Texas: Open carry & campus carry?

samzhere

Here's a little note regarding how the Texas senate gave preliminary approval to a bill that allows concealed carry on state-owned college campuses (campii as Rush Limbaugh says?). Earlier they had approved an open carry bill that would allow handgun open carry most everywhere.

This is a result of the big conservative sweep in the November election, with already Republican Texas (all of the state elected positions are Republican) going even more conservative, electing a very conservative governor and lieutenant gov (lt. gov in Texas is a powerful position), plus stronger majorities in both the senate and house. The new governor has already stated that he'll sign the open carry and campus carry bills.

It does work, folks. But you have to get out there and vote. And as I always remind people, the primaries are where you can get true conservatives nominated. Here in Texas, conservative Republicans wiped out the more liberal candidates in the primary, and despite Democrat and RINO gripes that they would be defeated in the general election, won by huge margins.

http://www.click2houston.com/news/texas-senate-approves-concealed-campus-carry-gun-bill/31873928

bisley

samzhere wrote: »

It does work, folks. But you have to get out there and vote. And as I always remind people, the primaries are where you can get true conservatives nominated. Here in Texas, conservative Republicans wiped out the more liberal candidates in the primary, and despite Democrat and RINO gripes that they would be defeated in the general election, won by huge margins.

Conservative candidates with a small amount of personality can usually win, unless their opposition has 2-3 times as much money to spend and the entire DNC machine working the streets and staffing the voting sites. That's how Terry McAuliffe got elected governor, in Virginia. He was a terrible candidate, based on his record, but they managed to stifle all of that and smear the Republican just enough that he didn't have enough media time to counter it, thanks to the Republican leadership not supporting his conservative agenda.

Texas and other similar states may eventually save the Democrat Party, by forcing them to moderate from their radical leftist agenda. It would be a good thing to someday have choice between two sensible candidates.

I'm not likely to open carry, except maybe during hunting season, but it would be nice to know I could. And the college carry should preclude a Virginia Tech type massacre. I wish my daughter could carry in the high school where she works, but that is more of a local school board problem than a state problem.

LMLarsen

We've had open carry in Virginia for many years, but I've only exercised it while hiking or camping, where I could. I much prefer concealed carry in town, for obvious OPSEC reasons.

I concur that any legal carry on school campuses would be a deterrent to active shooters, whether by students or teachers..

bullsi1911

Been following this with interest. I will almost never OC, but it is good to have the option.

From what I understand, you have to have a Concealed handgun license to open carry. Which makes sense- if you are a politician

Baby steps. Get this passed, in 2 years, drop the license req. for OC... Then 2 more years and go for constitutional carry!

HvyMax

America!!! I hear it's nice!!!

samzhere

The measure I would most like passed is unlikely: to allow CHL in taverns. The one significant hazard I ever face is if I'm attending a live show of a local blues or rock band, and afterward (1am) head to the parking lot. It's not the need to CHL in the tavern itself, but afterward, getting to the car. And yeah, I've asked these bands to come over to my apartment to play or to play at 2pm but no success there, either.

Texas law prohibits CHL in bars or taverns in which the revenue is at least 51% from alcohol. Therefore, restaurants that serve booze are okay for CHL but not actual bars.

Re. the open carry, I agree that it's constitutional but also a hassle because people will stare and I frankly don't want to raise attention. So I'm okay if they pass this bill but I'll continue concealed carry regardless.

Nevertheless, it's good to see more and more weapons freedom come to the fore.

kansashunter

One thing about open carry is if you are concealed carrying and for some reason it becomes seen you are still legal, that's one reason they passed it here. We are getting real close to concealed carry without a license. Sam as I understand our law here you can carry in a bar but you cannot drink while carrying anywhere. I think this makes sense.

samzhere

Carrying and drinking here in Texas is the same as for driving. You can drink but cannot be drunk. If you're found to be legally drunk and you're carrying at the time, your license is permanently revoked. Which makes sense to me. When I'm driving I am extremely careful with my drinking, 2 beers max and that actually means 2 beers. This, in my opinion, is also a reasonable standard (not being impaired legally) for carrying a weapon, too.

snake284

samzhere wrote: »

Carrying and drinking here in Texas is the same as for driving. You can drink but cannot be drunk. If you're found to be legally drunk and you're carrying at the time, your license is permanently revoked. Which makes sense to me. When I'm driving I am extremely careful with my drinking, 2 beers max and that actually means 2 beers. This, in my opinion, is also a reasonable standard (not being impaired legally) for carrying a weapon, too.

