Who needs guns when you have corn?

13

Replies

  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 10,723 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    I'm just not sure it's better to have kids throwing cans of food at terrorists. To me, it's better to lock the door and deny them access. This worked at the Va Tech shooting. A door wedge is cheap and would stand up to anything a shooter is likely to have with him.

    The food donation is a great idea, of course. But if this principal is dedicated to having kids throw things at shooters, she should get enough scissors for each student to have a pair (since knives are not legal) keep them in her desk and in case of a shooter, issue the scissors to throw. One and done. At least they're sharp.

    Sometimes it's hard to take some people seriously. I can't believe this idea was even considered. Throwing cans of food? This smacks of a liberal answer, either that or it's a joke. If the principal is THAT worried about a shooter, she should secretly carry a gun, but I doubt this fits her agenda. Instead, she puts the onus on middle school students to fend for themselves. Who's the responsible one in this situation? Who would be more likely to stop an armed terrorist, a kid throwing a can of peas, or a woman with a gun? So long as she didn't show it around, no one would ever know she was armed.

    Someone almost said it earlier; the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. Not with a can of beans.

    I am thinking the principal visualizes children trapped in a class room with an armed intruder breaking into their classroom and the kids chucking cans as the intruder enters the room, a last ditch thing, but I have been wrong before. I am about 90-120 seconds from my kids school from my front door to the schools if I am standing on it, if the alarm goes up, I won't be the only parent. If a can of peas or a ballpoint pen slows the intruder down, more folks with better mind sets will have more time to get up and rolling in the right direction.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,053 Senior Member
    Gene-- If I thought this was Plan A in defending the school, I would be right along side of you denouncing it as one of the stupidest plans out there. I am going on the assumption that the bad guy has gone beyond what was supposed to be a locked school with locked classroom doors and any other security protocol that the school had in place and is in the classroom right then and there. Essentially Plan A-J has failed. Then it is time to implement Plan K, which is throwing stuff at an attacker.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,053 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Against a gun?
    It could be against a tank for all I care. I may even get lucky and scratch the paint-- better than I could do hiding under a desk.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,041 Senior Member
    The defense of children is the responsibility of adults. Period. To think anything else is whistling past the graveyard and ignoring OUR responsibility as adults. The basic responsibility, in fact.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,053 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    The defense of children is the responsibility of adults. Period. To think anything else is whistling past the graveyard and ignoring OUR responsibility as adults. The basic responsibility, in fact.
    I agree. In a perfect world we could protect them all the time and our measures to protect them would not fail. It is not a perfect world.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,041 Senior Member
    The answer to an imperfect world is to make the world better. It's up to us if not to totally prevent terrorists, of any kind, then to come up with a credible answer to a threat. Not be satisfied with kids throwing cans. If this method of self defense was promoted for citizens on the street, even as a last resort, it would be laughed at. Is this the best we, as Americans, can come up with? I don't think so. There has to be middle ground in the use of force continuum between having a Ma Deuce set up at each doorway and a plan that requires kids to defend themselves with vegetable cans. Americans are better than that.

    I would want my grandson to hide behind a locked door.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • Dr. dbDr. db Senior Member Posts: 1,541 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    Sorry, had to add "scream", You KNOW a bunch of kids in an emergency situation are going to scream.

    Not in my classroom during lockdown they aren't.
  • Dr. dbDr. db Senior Member Posts: 1,541 Senior Member
    The national median (half longer and half shorter) Law Enforcement response time in these things is 3 minutes.
    1. 3m film on exterior glass would take close to 1:40 to penetrate (I have seen a trained SWAT breacher with tools take that long and he was ready to sit down for a breather because it was sustained physical effort.) All exterior doors are always locked.
    2. All classroom doors are locked, all lights are out, all students are in areas that are not visible, and in my case I'm out of sight but ready to smash and bash ( and yes I would use a can of corn tied in a hoodie sleeve if that was all I had) while the kids get out another door. Walking rapidly it would take about 1:00 to get to a classroom in my (former) school. Probably another 1:40 to get in a classroom door.
    So we're approaching 5 minutes elapsed by hardening the target.
    Response time to my school was 90 seconds from call to roll up. Local LEOs are trained to immediately go in looking for the threat. The officer doesn't establish a perimeter and wait for SWAT even if there is only one officer he/she is in the school hunting the bad guy. The officer has been in the school. Because kids are locked down in classrooms (not cowering in a corner rather establishing a good defensive position with cover and concealment) the LEO has a clear field to engage and the coward either commits suicide or the LEO shoots him.
    The problem with armed faculty, and I'm not against it, is they are most likely in class with kids. Hard call to leave some kids to hunt a bad guy even if you are trained.
    Perfect? No. Possible in the present ? Yes.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,041 Senior Member
    Sounds like the protocol for our schools. Used to be, LEOs would set up a perimeter and gather forces. I wrote the protocol for immediate intervention in my jurisdiction, one of the first of its kind, (Plan Sierra) although I'm sure others came to the same conclusion as I did at about the same time. I read in a book that if an attacking force had I believe 15 unimpeded minutes to accomplish a mission, their chances were extremely high. This was on a sliding scale, the more time they had, to more likely the success. What I did was take this from the other side; I figured if the defenders intervened as soon as possible, the attack could be foiled.

