Bruce Jenner comes out...

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Replies

  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,460 Senior Member
    zorba wrote: »
    I won't get in the middle of this disagreement - but I will say that EVERY action one takes in life has consequences. Some of these consequences aren't fair, "shouldn't be", are wrong, cruel, etc, etc. Nevertheless, they're there and one needs to carefully weigh each and every action - and be prepared to deal with the fallout, both good AND bad. Its called "life". Life sucks sometimes - then you die.


    There's no disagreement...I'm telling him he's wrong. :jester:

    Life is freaking CHOCK FULL of choices and they come about constantly. To think that what Mr. Jenner is doing isn't a choice is to ignore the blatantly obvious.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,744 Senior Member
    coolgunguy wrote: »
    There's no disagreement...I'm telling him he's wrong. :jester:

    Life is freaking CHOCK FULL of choices and they come about constantly. To think that what Mr. Jenner is doing isn't a choice is to ignore the blatantly obvious.
    It is his choice to live his life on the outside how he feels on the inside. It's not his choice that he is female inside. It is your choice to judge him for how he lives his life.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,251 Senior Member
    Bottom line is I don't care how Bruce Jenner lives his life. He has never sought press but has responded to press enquiries. I think he's done everything conservatively. I don't know if he had his junk removed, and don't care. He had his Adam's apple shaved (I read) but not so far as I know had any other stuff removed or replaced. He's 65 years old and not likely to drive guys wild with his looks and so far as I know, is not gay. So at the end, who cares? If he'd been Bruce Smith, it wouldn't have been news.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 23,968 Senior Member
    Me either, just so he doesn't move to the Philippines and hit on Marines.
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,460 Senior Member
    It is his choice to live his life on the outside how he feels on the inside. It's not his choice that he is female inside. It is your choice to judge him for how he lives his life.


    He said, with just a tinge of 'holier than thou' in his tone...:roll:

    I disagreed with your asinine assertion that people don't commit suicide over choices they've made. Are you going to answer that, or just continue judging me while accusing me of being judgmental?

    BTW, since you obviously haven't read my previous post, you missed the part where I gave Mr. Jenner props for doing what he feels is right. I may think he's weird, but he's allowed, as am I.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 23,968 Senior Member
    coolgunguy wrote: »
    He said, with just a tinge of 'holier than thou' in his tone...:roll:

    I disagreed with your asinine assertion that people don't commit suicide over choices they've made.I.

    They do around military bases too often; though sometimes it is over the choices their spouses make.
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,460 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Hs got the right to do what he wants with his nethers, and I've got the right to make fun of him for it. If that makes me an ass hole, then I'm an ass hole. I can deal with that.

    I do want to take the time to come out of the closet though. I openly admit that I'm a lesbian.


    You're just like Bruce Jenner!
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,460 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Bruce is an ass hole too?

    I can't say without being judgmental.:tooth:
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,731 Senior Member
    5635568901811_n_zps1nhnceh1.jpg
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,744 Senior Member
    coolgunguy wrote: »
    I don't care how common it is or isn't, but to say that 'it's not a choice' is disingenuous. You may not 'choose' how you feel about your gender, but the choice to transition is just that...a choice. As for 'not choosing to commit suicide over a choice you've made'...this statement is foolish as well as inaccurate. People kill themselves for all sorts of reasons, quite often over choices they've made.

    I fully expected you to take the role of 'accepting' these choices, but I figured, of all of us, you would at least defend your position more artfully. This is disappointing.

    Can't always be artful. My point was the high rate of suicide among TG people (relative to cis hetero people), especially young ones, is evidence in my opinion that how these people feel inside is not a choice. If it was it would be an easily reversible one, and I find it hard to believe someone would stick to it if it was causing them enough pain and turmoil that they think suicide is the way out. Seems like changing your mind would be much easier than trying to kill youself.

