Go away! An unwanted intrusion? Real incident today

samzheresamzhere BannedPosts: 10,923 Senior Member
Today I had what's fairly typical for the sort of localized self defense situations that I have encountered, no major attacks from two dozen highly trained ninja zombie warriors, just some idiotic druggie, maybe looking for a handout, maybe looking for mugging somebody.

This really happened: I was coming home from the car shop, perfectly nice day, 2pm, and I park in my lowly apartment space, and I see this shabby guy sitting on the sidewalk about 50 feet from where I park.

Naturally I see him and my alert system comes onstream. I keep my eyes on this guy and I start to get out of the car, and he gets up and starts walking toward me. He was just ambling and not running, and I therefore thought that he was probably gonna hit me up for money but that was not something that I was "high alert" for but "medium alert" about.

I got up, and he kept walking toward me. Understand that when I stop my car, before I unlock my doors, I have my .357 snubbie in hand. Sometimes it's a Glock 36 or whatever, but it's ready and in my hand if there is ANY possible problem.

So as I get up from the driver's seat, the guy approaches me, and I say to him "Go away!" And he keeps coming. Not fast, or I would have felt really threatened. But ambling like a panhandler. Problem is, as soon as a panhandler or whatever is within reach, a person like me is vulnerable.

So I say "Go away!" again and this time I draw my .357 and hold it out, not at him, but so he can see it. He immediately decides that he's got somewhere else to be, and walks briskly away.

I watch carefully and ensure that he's gone and down the street before I let down my guard. I then phone the Houston cops with his description so they might know he's in the area and needs to be maybe picked up.

I always drive w. my car doors locked, and watch very carefully before I start to exit the car. I don't carry on my person all the time but I do have a strong caliber handgun with me at all times, in the center console maybe. And before I get out of my car, I check my surroundings carefully, as seeing this guy proved okay.

I actually think he was just a panhandler and bum but who is to know, once he's within arm's reach? So I told him "Go away!" and then showed him the gun and he instantly got the hint.

This really happened, just an hour ago. This is a "real life" scenario and not an exercise in theory. But I do want feedback on what I may have done better, what mistakes I may have made.

Thanks.

Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
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Replies

  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,626 Senior Member
    Another, according to John Lott, of the 2 to 3 million times a year a citizen uses a handgun to stop, prevent or possibly prevent a crime. I wouldn't have called the police, they might actually locate your antagonist, and he might say you pulled a gun on him, and lo & behold, suddenly you're charged with aggravated assault or some other nonsense. Never volunteer anything to the police, even in Texas. They don't care a whit who they get to arrest - victim or perp - getting to appear in court is often big-bucks overtime for them. And to your local DA any conviction is a 'win.' And to your defense attorney, win or lose, let's just say "Ka-****."
  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,467 Senior Member
    Reads to me like you handled it just right. I wouldn't change a thing. :up: Glad it turned out well.
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • twatwa Senior Member Posts: 2,231 Senior Member
    So a guy is walking toward you, not in a hurry and you told him to go away and he keeps walking and you brandish your weapon? Got to love Texas you would be arrested in a heart beat around here.
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,803 Senior Member
    Disparity of force is a lethal weapon.

    Sam you did fine. Yes there are a lot of potential crap storm issues you could be / might have been hit with but it boils down to being judged by twelve or carried by six. A handgun's purpose it to keep people away from you at a distance. The Tueller drill is all about reacting within 21 feet. With your disabilities it could be even farther away.

    You got your point across, you stayed safe and no one got hurt.

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • RazorbackerRazorbacker Senior Member Posts: 4,646 Senior Member
    You told him to go away and he kept coming. That is an aggressive act in my book. And you survived the encounter with out having to shoot the guy.
    That's all that counts in my book.
    Teach your children to love guns, they'll never be able to afford drugs
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,049 Senior Member
    Yep....you did just fine. A bum/panhandler can easily turn out to be a disturbed person/criminal.....best policy is to warn them off...if they don't listen the first time a little reinforcement is ok....good job!
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,049 Senior Member
    twa wrote: »
    So a guy is walking toward you, not in a hurry and you told him to go away and he keeps walking and you brandish your weapon? Got to love Texas you would be arrested in a heart beat around here.

