Bruce Jenner comes out...

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Replies

  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,556 Senior Member
    I actually worked with a transgender cop...male to female, and knew the before and after. I can tell you this: the guy was no handsome adonis going into the surgery, and afterwards he/she made a REAL FUGLY woman.

    The neighbor who lives on the street behind us said the (now) guy who lives across the street from us is a he/she/it................ cannot be dispelled visually.

    edit; No CPJ, I have not seen it naked.
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,743 Senior Member
    jbp-ohio wrote: »
    The neighbor who lives on the street behind us said the (now) guy who lives across the street from us is a he/she/it................ cannot be dispelled visually.

    It's a lot more common than most people think, and no one chooses to be this way. Suicide rates for TG individuals are through the roof. You don't commit suicide over a choice you make.
    According to surveys, 4.6 percent of the overall U.S. population has self-reported a suicide attempt, with that number climbing to between 10 and 20 percent for lesbian, gay or bisexual respondents. By comparison, 41 percent of trans or gender non-conforming people surveyed have attempted suicide.

    http://www.vocativ.com/culture/lgbt/transgender-suicide/
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,220 Senior Member
    It's a lot more common than most people think, and no one chooses to be this way. Suicide rates for TG individuals are through the roof. You don't commit suicide over a choice you make.
    I would think that the high suicide attempt rate can be blamed on mental illnesses. What I am wondering (and have no idea of the real answer) is TG a mental illness that some have tried to pass off as normal, or should we treat them as mentally ill and try to get these people help? If it is not a mental illness, how do we explain and understand better?
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    I guess the only real way to tell these days is have them

    Drum Roll Please....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

    er........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................


    DROP THEIR GENES :tooth: :punch: :spittingcoffee: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,743 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    I would think that the high suicide attempt rate can be blamed on mental illnesses. What I am wondering (and have no idea of the real answer) is TG a mental illness that some have tried to pass off as normal, or should we treat them as mentally ill and try to get these people help? If it is not a mental illness, how do we explain and understand better?

    Could it be considered a developmental abnormality? Probably. Is there a way to "fix" it? No, probably not.

    Jerm, how do you know you're a man? Is it because of the equipment you were born with and what your parents told you when you were born and how they raised you, or is there something deeper inside that you that tells you who you are? If your parents told you you were a girl and raised you like one, would it feel natural to act like one or would it eventually start to feel weird to you and would you start questioning things?

    As for "mental illness" it's a hypothesis for the high suicide rate, although the much more reasonable explanation occam's razor explanation for the high suicide attempt rate is that kids and people can be terrible to individuals who are not "normal" or at least don't do a good enough job of hiding their "abnormalities". Being bullied and ostracized are pretty common themes among the suicidal. Probably doesn't need a deeper explanation than that.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,055 Senior Member
    In my early years of working in EMS, I went to a call where a guy removed his manhood - all of it - with a Gillette Blue Blade after numbing the area with an ice pack and putting 911 on speed dial...after controlling the bleeding, I had the opportunity to talk with the guy on the way to the hospital. At the time gender reassignment surgery was a relatively new thing and he said that his psychiatrist wasn't taking him seriously...so he took matters in hand...so to speak...Bottom line...it takes a seriously disturbed person to go to these lengths....IMHO
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,743 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    Bottom line...it takes a seriously disturbed person to go to these lengths....IMHO

    That's one way of looking at it. However, try just for a few min to think about how your would feel if you were the exact same person, but born with internal plumbing? How would you feel after living that way for your entire life?

    Was the person you picked up disturbed because she thought she was a woman, or did she become disturbed because no one took her seriously? I can't imagine the internal struggles that someone who feels trapped in the wrong body goes through, but it can't be a pleasant existence.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,220 Senior Member
    I will say that gender identity appears to be a creation of society. In a different world, I can see where "being manly" could include prancing around in pink dresses and panty hose. I am a child of the 80's. I remember when the men had big beautiful hair, and the women had bigger hair yet! The definition of gender and what a man and woman is has changed over the centuries as well. I understand the concept of feminine men and masculine women.