    As for transitioning or living on the outside how you feel on the inside, I agree, that is a choice. The question that each individual will have to decide for themselves is if the pain of living a lie is greater than the pain caused by how others treat them for being different. We also have a choice in how we treat them, both as individuals, and as a society.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,429 Senior Member
    Suicide is the ultimate manifestation of narcissistic selfishness. It's also a permanent solution to a temporary problem, and leaves family and friends to deal with the aftermath. With the possible exception of choosing to end debilitating pain from a terminal illness, it's also the coward's way out. No sympathy here!
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,460 Senior Member
    Okay then, since we're talking opinion, then you're right. And so am I. Of course, we're both also wrong as well.

    Here's some more opinion, and it's a nugget you've used before: correlation is not causation. As Jerm pointed out, it is not only possible, but maybe even likely that there is a higher rate of mental illness among the TG crowd that would account for the higher suicide rate. What causes that illness? Maybe it's the same 'thing' that causes TG folks to decide that they're trapped in the wrong body, or maybe it's actually being trapped in the wrong body, as you assert. There are far too many maybes for folks to decide for sure what the 'cause' is.

    That whole chicken-egg thing can be a real bear, can't it?
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    So TGs are are screwed up ,we can all agree on that, yes?
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,227 Senior Member
    What it boils down to, is that when they get the snip or an addadictomy, it does nothing to change their sex-- they still have male or female DNA after it is done. Since gender (like race) is only a creation of society, the surgery did absolutely nothing to solve that person's problem. The surgery is nothing more than cosmetic, which is accompanied by taking hormones. It did nothing to affect the psychological gender identity issue that has been tormenting that person.
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,744 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    What it boils down to, is that when they get the snip or an addadictomy, it does nothing to change their sex-- they still have male or female DNA after it is done. Since gender (like race) is only a creation of society, the surgery did absolutely nothing to solve that person's problem. The surgery is nothing more than cosmetic, which is accompanied by taking hormones. It did nothing to affect the psychological gender identity issue that has been tormenting that person.

    Just to point out, it may not be just psychological, at least not in all cases. While not a ton of comprehensive research has been done on TG individuals, but there have been some studies that have shown physiological differences as well, specially in terms of brain structure. Human development is a complex thing, we all come from a single cell and along the way from that single cell to fully formed human beings a lot more can happen than xy= 100% male, xx = 100% female.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,227 Senior Member
    No doubt that there is a physiological component-- just as I feel that there is for homosexuality. But surgery doesn't change a person's DNA (that other physiological issue). So the only real thing that can be done is to help someone with the psychological issues. Help them understand that a man wearing dresses, heels, and makeup is perfectly healthy and what they are feeling is merely social pressure. I believe that it is a better/more healthy solution than them getting drastic plastic surgery and taking powerful hormones to fit in a shell that society built for them.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    AC/DC or one permanently? Will they then be Pulsating DC, filtered smooth Rectified Full/Half wave or Swing AC + - ?

    All sounds messed up as Duck Soup to me.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,605 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    No doubt that there is a physiological component-- just as I feel that there is for homosexuality. But surgery doesn't change a person's DNA (that other physiological issue). So the only real thing that can be done is to help someone with the psychological issues. Help them understand that a man wearing dresses, heels, and makeup is perfectly healthy and what they are feeling is merely social pressure. I believe that it is a better/more healthy solution than them getting drastic plastic surgery and taking powerful hormones to fit in a shell that society built for them.
    Exactly. Someone made all this crap up - its meaningless in an absolute sense. Jerm, you are very eloquent.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,605 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    All sounds messed up as Duck Soup to me.

    It pretty much is - but it sure doesn't have to be. I don't pretend to understand all the ramifications of all the different approaches to this situation/problem - as my approach is what works for me, but may not for others - but there seems to be a lot of pain out there over it! Me? I'm just havin' fun.

