BiMetal bullet jackets!!

Big Al1Big Al1 Senior MemberPosts: 7,052 Senior Member
When I go to the range, I always like to take a blaster along just to burn ammo and shoot the gongs so I'm not interested in precision accuracy. Since most of these are some form of military (AR platform of .45 auto, etc) semi-auto, and since I don't reload for semi's and hate picking up brass, I've been shooting some of the cheap Russian, steel case bimetal ammo. Yesterday, the range officer pointed out that the bimetal jacket is actually a copper washed steel jacketed lead core that appears to be a full copper jacket. He showed that the bullets are magnetic, and the copper wash is so thin that the rifling cuts into the steel jacket. What is boils down to, if you want to wear out your barrel fast, shoot bimetal!! When I got home I did some research and found this great article. Well, I learned something and I figured I'd pass on the info and give everyone a heads up, if you were not aware of this.
http://uspsa.org/front-sight-magazine-article.php?Should-I-Buy-BiMetal-Ammo-8
«1

Replies

  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Thanks, interesting article.

    I'm not sure how much wear a Bi-Metal bullet puts on a bbl. Plenty of Mosin Nagants have and other guns have survived over 100 years with steel core ammo and much worse with corrosive ammo. But that is a small steel core inside a lead core, but is it Bi-metal on the outside, the ammo?

    The shallow rifling in CZ 82s may not rub as much on Bi-metal bullets...........I dunno. I see his point very well, though.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Just how much does the rifling engage any bullet as it travels down a bore? Depends on the bbl and the bullet diameter, yes?
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,660 Senior Member
    The metal is softer than the steel in the barrel. I have fired a boat load of that stuff out of my Garand, Mini-30, SKS, AR-10, Nagant and I have absolutely no barrel damage due to this. I wouldn't worry about it, I don't.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,660 Senior Member
    Worrying about this is like worrying about how long you can leave a magazine loaded before the spring is ruined.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,420 Senior Member
    The "steel" jacket ammo probably has at least somewhat corrosive priming as well. I'd be more concerned about getting the barrel clean as soon after shooting as possible as there's probably more potential for rifling damage from rust than from jacket material wear. Some outdoor ranges don't like magnetic-jacket ammo because of the remote possibility of setting the place on fire because of sparks from bullet/rock impacts, especially in very dry conditions.
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,660 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    Some outdoor ranges don't like magnetic-jacket ammo because of the remote possibility of setting the place on fire because of sparks from bullet/rock impacts, especially in very dry conditions.
    Jerry

    We have the magnetic police out here. I shut down the range and had the owner out there when I caught one of those clowns going through my shooting bag while I was shooting at the bench.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • Big Al1Big Al1 Senior Member Posts: 7,052 Senior Member
    This is in regards to the bullet jacket and has nothing to do with a steel core or corrosive primers. The article was written by a man who is a "Microscopy and Imaging Specialist at the Electron Probe Instrumentation Center (EPIC) at Northwestern University, I have access to an amazing array of electron microscopes and related instrumentation." If you read it, it tells you how thick the copper and steel is and how deep the rifling cuts.
    I'm not concerned about what a Nagant or SKS can digest, but if you care about something worth more than 100 bucks, I wouldn't shoot!!

    Here we go!!:tooth:
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,660 Senior Member
    Big Al1 wrote: »
    but if you care about something worth more than 100 bucks, I wouldn't shoot!!

    Here we go!!:tooth:

    I care very much for my Garand and the Armalite AR-10 and I'm kinda fond of the mini-30 also. As I have said these rifles have fired a bunch of that ammo with no damage to the barrel and accuracy is quite impressive.

    Here We go. {Next year}:jester:
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    So what is that old ammo I read about called Cuupornickel (sp) or something?
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,101 Senior Member
    From the Military Arms Channel about bimetal jackets:

    Hardened tool steel has a rockwell hardness of 650/700 Brinell. Mild steel has a hardness of 120/130. Bi-metal jackets are made from very soft mild steel. Bores/barrels are at least as hard as tool steel and when chrome plated are even harder.

    Steel jacketed bullets are nothing new. The US had steel jacketed bullets in WWII chambered in 30-06 and 45 ACP. The M1 ball and M2 AP rounds of the era used steel jackets over a lead core with a copper wash over the steel -- just like Wolf bi-metal bullets.

