, and this is the way liberal politicians and their spokesmen make their livings. I can still have a discussion with a hardcore liberal, if we can both stipulate to a few facts, and keep things in general terms. I won't play the source game, because I just don't pay enough attention to the minutiae any more. Many are like defense lawyers who are defending an obviously guilty client - they won't stipulate to anything, no matter how commonly accepted it is as fact, and they rely heavily on the minutiae to deflect the argument.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 24,986 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    Doublethink

    “Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.”
    ― George Orwell, 1984
    Yep.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
    )O(
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    shush wrote: »
    Great minds think alike. :up:

    No. 1 son is making his toad in the hole.

    Yorkshire pudding with Lincolnshire sausages placed within and onion gravy.

    No. 2 son is doing his chilli salmon steaks.

    Mrs Shush is doing side dishes.

    Me, I am doing nowt. :applause:

    I've been there, done that and you and Bisley are making me hungry as hell!!!

    The guys that shot Nilgai did share it with those of us not so fortunate. So I have a roast here I can cook.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,933 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    It is a waste of time to try to debate with anyone who does nothing but put up straw-man arguments to deflect the original topic, and this is the way liberal politicians and their spokesmen make their livings. I can still have a discussion with a hardcore liberal, if we can both stipulate to a few facts, and keep things in general terms. I won't play the source game, because I just don't pay enough attention to the minutiae any more. Many are like defense lawyers who are defending an obviously guilty client - they won't stipulate to anything, no matter how commonly accepted it is as fact, and they rely heavily on the minutiae to deflect the argument.
    You submitted my planned response nearly word for word. "Debate" is not in the vocabulary of a thoroughly brainwashed hardcore liberal. They will only reply with approved party line dogma. "It's always the fault of Bush, Conservatives, Corporations, etc."
  • HvyMaxHvyMax Senior Member Posts: 1,826 Senior Member
    sgtrock21 wrote: »
    You submitted my planned response nearly word for word. "Debate" is not in the vocabulary of a thoroughly brainwashed hardcore liberal. They will only reply with approved party line dogma. "It's always the fault of Bush, Conservatives, Corporations, etc."

    But it is fun to send them completely off the deep end. I don't know how many times I have had them go to jump in my face only to realize that was my chest they were in. I have reduced others to tears. It is great fun. They go around looking for things to offend them and I would never let them be dissapointed.
    Wal Mart where the discriminating white trash shop.
    Paddle faster!!! I hear banjos.
    Reason for editing: correcting my auto correct
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,813 Senior Member
    HvyMax wrote: »
    But it is fun to send them completely off the deep end. I don't know how many times I have had them go to jump in my face only to realize that was my chest they were in. I have reduced others to tears. It is great fun. They go around looking for things to offend them and I would never let them be dissapointed.

    Well, I'm a large man, too, but I expend more effort trying not to intimidate the people I'm having a disagreement with. It contaminates any logic that you try to bring to the discussion, and all that is accomplished is that the person who is intimidated immediately dislikes you and wants to be somewhere else - discussion over, no points made, period.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,877 Senior Member
    I think the reason some of us don't hear liberals debate their ideology is because we avoid liberals as much as we can, be it socially or by changing the channel...
    I'm just here for snark.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    shush wrote: »
    Sam, are you off the medication again? :devil: :jester:

    Dave.

    Ah, yet another recruit to my fan club. Just so he pays his dues!

    I'm soooo fortunate, to have loyal followers who don't even wait till I've posted a comment before they react on my behalf. I really ought to just sit back and let them write all my postings for me!
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    It's been decades.

    etc etc.

    Excellent post, Bis!

    Taking another tack on the thread title, I've found that liberals are nearly always either unable or unwilling to debate their beliefs.

    They are so fixated on the "fact" that they are right that if you offer any sort of challenge to them, actually bringing up a point that may contradict their mantra, they become angry and petulant, like a little spoiled kid.

    A couple months ago I was sitting in my fave Brit Pub hangout, and this pal of mine -- actually a nice, intelligent guy, but a total liberal -- remarked that the USA was the most horrible country in the world, the worst nation of all. And I simply tried to point out to him that in some Muslim controlled nations, his very nice girlfriend sitting here would be stoned to death for "daring" to sit at a bar with men and show her arms and face in public. And he got so angry that he grabbed his beer and stomped all the way down the bar to the corner seat, furthest away he could go, and sat there frowning at his beer.

    I just shrugged and of course didn't pursue the topic. And a few days later he was all smiles again.

    But all the liberals I know -- maybe alphasig is an exception -- he'd likely be disenfranchised from liberal membership if they knew -- but liberals are generally incapable of actually debating their beliefs openly and fairly.

    I know that years ago I would have pursued my liberal bar pal just to get his dander up, but nowadays I simply click it off and smile. Bless 'em!
  • HvyMaxHvyMax Senior Member Posts: 1,826 Senior Member
    My favorite is when they call me a racist. I voted for Allan Keyes in two presidential primaries and would gladly support anyone who is the most conservative running no matter their color while they would support a klansman because he is a Democrat. Then I lay in on the Jim Crow policies they support like Gun control and the party of the Klan. If you use Alinsky's rules against them they are defenseless. It is seriously one of the most satisfying things I can think to do. Sad thing is most are too dim to engage in debate and it is probably best if they don't.
    Wal Mart where the discriminating white trash shop.
    Paddle faster!!! I hear banjos.
    Reason for editing: correcting my auto correct
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    When I was younger and more confrontational, I'd debate a liberal at the drop of a cap. Nowadays I just nod and smile most times. It's just not worth it, because it wastes time that you can be sleeping or engaged in other productive pursuits. And you will never "win" the debate because liberals don't use logic or thought -- they use emotion and mindless adherence to unproven and rancid beliefs and won't be persuaded.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    I've got it down to a science in my replies to liberals.

    1. When they say anything about gun control my reply is "You're a racist", and then I explain why.
    2. Entitlements gets a "You're a socialist/communist" and then I explain why.
    3. More government control gets a "You're a totalitarian" and then I explain why.

    If they throw the "racist card" on me first, then I break out the Sailor's Book of Magic Words and Phrases and detail their lineage from when their ancestors crawled out from under a rock to present and explaining in detail why they have the cognitive skills of a demented amoeba. This one never fails to shut them down cold. :tooth:
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    So, in other words, a liberal is an unwashed fellator with Oedipal tendencies and canine ancestry?
    :devil:
    Jerry
  • HvyMaxHvyMax Senior Member Posts: 1,826 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    So, in other words, a liberal is an unwashed fellator with Oedipal tendencies and canine ancestry?
    :devil:
    Jerry
    :that:
    Wal Mart where the discriminating white trash shop.
    Paddle faster!!! I hear banjos.
    Reason for editing: correcting my auto correct
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    A Liberal person USED to be an open minded person who would listen to all sides of a debate respectfully and make intelligent responses based on their viewpoint when it was their turn to talk, not resort to name calling and a closed mindedness that real bigots display. Likewise, I used to enjoy listening to William F. Buckley Jr. debate as a gentlemen on the Firing Line and on the Cavett Show.

    Times have changed.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    So, in other words, a liberal is an unwashed fellator with Oedipal tendencies and canine ancestry?
    :devil:
    Jerry

    In a manner of speaking, yes. I prefer to use language that would shock a Marine drill instructor, though. :rotflmao:
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
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