Yeah Sam and aside from any Anti plot to keep us from carrying or making it a PITA to carry, I agree with the no carry in bars too. Even in the bad ass wild west they made you check your guns at the door of a saloon. Alcohol and Gun Powder mix about as well a Alcohol and Gasoline. Yeah, I know I raise hell about No Gun Zones and this makes a bar a NO GUN ZONE pretty much, but you have a choice to go in a bar or not. It's not the same as going in an airport or going to a school. And when at those places you're more than likely sober. So when you go out bar hopping leave the guns at home. Even at places like the SE Shoot, the booze doesn't come out until the guns are put up, or so it was when I went and most every other shooting event I've ever been to.

Shooting sports as a whole are very safe, but there's a good reason they are. Most all Law abiding shooters are responsible citizens. We take our sport serious and try to make it as safe as possible.

timc

I think as long as you are not drinking I see no problem with carrying in a bar. That is the way they do it in Arizona, no reason why the D/D can't carry.

samzhere

Well, agree mostly with you, snake.

But hey, like I said, the bands just won't come over to my house to play and they insist on playing in taverns and clubs and starting at 10pm.

I don't go out a lot late night but there are about 3-4 local groups whom I try to see every 6 months or so. And a couple years ago, Dave Alvin played at this local club on tour. And yeah, I could stay home but then I'd miss the good music.

So I have a dilemma -- stick the .380 or snubby .357 in my back pocket anyway, or leave it in the car. Not that I would EVER disobey the carry law in a bar, you know.

And understand, inside the bar itself, zero problems. I don't go to rough places ever, day or night. The music clubs I am talking about are very well run and decent places, and they toss drunks and rowdies out asap. It's going to my car at 1am that's the problem.

Let's face it -- thugs and jerks will carry a gun anyway, regardless of whether it's legal. I "fondly" remember watching a high stakes 9-ball game in which one of the guys pulled out a very illegal gun and shot his opponent dead, one right to the forehead.

Allowing guns in a tavern carried by CHL license holders is not likely to create a problem however, since CHL folks are vetted and trained and very few get involved in a "bad" shooting.

I have, for years, been super tight on myself for my drinking & driving. I limit myself to two (2) yes actually 2 beers, period, when I'm out. If I'm at a club, I'll have a Bud or two right away and then switch to Coke for the rest of the evening. Heading out at 130am on the Houston streets is not where you want to be if you've been drinking -- cops are out there ready. So I'm stone sober by that time of night.

It's getting TO my car that worries me. And as I say, I'm not out a lot late nights, maybe every couple months to see a fave local band. And usually, the lot is just outside the bar and generally they've got a handicap slot.

A small matter, I realize. But generally, a CHL holder should really be okay with carrying most anywhere, except of course places like airports and courtrooms.

Varmintmist

snake284 wrote: »

I agree with the no carry in bars too. Even in the bad ass wild west they made you check your guns at the door of a saloon. Alcohol and Gun Powder mix about as well a Alcohol and Gasoline. Yeah, I know I raise hell about No Gun Zones and this makes a bar a NO GUN ZONE pretty much,

Do you have ANY facts to back that up?
What state that permits either carry w/o a permit or carry by adults w/permits has a problem with CCW in

Or Sam, same question except with the mandatory scamming, er training done by the less gun friendly states. How about a fact that "training" does anything except turn people off and put a tax on the right to carry?