    Frankford Arsenal conducted a test with steel jacketed 30-06 rounds around 1946 to determine if the rumors that steel jacketed bullets damaged the barrels more than copper jacketed bullets were true. In their testing they found that steel jacketed bullets not only didn't accelerate wear but they also discovered for the first 1000 rounds steel jacketed rounds were actually more accurate! After 1000 rounds the accuracy leveled off to be comparable to the copper jacketed bullets but no evidence of accelerated wear was discovered through 8,000 rounds of testing on their samples.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Naturally, shoot and drink the "Good Stuff" if ya have it, but here is a good explanation...........

    https://www.facebook.com/militaryarms/posts/516101628401641


    "Military Arms Channel
    November 7, 2012 ·

    I get asked all the time "will bi-metal bullets harm my bore". The answer is no, they won't. Here's why.

    Hardened tool steel has a rockwell hardness of 650/700 Brinell. Mild steel has a hardness of 120/130. Bi-metal jackets are made from very soft mild steel. Bores/barrels are at least as hard as tool steel and when chrome plated are even harder.

    Steel jacketed bullets are nothing new. The US had steel jacketed bullets in WWII chambered in 30-06 and 45 ACP. The M1 ball and M2 AP rounds of the era used steel jackets over a lead core with a copper wash over the steel -- just like Wolf bi-metal bullets.

    Frankford Arsenal conducted a test with steel jacketed 30-06 rounds around 1946 to determine if the rumors that steel jacketed bullets damaged the barrels more than copper jacketed bullets were true. In their testing they found that steel jacketed bullets not only didn't accelerate wear but they also discovered for the first 1000 rounds steel jacketed rounds were actually more accurate! After 1000 rounds the accuracy leveled off to be comparable to the copper jacketed bullets but no evidence of accelerated wear was discovered through 8,000 rounds of testing on their samples.

    In short, bi-metal bullets do not do any more damage to your firearms than conventional copper jacketed rounds do. All the claims of chamber wear, throat erosion and barrel wear are unsubstantiated wives tales."
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Man, Monkey posted before I did on same thing. Makes sense in a lot of ways.

    he left out the last paragraph..............................either a very nice guy or it didn't copy/highlight right..................

    "In short, bi-metal bullets do not do any more damage to your firearms than conventional copper jacketed rounds do. All the claims of chamber wear, throat erosion and barrel wear are unsubstantiated wives tales."
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,101 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    So what is that old ammo I read about called Cuupornickel (sp) or something?
    Cupro = copper
    Nickel = well, nickel.
    Also has some iron and manganese mixed in. They switched to copper (gilding metal) to reduce metal fouling.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cupronickel#Other_usage
    Overkill is underrated.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,101 Senior Member
    I don't know if it's being a nice guy, but I didn't copy it because that was opinion with a possibility for inflammation. Didn't think it added anything constructive.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Cupro = copper
    Nickel = well, nickel.
    Also has some iron and manganese mixed in. They switched to copper (gilding metal) to reduce metal fouling.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cupronickel#Other_usage


    Thanks, this place is a wealth of info, who needs a Shell Answer Man when we gots this forum!
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    I don't know if it's being a nice guy, but I didn't copy it because that was opinion with a possibility for inflammation. Didn't think it added anything constructive.

    Just like on here when like my Sig line says.............however I wanted to capture the essence of the authors assessment...........not really but sounded cool anyhow :jester:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Big Al1Big Al1 Senior Member Posts: 7,052 Senior Member
    Look's this is one of those controversies that can go on forever, since there is a butt load of info both pro and con about shooting the stuff.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Big Al1 wrote: »
    Look's this is one of those controversies that can go on forever, since there is a butt load of info both pro and con about shooting the stuff.

    Just don't fire Bi-metal ammo in a .270, the barrel will melt and set the stock on fire :jester:

    I don't have any qualms about firing it in my MILSURPS, especailly those that probably of had thousands of rounds of it pushed down the bore long before I acquired them. Also, in my CZ/Polish pistols.

    I think the explanation of the hardness of the steel in the bullet compared to the barrel hardness makes sense. However, there is an argument not to use/be cautious using stainless steel cleaning brushes because they are hard on barrels and even steel cleaning rods, so it does make one wonder.

