Go away! An unwanted intrusion? Real incident today

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Replies

  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Another point I want to make about what happened today... I often tease others here about their prepping against ninja Islamic terrorist invasion w. maybe 30 baddies all armed to the teeth and slathering and whatever. Everyone here knows this is just hogwash that I give out and it's done just for the potential smile it brings. If it ain't funny, so sue me.

    And I've actually got zero problems with those who prep for such things, maybe have an AR in the vehicle or maybe carry 2 handguns. Anything I post about that is just silly teasing.

    That being said, the sort of incident that I experienced today is what usually happens to most folks. They're getting in or out of their vehicles at maybe Wallyworld or their homes, and get mugged, at minimum their stuff stolen, cars taken. Or maybe just shot. It happens.

    But being mugged or threatened or strong-armed is what we normally see happen, maybe 99% of the time. No huge well-practiced assault, just some crackhead attacking. Thing is, your getting a knife stuck in your ribs is just as terrible.

    The vast majority of personal attacks occur just as what (maybe) happened to me. One or two thugs, low level and just out for your wallet and cellphone and maybe your vehicle. And this sort of thing can occur in broad daylight. For me, about 2pm on a sunny and warm day, me feeling just fine, having spent dough for my poor T-Bird's alternator but otherwise okay.

    My point is this: always be aware of the surroundings. Always keep your car doors locked. Always look around you before exiting or entering your vehicle. This is where most muggins occur, as you know.

    As I said, it's very very likely the guy was just looking for a handout. But I was immediately forewarned by his sitting crosslegged in the middle of the sidewalk. People don't usually do this. And he got up when I parked, and started toward me. As Gene says, it's a 1-2-3 thing.

    I've been trained by the 3 separate self defense courses I've had. Situational awareness is primary. Next, be armed (duh). Next, have a well thought out plan of what to do. Not exact, of course, since each instance is unique. But a generalized plan: He only is allowed to get this close. I will absolutely defend myself within my rights to do so. And so on.

    So yeah, some good questions have been asked: "What would you have done if he kept coming?" and such.

    My individual experience today is essentially trivial. What was most likely a stumblebum was looking for a handout and had to be told "No" with emphasis before he got the message.

    What I want this to do is to help everyone here consider the same "What would I do?" or "Would I aim and point at the guy?" and so on. Because if you don't create these imaginary scenarios in your mind ahead of time, you might "lock up" or maybe, sadly, shoot some poor idiot unduly. Nobody wants this.

    What I'm hoping is that this very real and very "ordinary" experience can serve as a platform for others here to formulate their own plan of action if confronted by a similar situation. Some here have chimed in and said that they either were armed and ready or maybe also displayed their weapon, as I did.

    Per Gene's 1-2-3 I guess I got to step 2 today, or step 1-1/2, in that I did display the gun but held it to my side. That worked, thankfully. I suppose step 2 would have been if he'd ignored this and kept coming, and then I might have drawn down on him. I'm very glad this wasn't necessary.

    Thanks to everyone for the good feedback -- we need to ask questions and consider alternatives in self defense.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    shush wrote: »
    Sam!!!!!

    It was me.

    I looked a bit rough but it's a long flight.

    You were out, so I sat down to wait.

    And then I get "Go away!" twice, the ice cold eye and stubby maggie. :yikes: :silly::silly:



    Glad you are ok. :up:

    I kinda think it wasn't you. He was late 20s early 30s and tall and thin and dressed in an orange skullcap and yellow sweater with pink tennies. Very reggae, mahn.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • gatorgator Senior Member Posts: 1,733 Senior Member
    JKP wrote: »
    If a threat was perceived why leave the vehicle especially with ambulatory issues?

    That was my first thought......but when I pondered on it a bit further I came to the conclusion that Sam had every right to exit his vehicle and walk to his apartment without being accosted.
    USMC 80-84
    -96 lbs
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,432 Senior Member
    I'm curious how close could he have gotten before you "feared for your life"? The guys whole crime was looking grungy and walking towards you. Your perception that he was a danger was at that point only in your mind. Perhaps he was deaf and couldn't hear your warnings. Maybe he wanted directions. Just playing the devils advocate here but I'm not sure you didn't overreact. I've been approached by seedy looking types before that indeed made me nervous, never pulled a gun on them. But then again, I've never been a little old man. I'm getting near the old part though.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,781 Senior Member
    I think the actions you described would be a reasonable response. There is no way you could know his intentions, but you do know that such a person could easily overpower you. You live downtown in a large city where any kind of 'character' could be lurking, so you have to be out in front of events during these odd encounters. Technically, I suppose a case could be made for 'brandishing,' but I doubt that any competent LEO would take action against it in such circumstances. I probably would not have called police, other than to maybe report a vagrant hanging around.