    I had to defend this in front of the chief of a PD, who thought getting people in place before making entry was the thing to do. I think he felt like he needed this strength to insure "everybody went home tonight." Meaning his officers. I said this method didn't work at Colombine, and there's no reason to believe it will work anywhere else and if it takes 15 minutes to gather, that's 15 minutes of slaughter. I can't face the parents of dead kids and tell them we waited to get up a posse while there was an active shooter. If the deputy can't kill all the attackers, he can at least divert them. Colombine was two kids, the Arkansas shooter was one kid.

    I don't know if he changed his policy, but lots of others have. I don't believe having armed School Resource Officers in schools is a good idea at this time. There are LOTS of reasons why I don't think so, none I'd like to share. This is subject to change, however, depending on the situation.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Tell that to the Israelis, they face those risks with their schools every day, successfully too, they meet force with force and prevent even preempt those attacks.
    Also, they have a great record when it comes to Skyjacking, very few of those, we have much to learn from the Israelis.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,350 Senior Member
    jbohio wrote: »
    Probably because it's the only choice she's allowed. And, easily affordable.


    You may be right....sad state of affairs.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,541 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    The answer to an imperfect world is to make the world better. It's up to us if not to totally prevent terrorists, of any kind, then to come up with a credible answer to a threat. Not be satisfied with kids throwing cans. If this method of self defense was promoted for citizens on the street, even as a last resort, it would be laughed at. Is this the best we, as Americans, can come up with? I don't think so. There has to be middle ground in the use of force continuum between having a Ma Deuce set up at each doorway and a plan that requires kids to defend themselves with vegetable cans. Americans are better than that.

    I would want my grandson to hide behind a locked door.



    Bla, bla, bla, bla... I guess we need some bitter old self proclaimed security expert to explain how to save and protect all the school children in the US. As silly as the tin can concept sounds to many of you, it's an action that can be taken right now without offending anyone or causing any fear or concern among liberal or passive parents or politicians. Any objects resembling actual weapons would likely start an endless debate over training and use whereas the seemingly innocuous tin cans are ignored or scoffed at but it can be done now. Any actions that could be more effective like armed teachers or administrators could be several years away but "plan K" is available now.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,047 Senior Member
    Some thoughts....

    1. What evidence is there that this is the only or the main plan of defense?
    2. Pencils and scissors could be thrown, I suppose. But in schools the students can't have real scissors, only safety scissors, so they're plastic with less impact than the can, no sharp point, only a cutting edge. Really both are probably better at arm's length as a slashing/stabbing weapon. Assuming an active shooter, the offender has a ranged weapon. Unless you're at bad breath range, a ranged weapon beats a scissors, pencil, or a baseball bat. Yes people with guns have been killed by all 3, but it takes getting in arm's reach with those. A can on the other hand can be thrown. It can be somewhat of a ranged weapon. Better range than a pencil, scissors, or a hand-held baseball bat.
    3. As others have said, at least they're telling the kids it's okay to stand up for themselves. Yes the defense of children is the adult's responsibility, but it's also the responsibility of adults to keep kids clean and dressed in appropriate clothing. Does that mean that until they turn adults parents are to bathe and dress their children? Or do parents teach their kids how to take care of themselves to varying extents? When my son gets old enough, I plan on either teaching him or getting someone to teach him basic self defense: elbow strikes, instep stomps, kicks, and how to get out of someone grabbing his arm. To me telling the kids to throw cans, while not ideal, is at least a good step in the direction of "don't be a victim."
    4. A locked door may work, or someone may try and come in through a window. If that's the case, I would hope the plan involves shielding the kids from bullets and flying glass from the windows.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,350 Senior Member
    The issue I have with this idea is that somebody, somewhere is going to see this and think "There, that's done". To the passive folks, this might be the perfect answer. Easy enough for anybody to use, innocuous, non-threatening. Who could object? Well, as myself, brother wambli and others pointed out, many things can be used as a weapon. Few of them can be used effectively when there is no training, no plan.

