Police Misconduct

Diver43Diver43 Senior MemberPosts: 8,664 Senior Member
This came up in a conversation at Lowes last night.

Has anyone wondered how this has come up so often lately?

You can not watch the news or WWW without finding a report of it. However all or atleast the majority of reports are about people of color being assaulted by officers. We all know that is because of the media. But why? We know particularly because it sells and makes money, but would the media taint facts and cause riots in our streets just for a buck? Put on your tinfoil hat for a minute and ask: could our government or certain members of it be settiing up these instances or stirring the pot when one happens? Why? To maybe set things up for a Federal Police Force. To take control of Law Enforcement and the Legal System in America? I am not sure what I believe somedays. There surehave been a lot of instances these last few years, and certain people in Government seem untouchable while others crash and burn. I am not sure I believe it all, but the elderly black gentleman I chatted with while waiting for wifey to pick out her new stove sure did. His thought is that the young generation today is gullible enough to let it happen.
Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
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Replies

  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    I was in Lowe's couple months ago and had some righteous gas I couldn't hold back..........anyway I looked around and found myself all alone on isle #9 ...........

    I tell my cat and Mrs Chief be careful "Smells Like Lowe's In Here" after I break some wind in the house or she says my God open the windows..........."Smells Like Lowe's In Here" :yikes: :yikes:

    Which has absolutely nuthin to do with your thread, thought I'd share, though :tooth: :tooth:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    I have heard the same for calls to get a federal police force after Ferguson like incidents, mostly because they feel state and local police forces have too many discrepancies on how they enforce the law and the actual laws on the books differ from state to state.

    Bad idy, I think. I believe in States Sovereignty. Plenty of federal police and other agencies already in existence. I don't think it will fly and they only need to be called in in special circumstances.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,803 Senior Member
    In any system with 1000's of moving parts there are bound to be failures. The failures are predictable as whole but not at specific times and places. There will be bad arrests, bad shoots, and wrongful prosecutions, corruption, non enforcement. The question is always what is the acceptable failure rate to cost. We get what we pay for and while we might be able to get better, overall it is pretty darn good.

    Those wrongfully prosecuted deserve justice as well as the victims of unsolved crimes that are never given justice. It is a balance, without perfection.

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,106 Senior Member
    First off, I don't think there is any real push for a national police force, and the states wouldn't put up with that mess, except for the NE Coast and the Left Coast.

    As to the bad cops, I only have two thoughts on that subject.
    1. The good cops mostly know who the bad actors are. Time to break the habit of letting the bad ones slide and get them either rooted out, or put in jobs that don't involve interaction with the public. The failure to do so for decades has caused a lot of the 'I hate cops' mess that is snowballing within the last two decades because of instant news and video capable phones.

    2. All cops need to be wearing body cameras, period. This will protect the good cops from false charges by lying scum, and might have a braking effect on the ones that are the bad actors. The good cops will be protected, and the bad ones will get ratted out by the body cam.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,599 Senior Member
    But we NEED a national police force - look at how well it worked in 1930s Germany!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,626 Senior Member
    The only new police force we need is one built around the Congress' Sergeant At Arms - one with the authority to arrest witnesses, obstructing cabinet members and others who deliberately delay or derail the search for truth, justice, and the American way. Sometimes, the Justice Department is too corrupt to do its job, and Congress needs a mechanism to enforce its subpoenas and compel cooperation. Those taken into custody by the Sergeant At Arms would, at the Speaker's discretion, face trial before a Congressional committee, and if convicted, be remanded to a federal prison. The current process of holding someone in 'contempt of Congress' just duzzint cut it - they need more and sharper teeth.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Right on to responses so far. States have their own set of laws for a reason and what is good for one wouldn't necessarily be good for the bordering state or one a 1000 miles away.

    As much as a minefield to navigate it seems at times now, it is much better like it is.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    First off, I don't think there is any real push for a national police force, and the states wouldn't put up with that mess, except for the NE Coast and the Left Coast.