    I had an experience several months ago, when my wife and I got stranded on a dark section of a semi-deserted highway, around midnight. I had called a wrecker and been advised that it was 45 minutes away. During that time, I had offers of help from two different 'good Samaritans,' and I admit to having my XD45 in my hand (out of sight) during both. I'm 90% sure that both encounters were legitimate offers of help, but you have to at least wonder a little bit about young men out at midnight on dark, deserted highways. Neither attempted to exit their vehicles, and both left immediately when I told them I had it covered, so there was no need to suggest that I was prepared to fight. I don't really know if an older man with one hand out of sight registered anything with them, but they left without incident, and that was the desired result.
  • shushshush Senior Member Posts: 6,259 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    I don't really know if an older man with one hand out of sight registered anything with them, but they left without incident, and that was the desired result.

    It is a sad world we have come to.

    cjp wrote: »..... Oh dear God, I've admitted to liking something Limey.I'll never hear the end of this.

    Jayhawker wrote: »...But seriously Shush....

    Big Chief wrote: ».........walking around with a greasy butt ain't no fun, though!

     


     

  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,781 Senior Member
    shush wrote: »
    It is a sad world we have come to.

    It can still be fixed - all we have to do is throw the politicians in jail and send farmers to take their place. :tooth:
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Sounds like you handled it perfectly Sam and the only other way would have to been to drive off and call the cops or just sit in your car until they got there.

    However, you/I/we should not have to endure such things when we arrive at home or anywhere and just wanna get inside.............glad I live in FLA where we have very similar no retreat rights too.

    Never know the intentions of folks these days, better safe than sorry.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Big Al1Big Al1 Senior Member Posts: 7,245 Senior Member
    Excellent situational awareness, Sam! That's what we trained our pilots, head up and on a swivel, be aware of your surroundings!! I get approached occasionally by panhandlers in the downtown area, so for a firm "go away" has been sufficient, but I'm a big guy, too!!
  • 104RFAST104RFAST Senior Member Posts: 1,274 Senior Member
    Actually, if you have spent any time in South Houston sense Katrina, you probably would have made the same decision.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    gator wrote: »
    That was my first thought......but when I pondered on it a bit further I came to the conclusion that Sam had every right to exit his vehicle and walk to his apartment without being accosted.

    JKP makes a good point, and his is a valid question. I suppose the alternative would have been to back out of my parking slot and drive away, or sit there in my locked car and call the cops.

    Calling the cops while sitting in a locked car (gun in easy reach) might have been an alternate.

    I however made my mind up long ago, to not be pushed around or intimidated by thugs or rowdies. Which is why I've armed myself.

    The cops, by the way, said that I acted properly and was totally within my rights (and CHL law) and thanked me for making the report, that they'd keep an eye out for this dude.

    I also want to amplify the 2 reasons I did report this to the cops:

    1. To alert them of this guy wandering the neighborhood. What if he sees a little girl or an older woman or whomever who's unable to defend themselves? Better that a citizen reports this guy's description, just in case.

    2. To short circuit any chance that this guy would complain or file a report. I had my foot in the door first and filed a report. I was therefore forthcoming and open about what happened and told the cops exactly what occurred. Now they've got a law abiding citizen's report and if there's any goofy report from this bad guy, he'll likely be laughed out of the room. If I didn't report it however, the page is blank. I prefer to be the one who fills it in first.

    Houston and Texas aren't perfect. There are other very gun friendly states similar to Texas. And Houston has many of the big city woes. But the political and legal climate here is very pro-gun and the cops are very sympathetic to gun owners and especially CHLs, whom they see as the cop's friend.

    Were I to live in another less gun-friendly place, then maybe what I did would be a problem and I'd have been reluctant. Here in Houston? Nope.