    I do not understand the concept of a man being trapped in a woman's body or vice-versa. That is determined by their own DNA and not society. I think if a man wants to run around in a skirt (or kilt), it is just fine because all they are doing is thumbing their nose at society. When they want to have their junk hacked off and insist on using the ladies room, I think we are getting into mental illness. I think the surgeons that are hacking people's junk off and other accommodating people are treating the symptoms of mental illness and ignoring a cure. You don't help a person that washes their hands 200 times a day by installing a sink in every room of their house-- you help them with the problem that have which is excessive hand washing.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,599 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    I will say that gender identity appears to be a creation of society. In a different world, I can see where "being manly" could include prancing around in pink dresses and panty hose. I am a child of the 80's. I remember when the men had big beautiful hair, and the women had bigger hair yet! The definition of gender and what a man and woman is has changed over the centuries as well. I understand the concept of feminine men and masculine women.

    I do not understand the concept of a man being trapped in a woman's body or vice-versa. That is determined by their own DNA and not society. I think if a man wants to run around in a skirt (or kilt), it is just fine because all they are doing is thumbing their nose at society. When they want to have their junk hacked off and insist on using the ladies room, I think we are getting into mental illness. I think the surgeons that are hacking people's junk off and other accommodating people are treating the symptoms of mental illness and ignoring a cure. You don't help a person that washes their hands 200 times a day by installing a sink in every room of their house-- you help them with the problem that have which is excessive hand washing.

    THANK YOU!

    All the joking I get on this forum aside, I don't consider myself TG at all, I'm just a guy in a skirt. Although I have some possible theories for the existence of TG individuals, said theories are probably all wrong as this isn't my path. But similar to what Jerm is saying, there's a difference between "feminine/masculine" and feminine/masculine (with, then without, quotes). "Feminine/Masculine" (with quotes) has no basis in reality - men wear pants, women wear skirts; that whole argument has no basis in ultimate reality - someone made all this stuff up! Feminine/masculine (no quotes) has at least some basis in reality as this identifies with biology. And even that is a bit slippery.

    Now is the prevalence of MtF TGs due to "whatever" causing them to truly feel that they're a woman in a man's body? I have zero idea, its not my path so I can't say either way. But I do think that there's quite a few who are frustrated at being denied beauty and thus feel the only way to obtain beauty for themselves is to become a woman - which is silly, beauty is for men too, all that has to be done is to reach out and embrace it for yourself. There's no way a man can truly become a woman anyway (as I see it), and there's really no need to try - at least in the "frustrated beauty" scenario.

    I feel sorry for those who, again for "whatever" reason, feel compelled to go through with the whole surgery/hormone thing. I hope they find their happiness - I know one net-friend who transitioned - s/he told me post-op about some of the things that must be done daily to maintain the new body and its plumbing. Its NOT trivial! She has since disappeared into Bulgaria (from the U.K.) the last time I heard from her several years ago. I hope she's happy...

    I can't imagine that a surgically altered body like this would age well either, although many years ago there was a full spread of a MtF in Penthouse or Hustler that was pretty convincing at the time.

    If any of the above psychobabble makes sense...
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,743 Senior Member
    Thanks for weighing in Zorba. What a lot of people having trouble understanding is that there is a big difference between someone who is TG and a cross-dresser.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Thanks for weighing in Zorba. What a lot of people having trouble understanding is that there is a big difference between someone who is TG and a cross-dresser.

    So a REAL TG could dress up like the opposite sex and really feel it is them inside whereas a a run of the mill pervert can do it and just be a weirdo fake?
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,599 Senior Member
    Hmmm. I don't really like the term "Cross dresser". I consider it being "cross dressing" only if it involves a bra or a jock strap - thus invoking biology men (bra) or women (jock strap) don't have. Women aren't called "cross dressers" for wearing pants, for instance - as they shouldn't be as both men and women have legs! :blah:

    This may not work for you, but it does for me...
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    So how does a transvestite dwarf with sadomasochistic tendencies, who is also has ADHD and is Bipolar who wants to undergo a gender change fit in to all this? :tooth:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,235 Senior Member
    I don't know if there is a cure for someone who wants to change their gender identity. Plus, getting your junk hacked off hurts no one but you. Cross dressing (I like the term just fine) hurts absolutely no one, not even the cross dresser.

    I think it's a compulsion for which I don't understand, but I don't think it's a threat to our civilization. A long time ago, mothers would dress their sons like girls out of a superstition that evil spirits wanted to take boys, but not girls. Maybe it was an unstated fear of pedophiles.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,599 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    So how does a transvestite dwarf with sadomasochistic tendencies, who is also has ADHD and is Bipolar who wants to undergo a gender change fit in to all this? :tooth:

    VERY carefully! :jester:
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,599 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    I don't know if there is a cure for someone who wants to change their gender identity. Plus, getting your junk hacked off hurts no one but you. Cross dressing (I like the term just fine) hurts absolutely no one, not even the cross dresser.