Allowing guns in a tavern carried by CHL license holders is not likely to create a problem however, since CHL folks are vetted and trained and very few get involved in a "bad" shooting.

bullsi1911

Varmintmist wrote: »

Do you have ANY facts to back that up?
What state that permits either carry w/o a permit or carry by adults w/permits has a problem with CCW in

Or Sam, same question except with the mandatory scamming, er training done by the less gun friendly states. How about a fact that "training" does anything except turn people off and put a tax on the right to carry?

Oh, they thought about that when they wrote the law. There is a low cost one if you can prove you are poor. ::Eyeroll::

And yes, I feel license fees are worse than poll taxes. Why? Because voting is not in the bill of rights. Carrying guns is

snake284

Varmintmist wrote: »

Do you have ANY facts to back that up?
What state that permits either carry w/o a permit or carry by adults w/permits has a problem with CCW in

Or Sam, same question except with the mandatory scamming, er training done by the less gun friendly states. How about a fact that "training" does anything except turn people off and put a tax on the right to carry?

All I got to say is a Piece of Paper isn't going to make up for someone mentally impaired whether naturally or with Alcohol. All it takes is one person whose personality changes drastically under the influence to make something bad happen.

What are you talking about asking, "Do I have any facts to back that up?" No sometimes common sense should be enough.

Varmintmist

Name the last guy in NH that took down a bar with a concealed handgun. How about a PA lic holder? Name any state where there has been a rash of shootings by CCW holders in bars.

There is no evidence to back it up, it isnt common sense anymore than monsters under the bed as far as I can tell.

samzhere

snake284 wrote: »

All I got to say is a Piece of Paper isn't going to make up for someone mentally impaired whether naturally or with Alcohol. All it takes is one person whose personality changes drastically under the influence to make something bad happen.

What are you talking about asking, "Do I have any facts to back that up?" No sometimes common sense should be enough.

I agree with you generally, snake. But there IS a difference between being impaired by excess alcohol and someone having 1 or 2 beers in an evening. I realize that you're a recovering alcoholic (and I laud you for that!) but most folks really can "hold their liquor" -- I equate carrying a weapon with driving a vehicle, and driving (or carrying) after 2 beers is different from doing the same if drunk.

But I also agree with varmint. There are simply no real cases in evidence that there is a trend that generally law abiding people get into "gun trouble" in bars. Thugs do it all the time however, gun laws or not.

I admit that there may be one or two isolated cases of a gun licensee getting drunk and having a stupid shootout, but as I contend, there's a genuine difference between having a drink and being drunk.

bisley

bullsi1911 wrote: »

Oh, they thought about that when they wrote the law. There is a low cost one if you can prove you are poor. ::Eyeroll::

And yes, I feel license fees are worse than poll taxes. Why? Because voting is not in the bill of rights. Carrying guns is

My personal opinion is that Texas will drag its feet on Constitutional Carry, or anything else that ends licensing, because they don't want to give up the revenue. Since we don't have a state income tax, the state relies heavily on that kind of income. I know this bothers Democrats, and probably some Republicans, too, if they would admit it.

samzhere

Good point, bis, something I really didn't consider, revenue from licensing.

However, on this matter, I think it's a zero sum game -- the fees for the CHL are set intentionally low and are meant (I think this is actually written into the original bill re. fees but I could be wrong on that point) that the fees are only meant to recover the operating costs of the licensing program and not to enhance general revenue. And if you look at it, the approx 70 bucks for issuing a photo ID and keeping all the needed records and updating and sending out notices, etc, is about what I guess it would actually cost the state for simply the overhead needed to maintain the licenses.

So on this specific matter, I do think that the licensing fees are minimal and not really a genuine revenue source. I of course could be wrong, as I often am.

No, I think it's a matter of general inertia in any legislature for any already-in-effect item. Legislators everywhere are always reluctant to overturn a prior measure. Modify it, sure. But repeal it? Inertia generally wins. Just my 2 cents.

bisley

There is another thing that figures in to this, too. I don't think most Texans get all that 'fired up' about removing restrictions on gun owners, because they mostly do whatever they want, already.