    I also will compliment the participants of this thread - you guys are really addressing this issue well, with thoughtfulness and respect. I honestly didn't expect this level of understanding - my opinion of this forum's membership, while already high, has gone up substantially! Now that I've bared my soul and said that, I won't overdo it and embarrass everybody!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,460 Senior Member
    I agree Zorba, I came here for the guns, I stayed for the fellowship. As often as I may disagree with Alpha, I feel respect for him and most others here. There's a lot to be said for finding common ground and then moving forward form there.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    I get it all this discussion, I really do. I just think life and the world has enough problems without worrying very much about the small amount of tormented souls who say they are a man in a woman's body or a woman in a mans body.........................life must be very good indeed when we get to scrapping the bottom of the barrel for these type issues to worry about.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,605 Senior Member
    You're one of the good ones there, Chief!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    They say we all have a secret desire to crawl back into the womb and be protected, comforted and nourished when life gets tough............figuratively speaking, not literally, I hope............:tooth:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,605 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Never quite understood the "woman in a man's body" thing. All jokes aside what do you need to be happy? Mutilation of your body and a lifetime of hormones manufactured in a chemical plant that will probably kill you? Why would you be so hot on getting a vagina if you are not interested in men? You can do anything else you want and keep your body as issued. Dress, check. Purse, check. Long hair, check. Earrings, jewelry, painted nails, funky clothes, sexy undies? Check, check, check, check and check. Have it all, no one cares... I'm very tolerant of what anyone wants to do to themselves as long as, it does't cost ME money, and it does not affect MY life, but sex-reassignment is weird anyway I look at it from my perspective. BUT I won't judge, to each their own :beer:
    Ya forgot Belly Dancing! :tooth:

    But seriously, I don't understand the "woman in a man's body" thing either. My pet theory has to do with men being denied beauty - but that's all it is, a pet theory. But as you so wisely say, "to each their own". I'll happily remain a guy, albeit a weird one.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,429 Senior Member
    In most cases in the animal world, the male of the species has the gaudy plumage, the big mane, the other things that stand out (softball there!) and the female is the drab half of the pair. Maybe some of the **** Sapien variety is just jealous that the ladies get to get all decked out, and they want a piece of the pie!
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,744 Senior Member
    zorba wrote: »
    Ya forgot Belly Dancing! :tooth:

    But seriously, I don't understand the "woman in a man's body" thing either. My pet theory has to do with men being denied beauty - but that's all it is, a pet theory. But as you so wisely say, "to each their own". I'll happily remain a guy, albeit a weird one.

    Note, Transgendered people exist in both sexes. It just seems to be a bit easier for FtM trans individuals to pass undetected living as their preferred gender identity. Often they will have a double mastectomy, but fully transitioning is less common.

    For anyone curious, other than Chaz, I'd have a hard time telling any of these guys were born female.

    http://www.oddee.com/item_98038.aspx
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,460 Senior Member
    Note, Transgendered people exist in both sexes. It just seems to be a bit easier for FtM trans individuals to pass undetected living as their preferred gender identity. Often they will have a double mastectomy, but fully transitioning is less common.

    For anyone curious, other than Chaz, I'd have a hard time telling any of these guys were born female.

    http://www.oddee.com/item_98038.aspx


    I don't wonder...Even if Bruce does ALL the transitioning, he's still going to look like a skinny, rawboned dude trying to be a woman.

    You said 'preferred' identity. Just sayin'
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,605 Senior Member
    Note, Transgendered people exist in both sexes. It just seems to be a bit easier for FtM trans individuals to pass undetected living as their preferred gender identity. Often they will have a double mastectomy, but fully transitioning is less common.
    I had an email exchange several years back with a FtM who wanted to be a (male) Belly Dancer. I recall it being an interesting conversation, but don't remember the particulars anymore - don't recall how far s/he'd gone, etc.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • shootbrownelkshootbrownelk Senior Member Posts: 2,025 Senior Member
    This all leads to the burning question....what restroom will Bruce use?
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,865 Senior Member
    This all leads to the burning question....what restroom will Bruce use?
    I don't know about Bruce, but I do know last month a woman lost her membership to Planet Fitness because she complained about a transgender "woman" being in the Female's locker room
    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/mich-woman-loses-gym-membership-transgender-complaint-article-1.2141255

    Edited to add this second link, the video in the first one won't play for me and this video has Plant Fitness' written reply at the end of it
    http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/07/living/feat-planet-fitness-transgender-member/
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


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