    I think it's a compulsion for which I don't understand, but I don't think it's a threat to our civilization. A long time ago, mothers would dress their sons like girls out of a superstition that evil spirits wanted to take boys, but not girls. Maybe it was an unstated fear of pedophiles.

    True enough!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,729 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    So how does a transvestite dwarf with sadomasochistic tendencies, who is also has ADHD and is Bipolar who wants to undergo a gender change fit in to all this? :tooth:

    I think his screen name is "buffco"
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Wasn't their a murder case a few years ago (TX?) where a dude thought he was picking up a woman in a bar, but by deception it was a dude and he was so outraged when they later went to an apt and he got an er.........handful of something he did not expect. He killed the transvestite and was acquitted I believe.

    So if they use it for deception, it can be harmful and wrong.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,599 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    So if they use it for deception, it can be harmful and wrong.

    I agree.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,599 Senior Member
    Badda-bing!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,458 Senior Member
    It's a lot more common than most people think, and no one chooses to be this way. Suicide rates for TG individuals are through the roof. You don't commit suicide over a choice you make.


    I don't care how common it is or isn't, but to say that 'it's not a choice' is disingenuous. You may not 'choose' how you feel about your gender, but the choice to transition is just that...a choice. As for 'not choosing to commit suicide over a choice you've made'...this statement is foolish as well as inaccurate. People kill themselves for all sorts of reasons, quite often over choices they've made.

    I fully expected you to take the role of 'accepting' these choices, but I figured, of all of us, you would at least defend your position more artfully. This is disappointing.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,235 Senior Member
    I'm glad I'm a normal guy who is only attracted to sheep.....uh, that is normal, right? Isn't it?
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,599 Senior Member
    As long as they're not goats...
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,599 Senior Member
    coolgunguy wrote: »
    I don't care how common it is or isn't, but to say that 'it's not a choice' is disingenuous. You may not 'choose' how you feel about your gender, but the choice to transition is just that...a choice. As for 'not choosing to commit suicide over a choice you've made'...this statement is foolish as well as inaccurate. People kill themselves for all sorts of reasons, quite often over choices they've made.

    I fully expected you to take the role of 'accepting' these choices, but I figured, of all of us, you would at least defend your position more artfully. This is disappointing.

    I won't get in the middle of this disagreement - but I will say that EVERY action one takes in life has consequences. Some of these consequences aren't fair, "shouldn't be", are wrong, cruel, etc, etc. Nevertheless, they're there and one needs to carefully weigh each and every action - and be prepared to deal with the fallout, both good AND bad. Its called "life". Life sucks sometimes - then you die.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,220 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    Wasn't their a murder case a few years ago (TX?) where a dude thought he was picking up a woman in a bar, but by deception it was a dude.
    I seem to recall a song about that...
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,220 Senior Member
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,235 Senior Member
    zorba wrote: »
    As long as they're not goats...

    Goats??? That would be perverted! Jeez!
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,055 Senior Member
    There's a difference between a pervert and a true TG person....we had a middle-aged guy (Government Employee) at work who was supposedly going through the gender reassignment routine...living as a woman...he was wearing dresses, make-up, etc.. and of course, the government human resources folks, fell all over themselves trying to "accommodate" him. It was using the women's restroom that caused an issue...the ladies would be in the bathroom "doing their business" and he would come in and take a leak standing up....which really (no pun intended) pissed themoff. We ended up installing a lock on the restroom door....which made the ladies feel better, but infuriated the guy. He ended up going down the road because he thought part of"being a woman" entitled him to cop a feel now and then...(he also wanted to be a lesbian)...which got him slapped a time or two and generated a number of sexual harassment complaints...he was also getting lousy performance appraisals and a sick leave abuser...of course none of this was his fault and everyone just hated him for being "different". Last I heard of him, he wasn't as gender-confused as he made out, married his girlfriend and is content living his life as an ugly guy....Its people like this who give true transgender folks a bad name.....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,419 Senior Member
    I think Jerry Reed has the right idea- - - -if you can't tell exactly what you're looking at with the first glance, taking another look isn't going to be necessary!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVKbxWLV4dY

    :vomit:
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,743 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    Its people like this who give true transgender folks a bad name.....

    Absolutely! This type of crap definitely happens and does a lot of harm IMHO.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
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