    Thanks again for all the good feedback. This very real incident is a bit typical for most encounters that private citizens face, particularly in populous areas. Thankfully the neighborhood where I live is very artsy and musicy but fairly upscale, with the folks taking care of their property and watching out for each other. It's an odd sort of neighborhood -- downtown skyscrapers visible but a friendly, sensible type of people here, mostly professionals w. grown kids (or gay professionals) and it's got the flavor of the same sort of artsy area that many big cities have -- SanFran's "Upper Grant" for example. All big cities have a similar enclave of artsy types but who are also professional and somewhat upscale. A strange mix but it works.

    And therefore, vagrants and bums and drifters are quickly reported to the cops. The low end folks have learned this and therefore stay clear of this area. They know they'll find a cop car pulling up next to them 10 minutes later, asking for IDs. So street crime here in our "Montrose" district is low compared to just next door in other areas where the residents don't watch out for one another like they do here.

    Those folks who don't live in a big city nor have ever done so find this odd, and I fully understand it. Many have this vision of a thick bunch of tenements like 1930s Bronx, and apply this stereotype. Or imagine it was south central LA. And yeah, Houston has places like that. But I look outside, rows of big old maple trees and oaks, wide lawns well kept, homes and apartments upscale and clean. Most big cities also have these little pockets of sanity.

    Anyway... I'll let everyone know if there's any more feedback. And thanks for the commentary, critical or not. I didn't post this story to glean attaboys. I wanted to share this real life incident so we can all learn from it. If there is something I might have done different, let's talk about it evenly and straight up.

    Question asked: How close would I have let him get? There's no real hard line of demarcation but absolutely not within reach. Six to eight feet I would have feared for my life, assuming he said nothing nor simply asked for a handout. But if he kept approaching I would have been forced to make a critical decision. Thankfully this didn't occur.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,432 Senior Member
    I wonder if the police or a court of law would have said the same thing to a big strapping 25 yr old? I get the whole elderly thing and I would advise my mother to do the same thing, I'm just curious if beyond the common sense factor, i.e. ability to defend oneself, if there are two sets of unwritten rules. If it had come down to it and you had to defend yourself, would the 25 yr old be treated the same in court? I somehow doubt it. I'm sure a jury would look at it different, I wonder if a judge would.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    BAMAAK wrote: »
    I'm curious how close could he have gotten before you "feared for your life"? The guys whole crime was looking grungy and walking towards you. Your perception that he was a danger was at that point only in your mind. Perhaps he was deaf and couldn't hear your warnings. Maybe he wanted directions. Just playing the devils advocate here but I'm not sure you didn't overreact. I've been approached by seedy looking types before that indeed made me nervous, never pulled a gun on them. But then again, I've never been a little old man. I'm getting near the old part though.

    I was very clear to the cops that the guy didn't threaten me nor did he display a weapon. He just kept walking toward me and didn't stop even though I told him to go away. Maybe he was deaf? Er, maybe he was from Venus and his ship just crashed nearby and wanted to borrow some liquid platinum for his gas tank.

    I'm not really a little old man, or at least I don't see myself that way. Fact that I now need a walker is my biology, my bones not working keen. I may be 73 too, but I'm likely sharper and faster minded than I've been in years. But physically adept? Nope.

    Got a phone call this morning from the cop who took my statement, follow up to let me know they didn't see the guy elsewhere but to thank me for trying to keep the area safe. Cop told me "Hey. You're older now. You've lived a long life and you deserve to be left alone if you want to."

    From your suppositions, some could be true: guy wanted directions on how to get back to... to where? How did he end up on foot outside my house?

    How would you have prevented this guy from coming closer to you without "overreacting" and displaying a gun? Realize that I told him 3-4 times to "Go away!" before I showed the gun. And I kept it down by my side and never pointed it at him, but let him see it clearly.

    What otherwise would you have done to keep him from approaching? After several verbal warnings, that is.

    Remember, if he gets within arm's reach, I'm done for if he's violent. Yeah I studied Shotokan karate for a couple years but that was when I was 22. My arthritis keeps me low powered and prevents muscular development (no more male hormones at my age) and I cannot walk unaided more than a few steps.

    I have zero way to know if he's gonna smack me down and stick a knife in my eye. Or just simply kick the crap outta me and then take my wallet and car. No way I'm gonna take that chance, and letting him get within reach means that I've given him the choice to do what he pleases. Not gonna happen if I can prevent it.