    It would fly in my county without issue...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • shushshush Senior Member Posts: 6,259 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    I see this shabby guy sitting on the sidewalk about 50 feet from where I park.

    Sam!!!!!

    It was me.

    I looked a bit rough but it's a long flight.

    You were out, so I sat down to wait.

    And then I get "Go away!" twice, the ice cold eye and stubby maggie. :yikes: :silly::silly:



    Glad you are ok. :up:

    cjp wrote: »..... Oh dear God, I've admitted to liking something Limey.I'll never hear the end of this.

    Jayhawker wrote: »...But seriously Shush....

    Big Chief wrote: ».........walking around with a greasy butt ain't no fun, though!

     


     

  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,409 Senior Member
    A neighborhood where that action would be prosecuted or even questioned makes one wonder "Why would anyone want to live there?" Let the squat to pee liberal sheeple have that territory!
    :cuss:
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • twatwa Senior Member Posts: 2,231 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    It would fly in my county without issue...

    Johnson County, Wyandotte County no fly here....
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,049 Senior Member
    twa wrote: »
    Johnson County, Wyandotte County no fly here....

    Strange interpretation of "No Duty to Retreat" over your way....unknown person approaches you... you warn them off (entirely within your rights to do so)...they disregard that warning.... Where do you go from here?

    In my world, this person has clearly disregarded a command to stop what they are doing...the next warning is going to be backed up with a hand on a gun....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • jaywaptijaywapti Senior Member Posts: 4,517 Senior Member
    Sam I cant think of anything I would have done different, Ya did good yer safe and sound.

    A few years ago I was waiting to take my daughter to lunch, she worked in a bad part of downtown Miami, while I waited a big black Jimmy (SUV) double parked a few car lengths behind me, A crusty looking guy walked towards me from across the street, I had my .45 in my lap, when he called to me I just asked if he saw the black SUV and told him its the DEA , he has been following me all day. he took off running and all his pals took of also.

    JAY
    THE DEFINITION OF GUN CONTROL IS HITTING THE TARGET WITH YOUR FIRST SHOT
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 8,657 Senior Member
    Sam you did fine in my book. With health issues they may call you a disabled senior citizen, but you sure acted with sound mind and didnt let a possible aggressor intimidate you. Good Job
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,224 Senior Member
    You did fine. Of course, the Houston cops wouldn't have any reason to pick him up as no crime was committed. Nor by you, although in some states displaying a firearm is a crime.

    I guess the question to be asked is what if he'd not stopped but continued shambling towar you, at what point would you have shot him.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,274 Senior Member
    What would you have done if he kept coming?
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • twatwa Senior Member Posts: 2,231 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    Strange interpretation of "No Duty to Retreat" over your way....unknown person approaches you... you warn them off (entirely within your rights to do so)...they disregard that warning.... Where do you go from here?

    In my world, this person has clearly disregarded a command to stop what they are doing...the next warning is going to be backed up with a hand on a gun....

    Never said he was wrong. I don't know Sam and it sounds like he may have some sort of disability and felt threatened, he did what he thought was best at the time and all is good, that is great as far as I am concerned. Everyone lives in different places, some live in the country, some live in small towns, some live in big cities everyone has different life styles. I live in a great suburb, I work in a crap hole. Where I work it is not illegal or out of place for a stranger to walk toward me getting out of my car. Panhandlers are common place. If it were legal to draw a gun every time a "shabby looking guy walked toward me" where I work, I would be drawing my gun 100's of times a year. Multiply that by everyone that carries in my area and guns would be drawn all day long, just a fact where I work. You would most likely be arrested for brandishing for such an action, even if you told them to "go away" and they kept "walking" toward you, again just a fact. In the many years I have worked in said crappy area, I have once put my hand toward the small of my back when a group of scum bags coming out of a gas station got in my face and one of them yelled "I'm a gansta bitch!", I was in the ready should it have escalated, but never drew my weapon, just the act of me moving my hand toward my weapon was enough that the "thugs" backed off. The fact is if you feel threatened enough to draw your weapon at the time, DO IT, a legal issue should be the least of your worries at the time.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,102 Senior Member
    Don't see anything wrong with what you did given your age and health concerns. What looks like a panhandler could just as easily be a meth head. They sorta kinda look the same until they smile; the meth head has gawdawful looking teeth if they've been smoking the stuff for a while. A meth head can go crazy fast.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • Fat BillyFat Billy Senior Member Posts: 1,813 Senior Member
    I had a similar incident happen a month ago. I pulled into the parking lot where I live. There are two hoodie wearing individuals at the building entrance milling around. I removed my 44 snubby from my leather briefcase and put it in my right pocket along with my hand. As I walked toward the entrance one of the hoodie wearers said we need to use your cell phone. I looked at both of them and told them to go "expletive deleted" themselves. My hand was on the snubby in the pocket. One to the individuals said some bad lingo and was about to step my way when his partner grabbed his arm and said come on he probably doesn't have a phone. I stood still and they departed quickly. I waited till they moved away to go inside. I'm glad I didn't need to pull my weapon and didn't have to shoot anyone. My regret is not being able to examine the wound channel of a Critical Defense 44spl. They never saw the gun. If they ever see it is during primer ignition. I feel showing the weapon in advance is a negative and can cause further action. The 44 is a perfect pocket gun since I had the cocking spur removed from the hammer. Smooth in and out DA only. :up: Later,
    Fat Billy