    As to the bad cops, I only have two thoughts on that subject.
    1. The good cops mostly know who the bad actors are. Time to break the habit of letting the bad ones slide and get them either rooted out, or put in jobs that don't involve interaction with the public. The failure to do so for decades has caused a lot of the 'I hate cops' mess that is snowballing within the last two decades because of instant news and video capable phones.

    2. All cops need to be wearing body cameras, period. This will protect the good cops from false charges by lying scum, and might have a braking effect on the ones that are the bad actors. The good cops will be protected, and the bad ones will get ratted out by the body cam.

    And for the logistical nightmare that is 24/7 body camera usage, the people can foot the multi-miliion dollar tab for that. Enjoy.

    We need body cams on DMV workers, IRS employees, code enforcement officers, firefighters and TSA employees too.

    God I can't wait to see tax hikes to pay for it all.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,694 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    2. All cops need to be wearing body cameras, period. This will protect the good cops from false charges by lying scum, and might have a braking effect on the ones that are the bad actors.


    While I agree with you, one thing that's a little perplexing is that quite a few cops get busted by their own dashcams. They know the thing is there but it doesn't seem to always deter them from inappropriate behavior. Maybe misconduct would be even worse if the dashcams weren't there?
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,660 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »

    We need body cams on DMV workers, IRS employees, code enforcement officers, firefighters and TSA employees too.

    They are not the ones shooting or beating people.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,694 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    And for the logistical nightmare that is 24/7 body camera usage, the people can foot the multi-miliion dollar tab for that. Enjoy.

    We need body cams on DMV workers, IRS employees, code enforcement officers, firefighters and TSA employees too.

    God I can't wait to see tax hikes to pay for it all.


    The police in my city have body cams and my taxes didn't go up one bit. I go to an occasional city council meeting and the police chief and county sheriff haven't voiced any issues with logistics and they only asked for a few thousand more in their budgets for the cameras. The footage from the cameras only matters if something contraversial happens and they work like any other security camera where only so much is stored and then recorded over. Why would you have any issue about your activities being recorded?
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    Fisheadgib wrote: »
    The police in my city have body cams and my taxes didn't go up one bit. I go to an occasional city council meeting and the police chief and county sheriff haven't voiced any issues with logistics and they only asked for a few thousand more in their budgets for the cameras. The footage from the cameras only matters if something contraversial happens and they work like any other security camera where only so much is stored and then recorded over. Why would you have any issue about your activities being recorded?

    It's interesting you somehow correlate my disdain for the logistics (which is absolutely more than a few thousand dollars) with the accusation that I don't want my activities recorded.

    My department is looking into these damn things...

    120 road officers multiplied by about $300 per camera unit is $36,000 all by itself. What about NYPD? 30,000+ officers...
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    Buford wrote: »
    They are not the ones shooting or beating people.

    What an ignorant response.

    So you are for accountability so long as it pertains to the narrative you've bought into?

    DMV workers are paid by taxes... I say if they take 1 minute too long for lunch they need to be suspended.

    TSA need some serious body cameras. They get in trouble/accused all the time for groping people or making off-color remarks to people.

    It's so nice being me...I get to go to work tomorrow and just randomly beat people. I think I'll start with a few old people first. :roll:
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,694 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    What an ignorant response.

    So you are for accountability so long as it pertains to the narrative you've bought into?


    The only ignorant response I see was generated by you. You apparently think the people on this forum are ignorant lemmings manipulated by the media and are "unaware" of how the real world works by the perspective of the superior law enforcement community. The accountability has nothing to do with where the paycheck is generated but with the power that the position holds.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • JeeperJeeper Senior Member Posts: 2,952 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    One good riot would pay for a lot of body cams...

    While I approve of the idea of body cams (we have cameras in almost every useful part of our jail facilities), here in "well armed Sunny Florida" one good riot would generate a lot of bodies.... which is why you don't see that sort of thing happening in places like Florida, Texas, Tennessee, and instead, only in liberal bastions like New Orleans, Baltimore, Chicago, etc.

