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WDM Karamojo Bell

snake284snake284 Senior MemberPosts: 22,429 Senior Member
What is your opinion of Mr. Bell? I have heard all variety of comment on him from a fearless dare devil to a wise and calculating master to a vile poacher of game.

I have read several articles on him, but one I like is by Chuck Hawks,

http://www.chuckhawks.com/bell_elephants.htms.

I have also heard some speak ill of Mr. Hawks here. I must admit that I have been sort of a fan of his for awhile now. He seems to be a very knowledgeable ballistician and I feel he knows rifles well. This article, like it or not, does tell quite a bit about Walter Bell.

In answer to the charges that he was a poacher, this article points out that he always asked permission from the local tribal chief before he hunted. He would always give gifts to the chief in return for his permission. So if this article is correct, he believed in paying his way. And also at that time there was no law against killing elephant for ivory and there was no bag limit on them. Hence, I cannot agree that he was a poacher because he doesn't meet the definition. A poacher is someone who hunts game illegally, and since there were no laws against killing elephants and he had permission from the land owners wherever he hunted, then like him or not, he wasn't a poacher. In retrospect we can sit back and say he was being hard on the resource by killing so many for his own monitary gain, but it was all legal.

Also, Bell later in life when asked that if he were to return to Africa to shoot more elephants what would he use? He said he would use a larger 30 caliber. So I guess he maybe became uncomfortable with the smaller calibers.

Again, what are your opinions of WDM Karamojo Bell?
Daddy, what's an enabler?
Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
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Replies

  • PFDPFD Senior Member PNWPosts: 1,840 Senior Member
    I'm interested but I think there is a problem with the link:


    Not Found

    The requested URL /bell_elephants.htms was not found on this server.
    That's all I got.

    Paul
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Dellrose TNPosts: 18,428 Senior Member
    He chose to make a living killing elephants for their tusks. The buffalo runners, punt gunners, and other market hunters like the ones who drove the passenger pigeon to extinction also killed their quarry indiscriminately. Bell had little or no concern for whether or not he was over-harvesting- - - -the elephants were there, and there was a market for ivory. We can get all self-righteous about it, but there were no laws against his actions at the time. Fortunately, we know better than to do things like that now.

    There are still places in the world where the sheer numbers of animals are astounding, but there's no guarantee those numbers couldn't be reduced to a tiny fraction of the current population if reasonable management procedures aren't followed. The pictures Orchidman posted of migrating geese comes to mind, or the doves down in South America that get harvested by the hundreds. It might be hard to imagine taking enough of them to seriously reduce their population, but history tells us people thought the same thing about bison, African plains game, and some species of duck. They were wrong!
    Jerry
  • BPsniperBPsniper Banned Posts: 1,961 Senior Member
    I've never given him any thought. Chuck Hawks, don't care for him really. No particular reason. Just don't.

    I can see where you come up with the crazy unfounded notions you do, though. Reading Chuck Hawks.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    Weatherby wrote: »

    I got in a hurry when I said Chuck Hawks wrote that article, Because i didn't look real close. Oh well it wasn't Hawks. It was James Passmore. Anyway I read it on Hawk's site. Great article.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    So? Do I take that as an insult or as a difference in opinion. I can say some of your stuff is crazy and unfounded too. But i usually just shut up and go play in my own back yard nowdays. I happen to like Hawks. And if you give me no reason for your dislike of him, then I can't take it seriously.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • BPsniperBPsniper Banned Posts: 1,961 Senior Member
    You are more than welcome to take it however you deem fit. :beer:
  • beartrackerbeartracker Senior Member Posts: 3,116 Senior Member
    BPsniper wrote: »

    I can see where you come up with the crazy unfounded notions you do, though. Reading Chuck Hawks.

    I am interested in what you mean or what you are trying to say that you didn't say? Tell us why reading Chuck Hawks causes Mike to come up with the crazy unfounded notions you say he does?
  • BPsniperBPsniper Banned Posts: 1,961 Senior Member
    Hi, I'm earth. Have we met?

    (What movie is that from? :jester:)
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 9,696 Senior Member
    You can't really judge his character from how he hunted using today's sport-hunting ethics. One must note that managed game conservation was in it's absolute infancy at the time Bell was hunting, and in Africa, it hadn't been considered at all. It was a big place full of game that you could make a lot of money from by shooting, and that was all the thought most people gave to it. Much of the Dark Continent was still trackless wilderness full of natives who would be happy to kill you, sell you to slavers, or possibly even EAT you. Different time, different rules. Think about it - somebody tells you as a young man that you can finance a jet-setting, Ferrari-driving lifestyle by GOING HUNTING! Who among us would say no to that considering the common thinking of the day?

    Something of a renaissance man, by virtue of his varied interests, and the guy unquestionably had stones - not just in braving all the teeth and plagues Africa had to offer, but in getting himself involved in both world wars (bailing out stranded troops under fire, no less).