    Recoil is how you know primer ignition is complete.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,224 Senior Member
    I'm almost 70 years old, but I figure I can deal with a guy until he becomes a palpable threat to my well-being. I'd hate to shoot an innocent guy who's just hitting me up for a buck or two. I'm assuming he doesn't approach me in my yard or house, of course, but he has a right to walk anywhere on public property or even private property so long as it has public access.

    My Critical Personal Space is broad, but in stages, 1. 2. 3. These change with the situation, 3. being where I draw a weapon. If the guy is in a business suit and carrying a briefcase, 1. is pretty great. If he's wearing a prison orange jumpsuit or dressing like one of the Beagle Boys, my CPS is a whole lot shorter.

    Being a cop for so long and having lots of shady types approach me without evil intent, I suppose I've grown a shell of indifference. Maybe that's not healthy, but since I used to be one of those guys who look like a bum as an UC officer, I know not everyone who dresses like a bum is one.

    Me, for example. I buy clothes once every four years or so. I look like a clean homeless person.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    Yep....you did just fine. A bum/panhandler can easily turn out to be a disturbed person/criminal.....best policy is to warn them off...if they don't listen the first time a little reinforcement is ok....good job!

    True. Likely 95% that he was just a dude who needed maybe 5 bucks to buy a bottle of cheap wine and then go away. Problem being, if he gets within reach, I'm not physically able to defend myself. The guy was very tall and slender and maybe 30-35 years old. So he being able to lay hands on me is something I cannot allow.

    The guy said nothing at all, the whole time. This leads me to guess he was just looney or needing a few bucks. But I could not take that chance and allow him within reach. I told him to "Go away" maybe 3 times before I showed him the gun (I'd kept it behind my waist but had my hand on it all the time).

    A very similar thing happened to me several years ago, when I was pumping gas. A guy was lingering on the edge of the gas station property and he saw me, an older guy (I was using a cane that day) and he started toward me. Again, it's very likely he was just looking for a handout but I can't take that chance. I pulled my pistol and he instantly veered away, went down the street.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    horselips wrote: »
    Another, according to John Lott, of the 2 to 3 million times a year a citizen uses a handgun to stop, prevent or possibly prevent a crime. I wouldn't have called the police, they might actually locate your antagonist, and he might say you pulled a gun on him, and lo & behold, suddenly you're charged with aggravated assault or some other nonsense. Never volunteer anything to the police, even in Texas. They don't care a whit who they get to arrest - victim or perp - getting to appear in court is often big-bucks overtime for them. And to your local DA any conviction is a 'win.' And to your defense attorney, win or lose, let's just say "Ka-****."

    Well, no, not in Texas. I did pull a gun on him, absolutely. And I was on my apartment property (not public property) and leaving my car, and he started toward me without any warning or other statement (he never said anything the whole time). I've had occasional instances of a similar nature and the cops in Houston essentially wanted to give me a medal. One time, after I'd chased off 2 guys who were beating this woman, the cops took the time to compare handguns with me (one of them had a nice Kimber .45 1911).