    Anyway, both cops who took the report said I'd done nothing wrong and that I was perfectly within my rights. And per Texas self defense law, I know that they were right.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    "Don't mess with old geezers- - - -we're too slow to run, too feeble to fight, and too crabby to put up with a bunch of BS- - - -the only option left is to shoot ya!"
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    BAMAAK wrote: »
    I wonder if the police or a court of law would have said the same thing to a big strapping 25 yr old? I get the whole elderly thing and I would advise my mother to do the same thing, I'm just curious if beyond the common sense factor, i.e. ability to defend oneself, if there are two sets of unwritten rules. If it had come down to it and you had to defend yourself, would the 25 yr old be treated the same in court? I somehow doubt it. I'm sure a jury would look at it different, I wonder if a judge would.

    Good question, and yes, it would be a bit different, I think.

    I mentioned to the cop who phoned me back today that one reason I reported the incident was to prevent this guy from coming in and claiming he was threatened. The cop just laughed. "Yeah, right."

    So yes, age does make a difference and also physical fitness and such. Fact is however that I'm 73 and infirm. And yeah, the courts and judges and whomever would absolutely look at the case different were I 23 and 6-2 and a power lifter.

    My final guess is that the guy was just a vagrant and maybe druggie who was looking for a handout. But other vagrants have approached me and they would say ahead of time "Buddy can you spare five bucks?" And on occasion I've laid the five-spot on a railing or other place and let them take it. I've got enough cash to help someone who asks.

    But this guy didn't say a word, just kept walking toward me. That made me scared because I was unsure of his intent. I just did not wish to take the chance of his getting within arm's reach of me. At that point he's in charge.

    By the way, the encounter took place on private property, the parking lot zone adjacent my building. Soon as the guy stepped off the common sidewalk and entered the parking area, he was trespassing. It's not like it was a 7-11 or Walgreen. It is private property and even if it's the parking lot (actually a row of slots beneath the 2nd floor overhang) it is not public access at all, unless he has business there or has been invited there. That's Texas law -- the place was not at all public access even though there is no fence or barrier separating the sidewalk from the driveways. His stepping into the parking area made him an illegal entry. And with Texas' Castle Doctrine, I was totally within my rights to use a firearm to protect myself.

    If anyone who's studied the "no retreat" law / Castle Doctrine thinks otherwise, please let us know and we'll discuss it further. Knowledge of the law is an essential part of armed self defense, at least sensible self defense.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    "Don't mess with old geezers- - - -we're too slow to run, too feeble to fight, and too crabby to put up with a bunch of BS- - - -the only option left is to shoot ya!"
    Jerry

    That's kind of what one of the cops said. "The guy shoulda left you alone." and then very quietly, "He's damn lucky you didn't just shoot him."

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 10,015 Senior Member
    Similar thing happened to me while I was in Syracuse, NY on buisness. Except I was unarmed with just a small pocket knife because NYis so safe, they don't think I should have the right to carry....

    Sumdood starts walking up to me as I'm getting into the rental car. He mumbles something, and I reply "I don't have any cash" while Iopened the door of the car and put the door between me and Sumdood.

    He keeps coming up to me, and angled to get around the door. I stepped back a step, put my strong hand back like I was going to draw a gun (but it was just my pocket knife there, since NY Sucks), put my support hand out in the universal 'STOP' (in the name of...) gesture, and said very loudly "THAT IS FAR ENOUGH!!!"

    Sumdood stopped like he had walked into a brick wall. Mumbled something about washing the windows on the car (it was light freezing rain at the time- likely story), and then wandered off.

    Sounds like you did the right thing, Sam. Good deal.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    I spend a lot of time in Memphis, Birmingham, and a couple of other metropolitan areas in my job as a warranty inspector. Some of the shops I visit are in pretty rough areas, with lots of foot traffic by seedy-looking characters. I haven't had to draw down on anybody yet, or even given a verbal warning, but I have reached under my shirt tail to put a hand on my IWB piece, and given a couple of guys the stink-eye on occasion. They got the message!
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    I spend a lot of time in Memphis, Birmingham, and a couple of other metropolitan areas in my job as a warranty inspector. Some of the shops I visit are in pretty rough areas, with lots of foot traffic by seedy-looking characters. I haven't had to draw down on anybody yet, or even given a verbal warning, but I have reached under my shirt tail to put a hand on my IWB piece, and given a couple of guys the stink-eye on occasion. They got the message!
    Jerry

    I tried the eye thing and warned him at least 3 times prior to my displaying the gun. Unfortunately the initial warnings didn't work. Fortunately the sight of the gun did. Amazing how that works.