    Fighting back is okay and better than nothing. Fighting back effectively is FAR more desirable. I get that the cans are a last-ditch sort of thing...I just don't get why some folks (nobody here to be sure) think that such measures should be the go to measure?
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,047 Senior Member
    People see we have police and think "there, it's done." For some this might be a go-to measure. Others it's a Plan K or higher. I'm not sure it's the go-to for this situation. There's probably other plans in place, too. The article says it's a last resort. As far as training goes, it would take a RADICAL shift in school mentality to allow for training in how to use these, really. And teaching kids that various classroom items can be used as a weapon in an attack? That'll open the school up when a kid hits another with the same item. I'm just surprised that the school is allowing kids to bring items in for the express purpose of defense.

    More telling to me is that for the discussion of school safety 15 parents showed up. Fifteen.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,551 Senior Member
    It probably doesn't matter, anyway.

    As soon as one child is injured because another threw a can of corn at him, schools everywhere will ban canned food in schools, except for the cafeteria, and it will be locked up so they have to push food trays to the kids through the bars.

    Even if some schools actually had a somewhat logical plan to have the older kids mass their 'fire,' by throwing simultaneously as they charged the bad guy - somewhere, sometime, a gang of teenagers would attack an innocent victim, and the schools would be sued for making it all possible.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,047 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    It probably doesn't matter, anyway.

    As soon as one child is injured because another threw a can of corn at him, schools everywhere will ban canned food in schools, except for the cafeteria, and it will be locked up so they have to push food trays to the kids through the bars.

    Even if some schools actually had a somewhat logical plan to have the older kids mass their 'fire,' by throwing simultaneously as they charged the bad guy - somewhere, sometime, a gang of teenagers would attack an innocent victim, and the schools would be sued for making it all possible.
    And that is why I don't think the schools can teach kids to use things in the classroom to defend themselves.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • Dr. dbDr. db Senior Member Posts: 1,541 Senior Member
    Bisley: That's (one reason there were about 10) why I retired. We're not raising kids anymore we're raising hot house flowers . The children are trained to wilt when confronted by any adversity.
    3M film video is on You Tube. Rounds penetrate but the glass retains its integrity.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,551 Senior Member
    I agree, Doc.

    I moved back to the country when my kids started school, so that they would attend 'more sensible' schools, that mostly ignored the idiocy being foisted upon the larger schools. It worked OK for several years, but finally caught up. Now, some of my grandkids attend the same school, and they have very stringent security, for which I'm now grateful. I'm sad because they can't live the comparatively carefree way my generation did, but satisfied that they are taking some sensible precautions against the cowards who would harm them.

    I would go a step further, though, by educating and arming those employees with the proper temperament to act as deputies, should the need ever arise, or even to recruit grandpas (like me) to lounge around and mingle with everybody, like a 'beat cop.' Of course, academic types don't go for those types of solutions, in normal circumstances, and it might not work, anyway.
  • Dr. dbDr. db Senior Member Posts: 1,541 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    I would go a step further, though, by educating and arming those employees with the proper temperament to act as deputies, should the need ever arise, or even to recruit grandpas (like me) to lounge around and mingle with everybody, like a 'beat cop.'

    I agree! Here's my plan for that.
    A major problem with armed faculty is that in our present legal environment you are going to be sued and the underwriters for your school district's insurance are most likely in another country so you won't be insured and no the NEA won't help. Now I would take the weight for my own actions if I could save some kids but these things do act as deterrents to armed response. Therefore the local sheriff offers reserve deputy status to whoever takes courses. THE TEACHERS, or old vatos, PAY FOR IT THROUGH THEIR CERTIFICATION RENEWAL. They have to pay for college courses (or 90 clock hours in Colorado) every 5 years anyway. Let them be trained in school security. The local sheriff more than likely has a reserved deputy course on tap, just adapt that curriculum by throwing out how to drive a police vehicle or jail prisoner transport procedures and insert school security. Now the faculty member is acting under the legal umbrella of law enforcement with much greater legal protection. It cost the state and county zero. The faculty member shells out money he/she would have had to spend anyway. The faculty member is intimately familiar with the school. The kids have a go to guy they know can do something if they are bullied or if one of their pals is planning something. The person is at the school MUCH more frequently than an SRO who has to leave periodically if the SRO is shared with another school.
    There are still some problems. Like how does a faculty member keep up training and taking the emotional hit from kid getting accidentally wounded or killed but it's a start.
    MY preference is an SRO in each school but this might help.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 14,833 Senior Member
    Dr. db wrote: »
    Response time to my school was 90 seconds from call to roll up. Local LEOs are trained to immediately go in looking for the threat. The officer doesn't establish a perimeter and wait for SWAT even if there is only one officer he/she is in the school hunting the bad guy. The officer has been in the school. Because kids are locked down in classrooms (not cowering in a corner rather establishing a good defensive position with cover and concealment) the LEO has a clear field to engage and the coward either commits suicide or the LEO shoots him.
    The problem with armed faculty, and I'm not against it, is they are most likely in class with kids. Hard call to leave some kids to hunt a bad guy even if you are trained.
    Perfect? No. Possible in the present ? Yes.