    I'm perfectly okay about talking to the cops in Texas. If this guy gets arrested, we've got what? A probable druggie and ex con vs. an older, disabled guy who was on his property and "feared for his life"? In Texas, people get shot for what this guy did.

    Some years ago I was surprised at 3am by a guy selling "prescriptions" to the newspaper. I freely admit to being dense in actually opening my front door but I did this with my XD .45 in hand. They guy suddenly decided he had other "scriptions" to sell elsewhere. I called the cops and they arrested him a couple blocks away, he being wanted on several warrants for burglary. Bye bye.

    I told the cops today that I did indeed pull a gun on him when he approached and did not go away after being told to do this. Cops were just fine with this. So yeah, I pulled a gun on him. But this is Texas.

    btw, even being a "LAD" the law is clear: if I'm a legal resident of a rental apartment or condo or whatever, I am legally okay with defending that property as if I owned it.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    twa wrote: »
    Johnson County, Wyandotte County no fly here....

    I grew up in KC and when I lived there, Wyandotte ct was redneck heaven. Johnson ct was, and always is, bedroom territory, placid and dull.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • twatwa Senior Member Posts: 2,231 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    I grew up in KC and when I lived there, Wyandotte ct was redneck heaven. Johnson ct was, and always is, bedroom territory, placid and dull.

    Johnson county is where I make my home and it is placid and dull - just like I like it. :jester:
    Parts of Wyandotte county are redneck still but where I work, KCK (still wyandotte county) and KCMO it is scum city, more crime there than about anywhere in the United States sad to say.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,049 Senior Member
    Having lived in a place where this tactic is common and backed off a number of "panhandlers/scam artists"...it's pretty easy to tell when the guy has singled you out and is just out for a stroll... it's all about boundaries...we should all have them and it's going to be a little different for all of us....with me...if I don't know you, or the most part, you are not going to get close enough to touch me unchallenged....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    BAMAAK wrote: »
    What would you have done if he kept coming?

    I might have feared for my life. I was in no position to let someone like this guy get within arm's reach of me. I will not describe the guy further but he was, mmm, not the typical sort of resident for the fairly upscale area where I live. No way he lived next door.

    The whole idea of a handgun is that it's the equalizer. Not the best of all possible worlds but it works. I genuinely felt threatened and warned him away. When I finally displayed the snubbie .357 he understood.

    Realize that I'm not a brutish or aggressive person, and I value my self defense rights but would never abuse them to bully someone. We all read accounts (maybe see it on Cops) where some drunk resident brandished his gun at a neighbor with whom he had a trash can argument. That ain't me.

    I was taught by my Dad and others that pulling a gun is a very serious matter, not to be done in a trivial manner, or you can end up in hot water, and rightly so, as horselips correctly warns.

    Life lesson from my father: "Never point a gun at a man unless you're going to kill him." Harsh? Yes, but he grew up the the roaring 20s of mountainous Kentucky.

    Thankfully I only "displayed" the gun, held it down to my side, not pointing it at him. But I clearly let him see it and I told him the final time to "Go away" and he remembered a dental appointment elsewhere.

    I have no desire to harm another person and I would try as much as possible to not do so, but I also will not bargain away my own well being.

    Believe me, I didn't welcome this encounter. But being in it, I did what I felt necessary.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    I want everyone to understand this original posting and why I wrote it.

    Some have in the past accused me of bragging about gun-related encounters. I don't know why this had occurred to me in greater proportion than many others, but it has. I absolutely don't run in a hard crowd nor do I hang in a rough area. Stuff happens.

    The reason I posted this is because I want everyone to understand that we need to be alert of our surrounding, always. This is a critical factor in self defense, as anyone can attest. If I were less cautious, the guy might have been able to get hands on me before I was even aware of it -- consider the large number of people who are mugged getting in and out of their cars. And as I say, 95% he was just looking for a handout -- and I certainly would be glad to give some bum 5 bucks. But I cannot allow that 5% chance he was going to mug me and beat me senseless, steal my car.

    I want folks here to see that it's "okay" to defend yourself even if the other person isn't visibly armed. You have a right to do this.

    What you don't have a "right" to do is shoot some poor idiot who's drunk or addled but isn't an immediate threat.