In rural Texas, LEOs tend to not place a lot of emphasis on policing people who fit the 'solid citizen' profile. The county sheriff has a lot of influence on what laws get paid attention to, even by State Troopers and Texas Rangers. With all of the big counties and wide open spaces, most county sheriffs expect people to take care of themselves against the criminal element, and don't work overtime trying to bust people for just having weapons. Known criminals or shady acting characters, on the other hand, get pretty close scrutiny. It isn't as ridiculous as the movies have portrayed, but it exists, and actually works OK most of the time.

samzhere

Agreed. And the same goes for urban police, at least for the Houston area cops with whom I've had contact.

Yes, there are jerk cops everywhere and also a lot of total "by the book" cops who simply do not bend either way and play it 100% straight.

But in the vast majority of my contact with cops (all of them here being urban) I've seen that they "know their civilian friends" and make allowances.

I have only 1 personal type of sticker on my car, that's my "100 Club" rear window decal. The 100 Club (annual fee $100) is an org that helps families of first responders (mostly cops and firefighters) who die in the line of duty. And frankly, that sticker has gotten me out of a fair number of speeding tickets (I generally regard the posted speed limit -- except in special places like school zones -- as recommended minimums).

Also, and this is what most right-minded cops will tell you privately -- that folks w. a CHL (concealed carry) are big cop supporters and will usually get a break.

Sure, if you're blatantly breaking the law, they will act -- I got a red-light turn ticket a few years back -- but generally they will cut you a break.

I've also made a point to drop by the local precinct HQ and chat occasionally, and give them a Montrose Beer & Gun club t-shirt, and this helps. They know who their friends are and remember this.

Back some years ago when I had a very close and quite serious near-shooting incident, I was totally supported by the cops who took the call. Same for other similar smaller problems.

So my general impression is that urban cops are also of the same mind as you describe the rural guys. At least that's been my experience.

snake284

samzhere wrote: »

Well, agree mostly with you, snake.

But hey, like I said, the bands just won't come over to my house to play and they insist on playing in taverns and clubs and starting at 10pm.

I don't go out a lot late night but there are about 3-4 local groups whom I try to see every 6 months or so. And a couple years ago, Dave Alvin played at this local club on tour. And yeah, I could stay home but then I'd miss the good music.

So I have a dilemma -- stick the .380 or snubby .357 in my back pocket anyway, or leave it in the car. Not that I would EVER disobey the carry law in a bar, you know.

And understand, inside the bar itself, zero problems. I don't go to rough places ever, day or night. The music clubs I am talking about are very well run and decent places, and they toss drunks and rowdies out asap. It's going to my car at 1am that's the problem.

Let's face it -- thugs and jerks will carry a gun anyway, regardless of whether it's legal. I "fondly" remember watching a high stakes 9-ball game in which one of the guys pulled out a very illegal gun and shot his opponent dead, one right to the forehead.

Allowing guns in a tavern carried by CHL license holders is not likely to create a problem however, since CHL folks are vetted and trained and very few get involved in a "bad" shooting.

I have, for years, been super tight on myself for my drinking & driving. I limit myself to two (2) yes actually 2 beers, period, when I'm out. If I'm at a club, I'll have a Bud or two right away and then switch to Coke for the rest of the evening. Heading out at 130am on the Houston streets is not where you want to be if you've been drinking -- cops are out there ready. So I'm stone sober by that time of night.

It's getting TO my car that worries me. And as I say, I'm not out a lot late nights, maybe every couple months to see a fave local band. And usually, the lot is just outside the bar and generally they've got a handicap slot.

A small matter, I realize. But generally, a CHL holder should really be okay with carrying most anywhere, except of course places like airports and courtrooms.

But see Sam you and I see this differently. I see no problem carrying in an airport or court room because these right now are no gun zones that you may have no choice going into. But you have a choice of going into a bar. AND how many people in a bar are NOT drinking? Mostly just the ones that work there. And then some of them drink too.