    For a few years before I retired (2009) most of the PDs I had contact with had abandoned any thought of waiting for a massing of forces in an active shooter situation. The first two officers on the scene were going to begin the intervention and we exercised this (in cooperation with the school system) annually. Fast forward to today...we have the same plans in place for our USD in our very rural location. Our local officers are going to be the ONLY LE response for a long time (respectively) as our mutual aid response times are huge - Locking the kids down and giving us room to work is pretty much the only viable option.
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,980 Senior Member
    I'm afraid most parents and educators should take the Short Bus along with the **** children to class they way our society has gotten when it comes to guns and self defense.

    We didn't used to have all these school shootings to worry about. WHAT HAS CHANGED?

    Families do not stay together
    Values/Christian or otherwise, are not there anymore like they were
    Anything goes progressive thinking
    Computer games/very violent ones
    Lack of serious discipline, no spanking or little consequences for their bad behavior
    Drugs, more kinds and more available
    Every kid is a champion/competition is bad
    Liability
    No responsibility on the bad doer, just blame someone or something else
    Twitter/Tweets/Cell I-Phones/IMs??????
    Music?Hollywood.............they have been with us, but????????
    Societies social mores


    And many more things, just take yer pick. Seems life is much more dangerous for children these days than it was when I grew up, why is that? Even with all the safety precautions?

    And hell, they don't even let them play dodge ball in some schools, how the hell they expect them to hit anything with a can of beans?

    Oh, lets not fergit stupid ass parents who let their weird kids isolate themselves from the world and let the Internet be their babysitters and can't see when they are raising little monsters who are making bombs in the garage/threats online/drawing attack plans! Then said parents can spend all their time online with their devices and not be bothered with raising kids.

    Computer technology is indeed a double-edged sword.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,802 Senior Member
    Yeah, but about the time a kid or teacher would rare back to throw his..er...Defensive projectile??? he/she would probably get hit by a half dozen rounds in the nose. If you don't have a proper firearm you're screwed either way. I guess there's strength in numbers and maybe somebody would get in a lucky hit, but they better put some steam on it when they throw it or it'll just piss the perp off and make him more aggressive.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,802 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    I'm afraid most parents and educators should take the Short Bus along with the **** children to class they way our society has gotten when it comes to guns and self defense.

    We didn't used to have all these school shootings to worry about. WHAT HAS CHANGED?

    Families do not stay together
    Values/Christian or otherwise, are not there anymore like they were
    Anything goes progressive thinking
    Computer games/very violent ones
    Lack of serious discipline, no spanking or little consequences for their bad behavior
    Drugs, more kinds and more available
    Every kid is a champion/competition is bad
    Liability
    No responsibility on the bad doer, just blame someone or something else
    Twitter/Tweets/Cell I-Phones/IMs??????
    Music?Hollywood.............they have been with us, but????????
    Societies social mores


    And many more things, just take yer pick. Seems life is much more dangerous for children these days than it was when I grew up, why is that? Even with all the safety precautions?

    And hell, they don't even let them play dodge ball in some schools, how the hell they expect them to hit anything with a can of beans?

    Oh, lets not fergit stupid ass parents who let their weird kids isolate themselves from the world and let the Internet be their babysitters and can't see when they are raising little monsters who are making bombs in the garage/threats online/drawing attack plans! Then said parents can spend all their time online with their devices and not be bothered with raising kids.

    Computer technology is indeed a double-edged sword.