    Re: "Brandishing" -- that term is applicable to someone who displays a firearm for no valid reason (angry that someone cut you off in traffic, angry at neighbor over trash can placement, etc). But in accordance w. Texas law, I did have a valid reason to display my properly owned handgun even if I didn't have a CHL.

    Bigger the better is a good thought but in this case, a nice little satin black 5-shot snubbie was sufficient encouragement for the guy to remember he had a dental appointment elsewhere.

    I guess I could have told him: "This the the most powerful handgun--- okay, the second most--- okay, maybe third?" And just so you'll know, I never actually threatened to shoot him nor did I point the gun at him or say anything other than "Go away!" But that eventually worked.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    The "crime scene" -- view from my T-Bird, looking past the car to the street:

    apt01.jpg

    The horror if it all -- the cesspool where I live. I think one of my neighbors put his lawn clippings too near the curb last week (gasp). You can see how trashy and disruptive the neighborhood is (and kidding aside, why derelicts tend to avoid the area -- they simply are not tolerated):

    apt02.jpg

    apt03.jpg

    View from my car door toward where the guy was sitting on the sidewalk, adjacent the big tree. In maybe 2 steps he had left the common sidewalk and was on private property:

    apt04.jpg

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • shushshush Senior Member Posts: 6,259 Senior Member
    Now I can understand why he was so slow;
    samzhere wrote: »
    yellow sweater with pink tennies. .

    He was on his way back from the court after a five set match.

    cjp wrote: »..... Oh dear God, I've admitted to liking something Limey.I'll never hear the end of this.

    Jayhawker wrote: »...But seriously Shush....

    Big Chief wrote: ».........walking around with a greasy butt ain't no fun, though!

     


     

  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    shush wrote: »
    Now I can understand why he was so slow;

    He was on his way back from the court after a five set match.

    Yeah, that was it. He was just trying to find his rackets.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,031 Senior Member
    This is Texas, and unless you're in say Austin, it's perfectly within the law. It is in Austin too, but those damn Judges there are so Libtard you can be right and still get in trouble. Just Ask Tom Delay or Rick Perry. But that's another story. You did great Sam and you are here to tell us. That's the plus side.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    This is Texas, and unless you're in say Austin, it's perfectly within the law. It is in Austin too, but those damn Judges there are so Libtard you can be right and still get in trouble. Just Ask Tom Delay or Rick Perry. But that's another story. You did great Sam and you are here to tell us. That's the plus side.

    At least I'm here for a while longer.

    I've got no idea why these sort of things happen to me. As I said, I don't run a rough lifestyle -- well, okay, maybe my walker wheels need lube. But every now and then I cross paths with some sort of weirdo and occasionally it's led to my displaying a gun to stop the idiocy.

    I certainly didn't seek out this confrontation yesterday. But thus far nobody has told me how to deal with someone approaching me who won't go away. Other than maybe stay in my car, I guess.

    You're sadly right about Austin. Great town and I wish it were more conservative but that'll never happen.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    A couple days after this incident, I've done some thinking and want to report on the general things that came to my mind. I'd appreciate any feedback, positive or negative...

    I'm trying to imagine if there was any way possible for me to have avoided the situation of feeling the need to draw my gun to persuade this guy to leave me alone. It was suggested that I could have seen him, then either stayed in my car and called the cops, or reversed and driven off a while.

    I suppose that either of these would have been a less confrontational way to deal with it. And maybe in other legal jurisdictions that would have been more abiding with the laws.

    But this is Texas and we've got no requirement to flee or otherwise defer or hide from a potential attack (Castle Doctrine). And as I said previously, that's also not how I see things in my own life management. I have a perfect right to not be harassed and nobody should be able to impinge on my liberty or freedom.

    I was after all on my own property (in Texas, if you're a legal renter, you "own" the property where you live insofar as defense and other sorts of protection. There is a slight difference regarding the common property of an apartment complex (such as the shared parking area or lawn or walkways) and if you're inside your own apartment. This relates to "open carry" of a firearm. For example, in my apartment I can wear a holstered pistol. But I cannot do this walking around in the apartment parking lot, since Texas right now doesn't have open carry of sidearms (hopefully that will change in the new legislative session).

    But otherwise, I'm legally allowed to defend myself and my property on the common areas of an apartment complex -- which is where this incident occurred.