    Definitely ahead of his time (and possibly even ours) when it came to ballistics. He made the connection that foot-pounds and a few tenths of an inch in bullet diameter isn't likely to matter to a seven ton animal, and that simply penetrating deeply enough to perforate something important would kill with equal effectiveness. Interesting that his idea of "up-gunning" from a 7x57 for elephant amounted to basically a .30-06, not some fire-breathing express rifle, while today we would consider the two roughly equals. He ran against conventional wisdom (still does), in that he wasn't using a caliber starting with a number 4 or higher, but if he did indeed take out about a thousand elephants with only 1,500 rounds of ammo, you can't really find fault with his thinking. Would be cool to have met the guy.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    Great write up there Bigslug. I agree. That guy had BALLS!
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • BPsniperBPsniper Banned Posts: 1,961 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    Great write up there Bigslug. I agree. That guy had BALLS!

    :agree:
  • MileHighShooterMileHighShooter Senior Member Denver, COPosts: 4,996 Senior Member
    I'm not playing
  • BPsniperBPsniper Banned Posts: 1,961 Senior Member
    Awww, come on. Tell us again how you really feel about Bell. :tooth:
  • MileHighShooterMileHighShooter Senior Member Denver, COPosts: 4,996 Senior Member
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    BPsniper wrote: »
    Hi, I'm earth. Have we met?

    I don't think so.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • beartrackerbeartracker Senior Member Posts: 3,116 Senior Member
    BPsniper wrote: »
    Hi, I'm earth. Have we met?

    (What movie is that from? :jester:)

    Answer my question please.
  • beartrackerbeartracker Senior Member Posts: 3,116 Senior Member
    BP you said to Mike Walker,
    BPsniper wrote: »

    I can see where you come up with the crazy unfounded notions you do, though. Reading Chuck Hawks.

    I ask you
    I am interested in what you mean or what you are trying to say that you didn't say? Tell us why reading Chuck Hawks causes Mike to come up with the crazy unfounded notions you say he does?

    Now BP you made the assertion (A confident and forceful statement of fact or belief - The action of stating something or exercising authority confidently and forcefully). Now affirm your assertion and answer my question please.
  • beartrackerbeartracker Senior Member Posts: 3,116 Senior Member
    BP, you need to man up and affirm the assertion you made concerning Mike Walker and Chuch Hawks,
    BPsniper wrote: »

    I can see where you come up with the crazy unfounded notions you do, though. Reading Chuck Hawks.
    answering the question I ask you or admit you are a bully, who is arrogant and thinks he can get away with any assertion he makes about someones character and understanding, without having to answer for it or prove that it is the truth. Now either you make clear why Mike comes up with crazy unfounded notions because he reads Chuck Hawks and why reading Chuck Hawks would cause someone to do that, or keep your opinions and pronouncements to yourself. Waiting for you to back up your comments if you have the courage to do so.
  • BPsniperBPsniper Banned Posts: 1,961 Senior Member
    They both seem to regurgitate book information (what they read somewhere) with no real experience. That's how it appears to me.

    I don't dislike Snake. He has helped me out with information that he has actually learned first hand. Other times, he has made claims that were a little, off. He is a nice enough guy with plenty of enthusiasm. I think this enthusiasm gets the better of him at times.

    I do not pay for Chuck Hawk's site. So the free information you get is shallow and nothing but regurgitated numbers for the most part.

    I see a pattern here.

    So Mommy, what else is it you would like me to say?
  • WeatherbyWeatherby Senior Member Posts: 4,953 Senior Member
    So Mommy, what else is it you would like me to say?

    something about the hog hunt
  • BPsniperBPsniper Banned Posts: 1,961 Senior Member
    Check the original thread. :wink:
  • BPsniperBPsniper Banned Posts: 1,961 Senior Member
    BP, you need to man up and affirm the assertion you made concerning Mike Walker and Chuch Hawks, answering the question I ask you or admit you are a bully, who is arrogant and thinks he can get away with any assertion he makes about someones character and understanding, without having to answer for it or prove that it is the truth. Now either you make clear why Mike comes up with crazy unfounded notions because he reads Chuck Hawks and why reading Chuck Hawks would cause someone to do that, or keep your opinions and pronouncements to yourself. Waiting for you to back up your comments if you have the courage to do so.

    We have already covered my personality before. But I will remind you and I'm sure you will bring it up again.

    I am a stubborn, hard headed, opinionated, critical, judgemental bastige. I am hard on others as I am on myself. I don't put up with BS and I don't like fakes. Not big on kiss-butts either.

    If you don't want my opinion, you'll probably get it anyway. If you don't like my opinion.......you'll STILL get it anyway. I call a spade a spade and hold no remorse over doing so. If I think you are an idiot, I'll tell you. Because that is what I think. If I think you are a great guy, I'll tell you that as well.