    I think it's more a lack of discipline and lack of Moral Authority. I believe a society where the average family believes in a supreme being and goes to worship regularly doesn't have these issues, at least the non radical ones. What did we do here? We took GOD out of the schools, out of our lives. We have no common direction any more. When I was a kid back in the 50s and early 60s there were Atheists and agnostics. But they pretty much left others alone and did their own thing. Nowdays if you say the word GOD out loud somebody will want to sue you.

    And right along with this our society quit believing in disciplining our kids. Discipline is mentioned all through the Bible. So we unknowingly did this to ourselves. We let it happen. And now we wonder why people shoot up a place and have no remorse? These people have never had real guidance in life. And they're pissed off because they can't figure out what's missing in their lives.

    Did some of the Atheists here ever think of it this way, that maybe religion might be a necessary evil?
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Add one more element to the mix; prescribing too many types of pharmaceutical products to teens that cause them to be suicidal or harmful to others, the youths involved in the Columbine shooting were on psych meds, added problems result when these drugs are prescribed by unqualified medical personnel and lack of periodic psychiatric care and psychotherapy..
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,551 Senior Member
    Dr. db wrote: »
    ...THE TEACHERS, or old vatos, PAY FOR IT THROUGH THEIR CERTIFICATION RENEWAL. They have to pay for college courses (or 90 clock hours in Colorado) every 5 years anyway. Let them be trained in school security. The local sheriff more than likely has a reserved deputy course on tap, just adapt that curriculum by throwing out how to drive a police vehicle or jail prisoner transport procedures and insert school security. Now the faculty member is acting under the legal umbrella of law enforcement with much greater legal protection. It cost the state and county zero. The faculty member shells out money he/she would have had to spend anyway. The faculty member is intimately familiar with the school. The kids have a go to guy they know can do something if they are bullied or if one of their pals is planning something. The person is at the school MUCH more frequently than an SRO who has to leave periodically I'd the SRO is shared with another school...

    I'm assuming that the bolded part above refers to Continuing Education Units (CEU's in my profession)?

    My oldest daughter is a high school counselor in the same school system where her kids attend school, and I guarantee that she, and probably a few others I know of, would jump all over a program like you suggest. While I would naturally be fearful of her getting into any kind of shootout, I would much prefer it to a situation like Sandy Hook, where it was reported that the principle placed herself between the kids and the shooter as a human shield, with no possibility of either saving the kids or herself.
  • HvyMaxHvyMax Senior Member Posts: 1,786 Senior Member
    I personally support teaching a defensive mindset. Cowering never saved anybody. There needs to be a plan to the last breath. Lock and barricade the door, take up defensive positions with available weapons, evaluate escape routes, barring escape and failed door then attack with everything from every angle. Can't kill em all and even if they do then they didn't die cowering. I have always taught my kids that you have no chance whatsoever if you don't try something. Even if you fail you are probably still better off. There are worse things then being shot/killed. I tell my kids if faced with a kidnapper or such with a gun to run and scream. Odds are the person will not want the attention and will take off and being wounded/killed right then and there is probably nothing to what they will do to you if they don't. Small children have few options but even if they run out it is always better to die trying.
    Wal Mart where the discriminating white trash shop.
    Paddle faster!!! I hear banjos.
    Reason for editing: correcting my auto correct
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,980 Senior Member
    Doc is correct, they prescribe more Meds than you can shake a stick at for kids these days. Seems like about every other little bastard out there is on something for ADD to allergies to peanut-butter.

    We must of all had SOMETHING , but it was never diagnosed............poor us........... how did we ever get through school and into adult life as RESPONSIBLE adults without having a prescribed drugs and excuses for everything we had to deal with?
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,259 Senior Member
    HvyMax wrote: »
    I personally support teaching a defensive mindset. Cowering never saved anybody. There needs to be a plan to the last breath. Lock and barricade the door, take up defensive positions with available weapons, evaluate escape routes, barring escape and failed door then attack with everything from every angle. Can't kill em all and even if they do then they didn't die cowering. I have always taught my kids that you have no chance whatsoever if you don't try something. Even if you fail you are probably still better off. There are worse things then being shot/killed. I tell my kids if faced with a kidnapper or such with a gun to run and scream. Odds are the person will not want the attention and will take off and being wounded/killed right then and there is probably nothing to what they will do to you if they don't. Small children have few options but even if they run out it is always better to die trying.


    Really? What?
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • Dr. dbDr. db Senior Member Posts: 1,541 Senior Member
    The human mind is inventive in its cruelties. Let yours run.
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