    And regardless of whether I'm on private property where I live or maybe at Walgreen's parking lot, I am still under no obligation to flee or leave in the face of a potential threat. Difference is in my own head -- I was HOME and not at Kroger or Wallyworld and that makes my actions more correct, as I see it, even if the current Texas law does not distinguish. The specifics relate to your being at your vehicle which is a legal extension of your property and therefore you're under no obligation to flee.

    When I was confronted by this guy -- he was walking straight toward me and there was no other place for me to go -- I simply did what I've been trained to do: I used my constitutional right to defend myself with potential lethal force. Thankfully the guy finally got the hint and turned and walked away, down the street. And yes, I kept him in view for a while to ensure he was gone.

    Back some years ago, I think it was 1992, my girlfriend (not my current gf) and I were awakened by a woman's screams, 3am on a summer night. Two young men were beating up and stomping this woman just across the street from where we lived and maybe 100 ft away. I asked my gf to call 911 and I went out w. my 1911 and flashlight. I hollered at the men (they were literally stomping this woman in the face and body while she was lying on the sidewalk screaming) and they stopped.

    She ran to me and I told her the cops were coming. The guys followed her but not running. They stopped just across the narrow street from me. One of the guys stepped out off the curb toward me and I raised the 1911 and aimed at him, flicked off the safety. It was a very scary moment. Then his buddy grabbed him and they took off running, cops arriving maybe 5 min later.

    One of the cops told me (typical for Houston cops) "You should have shot them both" and I said, no, I don't shoot people who are running from me.

    Same a couple days ago. The guy left and the threat was over. So even though I could have possibly gotten away legally with shooting the idiot I thankfully did not, nor did I consider it as soon as he turned and left.

    I'm trying to come up with the best way I could have dealt with this and maybe the suggestion that I stay in my car and call the cops might have been smarter. If I were maybe at the Kroger parking lot, that's likely what I would have done. But I was home and that makes the difference. As the cop told me yesterday "You have a right to be let alone."

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • JKPJKP Senior Member Posts: 1,901 Senior Member
    Since you are still fishing for input....

    Regardless of whether it is your right or within the law, if a potential conflict can be avoided avoid it! You sure do find lots of opportunities to "skin that smoke wagon..."
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,432 Senior Member
    I don't think anyone is questioning legality. I've never been in your shoes so I can't say what I would do. In my current shoes, I'm still able enough to deal with most homeless types w/o shooting them, at least the way you describe it. IMO, just because someone looks scary and is walking towards you does not justify killing them which is what sounds like would have happened had he continued a few more feet. In most places, I think a threat has to be real, not just percieved buy what any good lawyer would call paranoia. Lucky you live in Texas like you said. But you didn't shoot him thank goodness. Ask yourself what would you have done if you were not armerd.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,031 Senior Member
    JKP wrote: »
    If a threat was perceived why leave the vehicle especially with ambulatory issues?

    What you gonna do? Sit in the car until he leaves? or Attacks your car? You gonna call the cops because some bum is sitting around in the area? They're gonna appreciate having to respond to that.

    No, this is why we carry, so we don't have to sweat the BG. You never know whether the perceived threat will be real or not. I don't know what the outcome would have been in KC or any other city, but Houston is in Texas and our laws cover us for self defense. I think I would have done the very same thing Sam did.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • JKPJKP Senior Member Posts: 1,901 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    What you gonna do? Sit in the car until he leaves? or Attacks your car? You gonna call the cops because some bum is sitting around in the area? They're gonna appreciate having to respond to that.

    No, this is why we carry, so we don't have to sweat the BG. You never know whether the perceived threat will be real or not. I don't know what the outcome would have been in KC or any other city, but Houston is in Texas and our laws cover us for self defense. I think I would have done the very same thing Sam did.

    That isn't what I am going to do but it is what I recommend an older gentleman with limited mobility do.
  • Dr. dbDr. db Senior Member Posts: 1,541 Senior Member
    Girls shouldn't dress a certain way. Seasoned citizens shouldn't get out of their cars if there is a hinky loiterer. We should all move to better neighborhoods. Lock our doors, lock our cars, avoid certain neighborhoods, not cook bacon, etc. blah, blah. Check your six, yes! Stay in condition yellow at least, yes! But people should not have to walk on egg shells because of dirt balls.
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