    I dish out ridicule as I dish out praise. I am not a touchy feely guy for the sake of being touchy feely. I have lived a hard judged life with high standards and so that is how I view things. Meet the standards or find another place to exist. Put out or get out.

    We all screw up at times and we pay the price of doing so. How you handle your mistakes is the value of the man. Get up and keep going or quit and fail.

    I am a butt-head and hold no regret of that. I have earned that moniker. Much of my job is selecting those with the character, fortitude, determination, skill, and instinct, to perform. Meet the standard and make the cut. Exist on a sub-par level and get chewed up and spit out. No remorse. This is just not your game. Play somewhere else.

    Want my respect? Earn it! I ain't passing out freebies.

    So, there ya go. Me in a nutshell. You can poke and prod all you want. Attempt to analyze, correct, and theorize all you want. Call me what you will. I've probably heard it before. Bully? Yep. Arrogant? Yep. What else ya got? I've survived being the way I am. When it's time to change, I will. But, not yet.

    I'm not in the business of popularity. Only results.
  • BPsniperBPsniper Banned Posts: 1,961 Senior Member
    I got that, CPJ. You have too much time on your hands. Haha!
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    BPsniper wrote: »
    We have already covered my personality before. But I will remind you and I'm sure you will bring it up again.

    I am a stubborn, hard headed, opinionated, critical, judgemental bastige. I am hard on others as I am on myself. I don't put up with BS and I don't like fakes. Not big on kiss-butts either.

    If you don't want my opinion, you'll probably get it anyway. If you don't like my opinion.......you'll STILL get it anyway. I call a spade a spade and hold no remorse over doing so. If I think you are an idiot, I'll tell you. Because that is what I think. If I think you are a great guy, I'll tell you that as well.

    I dish out ridicule as I dish out praise. I am not a touchy feely guy for the sake of being touchy feely. I have lived a hard judged life with high standards and so that is how I view things. Meet the standards or find another place to exist. Put out or get out.

    We all screw up at times and we pay the price of doing so. How you handle your mistakes is the value of the man. Get up and keep going or quit and fail.

    I am a butt-head and hold no regret of that. I have earned that moniker. Much of my job is selecting those with the character, fortitude, determination, skill, and instinct, to perform. Meet the standard and make the cut. Exist on a sub-par level and get chewed up and spit out. No remorse. This is just not your game. Play somewhere else.

    Want my respect? Earn it! I ain't passing out freebies.

    So, there ya go. Me in a nutshell. You can poke and prod all you want. Attempt to analyze, correct, and theorize all you want. Call me what you will. I've probably heard it before. Bully? Yep. Arrogant? Yep. What else ya got? I've survived being the way I am. When it's time to change, I will. But, not yet.

    I'm not in the business of popularity. Only results.

    I'm not pissed at you for saying what you think. Never. I may not agree, but I have learned that we all have an opinion. But if you come down on me saying that I come up with crazy stuff for whatever reason, I would just appreciate an explanation of why. You can do it right here or in IM, I don't care, but I don't like being told I come up with crazy notions without explanation. That's all. You will find out that even though I disagree I still believe you have a right to think what you want. That's what the Constitution is all about and I'm a Constitutionalist.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • BPsniperBPsniper Banned Posts: 1,961 Senior Member
    I can respect that. Ask and ye shall receive. Beartracker playing bodyguard for you, of his own accord or upon request, is cheesy.
  • beartrackerbeartracker Senior Member Posts: 3,116 Senior Member
    BPsniper wrote: »
    I can respect that. Ask and ye shall receive. Beartracker playing bodyguard for you, of his own accord or upon request, is cheesy.

    I am noboby's man, he ask nothing of me, I did it on my own. Also, I am not your Mommy and glad of it, but it is what it is, and at least you made and attempt to answer the question and support your assertion, feeble as it is. You are certainly a piece of work, but I have little respect for you, in fact none because you certainly have not earned mine and I don't need or want yours. Someone who says he likes Mike Walker yet bashes him from the time, and when you do are very rude in the process, but he is not the only one you have done that to. Yes, I see a pattern. BP, your are the bully you claim to be, your are the rude butt head you say your are, and your are arrogant to boot, but that has been your pattern so how could we expect anything else, even the poor response in defense of an indefensible attitude and demeanor. It is what it is and you have said your part and I have said mine. I doubt you will ever change so it is what it is and I can live with that.
  • BPsniperBPsniper Banned Posts: 1,961 Senior Member
    Ah, success. Carry on.
  • beartrackerbeartracker Senior Member Posts: 3,116 Senior Member
    BPsniper wrote: »
    Ah, success. Carry on.

    Agreed!! Time to move on.
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