    The issued cleaning rods in the Army are tool grade steel (very sturdy anyhow) that fit in the butt-stock and they do fit the bores fairly tight and I never heard of any issues from using them PROPERLY.

    GIs are resourceful in our Army and most others and believe me can find ways unheard of/unimagined to get around anything supposedly "GI Proof" after spending 20 years as one myself and 15 more working with them. I often was called on to do Report Of Surveys and ECODs on equipment damaged by them if they should be held liable.

    Good post, thank you and I'm anxious to see everyone responses.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Big Al1Big Al1 Senior Member Posts: 7,052 Senior Member
    I suppose it would be ok to fire in a pink Taurus, since they're both "bi".
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,420 Senior Member
    I think the statement "He could screw up an anvil with a feather duster" was originally written about a GI! I've seen some very creative equipment destruction caused by some fellow grunts on a work detail who wanted to create a little time to goldbrick.
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 7,041 Senior Member
    Only problem I have with steel jackets is that they usually come in non-reloadable cases.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,660 Senior Member
    Big Al1 wrote: »
    Look's this is one of those controversies that can go on forever, since there is a butt load of info both pro and con about shooting the stuff.

    I prefer personal experience. My experiences have been very good. Has anyone here damaged a barrel from this stuff.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • ilove22silove22s Senior Member Posts: 1,110 Senior Member
    i got some of the surplus CMP m1 Garand ammo that was sold several years ago. Thats about all the bimetallic ammo i have. I have some of the other non bimetallic ammo too, but i think that for what it is and how it will be used than it shouldn't be a problem.
    The ears never lie.

    - Don Burt
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,106 Senior Member
    Here's a test run on identical AR-15 rifles shooting various types of ammunition. It has lots of info on reliability issues, and barrel sectioning after test. The results speak for themselves.

    http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • HvyMaxHvyMax Senior Member Posts: 1,786 Senior Member
    Indoor ranges ban steel jackets as well because they tear up backstops.
    Wal Mart where the discriminating white trash shop.
    Paddle faster!!! I hear banjos.
    Reason for editing: correcting my auto correct
  • Big Al1Big Al1 Senior Member Posts: 7,052 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    Here's a test run on identical AR-15 rifles shooting various types of ammunition. It has lots of info on reliability issues, and barrel sectioning after test. The results speak for themselves.

    http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/

    Thanks Mike!! Great test!
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,106 Senior Member
    Big Al1 wrote: »
    Thanks Mike!! Great test!

    I had to dig for a while to find that one! It does answer the question about the bimetal jackets, and the different types of ammunition.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 23,967 Senior Member
    You can start a fire with an all copper bullet too; I did once with .45 acp.
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    NN wrote: »
    You can start a fire with an all copper bullet too; I did once with .45 acp.

    Well quit shootin those old white tip kitchen matches with your .45 :tooth:

    Good report Mike. That was ARs, what about bolt rifles? Never will be fired that much.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,106 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    Well quit shootin those old white tip kitchen matches with your .45 :tooth:

    Good report Mike. That was ARs, what about bolt rifles? Never will be fired that much.

    Been thinking on the subject of action types and the steel cased bullets all afternoon, off and on. Here's what my feeble mind comes up with. Regardless of action type, steel will be harder on barrels than copper, or gilding metal, jackets. It's not just a matter of hardness, it also is a matter of friction between bullet and barrel. And the rifling will cut deeper than the copper wash over the bullet and into the steel jacket. There is also the actual thickness of the steel jacket; the thicker the jacket, the more it will oppose the deformation of the rifling on the jacket and up the friction. Steel will have a higher coefficient of friction than copper.

    FWIW, if aluminum were much cheaper, and recycled more, bullet jackets of copper washed aluminum would be much more friendly to the lands and grooves of barrels. Soft aluminum alloys are actually as soft or softer than the copper plating, or a copper jacketed bullet.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



Sign In or Register to comment.
Magazine Cover

GET THE MAGAZINE Subscribe & Save

Temporary Price Reduction

SUBSCRIBE NOW

Give a Gift   |   Subscriber Services

PREVIEW THIS MONTH'S ISSUE

GET THE NEWSLETTER Join the List and Never Miss a Thing.

Get the top Guns & Ammo stories delivered right to your inbox every week.