    I posted this genuine encounter so that we can discuss it and work out the relative situations. I certainly didn't want to shoot this poor fool but I let him know in no uncertain terms that he needed to be elsewhere. The cops told me I was just fine with this. And one of the cops said very clearly to not let someone get close enough, period.

    Anyway, I'm NOT bragging about what happened. But it really did occur and we can learn from this. Maybe you live in a jurisdiction where my actions would not be condoned. As Teach said, maybe not the best place to live. And one reason I'm glad I live in Texas.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    You did fine. Of course, the Houston cops wouldn't have any reason to pick him up as no crime was committed. Nor by you, although in some states displaying a firearm is a crime.

    I guess the question to be asked is what if he'd not stopped but continued shambling towar you, at what point would you have shot him.

    I suppose the way to define this is "at what point would I have feared for my life" and it's hard to say. He was on the sidewalk (sitting there, oddly) at first and then he walked toward me but was still on the public sidewalk. I suppose I would have "elevated the threat level" if he'd stepped from the sidewalk onto the parking area where I stood.

    As was said, the "zone of danger" varies by the specific circumstance, and each instance is different.

    I pulled up into my parking space, and saw the guy about 50 feet away. I had my doors locked and a .357 within easy reach, but what was I going to do? Sit in my parked car till he left? Nope.

    So I made sure he wasn't advancing and then I got the gun in my hand, and got out. Soon as I did he got up from where he was sitting and came toward me. But not fast. I cannot say if I would have ever maybe shot him but I was ready to defend myself.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    twa wrote: »
    Johnson county is where I make my home and it is placid and dull - just like I like it. :jester:
    Parts of Wyandotte county are redneck still but where I work, KCK (still wyandotte county) and KCMO it is scum city, more crime there than about anywhere in the United States sad to say.

    Although I grew up in KC proper, went to Paseo HS (major gangland territory then), I spent all my time in the Westport district, cut my teeth at Kelly's Irish Tavern on Westport Rd. Graduated KU Jayhawk, then when I got married, moved to Prairie Village w. my new wife and her 2 sons.

    KC is a pretty fun city for being stuck in the middle of the country, fairly cosmopolitan.

    My nephew has worked for Boulevard Brewery for 20 years now. They make some great beer!

    The stories I could tell you about the old days at Kelly's. I ran with old Mike Kelly's boys, Patrick mostly. We were pretty notorious. I'm a charter member of the Squirrel Club** at Kelly's.

    ** The Squirrel Club: Kelly's Irish is a huge traditional bar, located in what was once a trading post. "Westport Road" that runs in front of the bar was once the Westport Trail that started in Independence Mo, just 20 miles east of KC, where the Santa Fe rail line once ended. KC (then known as Westport Landing) was 1 day's wagon train journey and the trading post (owned by a grandson of Daniel Boone) was thriving. It was essentially a tavern waaaay back.

    Anyway, I hung with a bunch of young rowdies when I was just out of college and we were pretty wild. Part of our group was 2 of old Mike Kelly's sons (Mike owned the bar) and we'd come in there and swag and brag and do what you do when you're young and stupid.

    One evening, this waitress "Sam" (Samantha) came over to our table -- we "owned" a table -- and she said "You kids are just a buncha squirrels!" And the Squirrel Club was born. It meets every Thursday happy hour. Years after, in maybe 2002, I was back visiting in KC and told my now-grown stepson Scott that we needed to be at Kelly's for the SQ meeting. He laughed at me, "Sam, that was years ago." Well, sure enough, there they were, many of my old pals, and they acted like I'd just gone to the john instead of being gone for decades.

    The Squirrel Club is now a charity org, and they hold events to raise money for cancer kids and other charities.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • twatwa Senior Member Posts: 2,231 Senior Member
    Small world, I spent many evenings and early morning hours at Kelly's during high school and college years. Haven't been down there in years, from what it sounds it has changed ALOT as far as who hangs out in Westport anymore at least during the summer months. I grew up in Roeland Park and went to Bishop Miege. I lived in Prairie Village from about 10 years myself (77th and Rosewood) just out of college, then moved out South. We actually swap some "work" with the guys at Boulevard, we swap some parts for beer at times - funny stuff.
  • JKPJKP Senior Member Posts: 1,836 Senior Member
    If a threat was perceived why leave the vehicle especially with ambulatory issues?
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