    Don't take away the people's power to defend themselves and most of these sorts of problems go away with NO additional cost to the taxpayers.

    Luis
    Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
  • Fat BillyFat Billy Senior Member Posts: 1,813 Senior Member
    National police force to cure misconduct? That would be as secure as the Secret Service wouldn't it? :uhm: Later,
    Fat Billy

    Recoil is how you know primer ignition is complete.
  • shootbrownelkshootbrownelk Senior Member Posts: 2,025 Senior Member
    Over-the-Hillary just spoke to a group yesterday and said that body cameras should be used by all law enforcement, to promote more "Transparency". If that's such a great Idea, let's hang one on her first, and all elected officials while we're at it.
    Too bad she didn't have a body cam on her pantsuit from the time she was sworn in as Secretary of State until right now, that would be some interesting footage to be sure. Permission granted to delete any footage of her and slick-willie bumping uglies!
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 7,041 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    We need body cams on DMV workers, IRS employees, code enforcement officers, firefighters and TSA employees too.

    You forgot congressmen.

    You know the old saying that "If you like sausage and respect the law, then you shouldn't watch either being made" ? I believe much the same can be said of law enforcement. Pretty much all human interaction is comprised of one side of a conversation either convincing or compelling the other side to do what they want, and that's law enforcement in a nutshell. It can run the gamut from a kind word to a not-so-kind word to fists, sticks, and guns. It all depends on degrees and it often isn't pretty. While body cameras may have their pluses, the real danger is that not everyone who might be shown the resulting video gets that. Anybody allowed on the review board for those recordings needs to understand the fact that preservation of the public good sometimes requires that people be yelled at profanely, punched in the face, or shot. The problem with public release is that (1.) any hothead with an axe to grind will make of it what he will make of it - logic be damned; and (2.) you can pretty much count on the media to only show the "juicy bits". Any review of these tapes needs to start with the question "What initiated the interaction of this supposedly wronged person with a cop to begin with?" Hey wow! It's usually that person committing some form of crime! Endlessly nitpicking the degree to which a cop chooses to deal with that is possibly Monday-morning quarterbacking society would be better off without. No, we don't want thugs for cops, but we don't want our cops constantly second-guessing themselves while they try to do what can be a very dangerous job.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • Dr. dbDr. db Senior Member Posts: 1,541 Senior Member
    I don't like the tendency to say it's a department problem when it's an officer problem at worst.
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,694 Senior Member
    Bodycams on officers would protect the officers as well. Ferguson would have been a non event if the officer had a bodycam showing that Brown was charging him and trying to get his gun. Bodycams would protect the officers from false accusations and save the departments and taxpayers enough money in legal activity to cover the cost of the cameras.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    Fisheadgib wrote: »
    The only ignorant response I see was generated by you. You apparently think the people on this forum are ignorant lemmings manipulated by the media and are "unaware" of how the real world works by the perspective of the superior law enforcement community. The accountability has nothing to do with where the paycheck is generated but with the power that the position holds.

    I never said anyone here is an ignorant lemming, but I will point out isolated comments of ignorance when I believe I see it.

    And yes, if you aren't a LEO on the street then you don't know how the world we deal with works. What you see on television isn't even one-quarter of what we have to deal with while being blindfolded and hand-tied by the politics of the upper echelon.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    Fisheadgib wrote: »
    Bodycams on officers would protect the officers as well. Ferguson would have been a non event if the officer had a bodycam showing that Brown was charging him and trying to get his gun. Bodycams would protect the officers from false accusations and save the departments and taxpayers enough money in legal activity to cover the cost of the cameras.

    Wrong.

    Ferguson, MO would have been a non issue if the bias media and race baiters had stayed out of the incident. Reporting opinion as fact and manipulating the incident to fit a narrative.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Life as a Fuzz must nor be a whole lotta fun these days, fer sure.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 23,967 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    Wrong.

    Ferguson, MO would have been a non issue if the bias media and race baiters had stayed out of the incident. Reporting opinion as fact and manipulating the incident to fit a narrative.
    That is the problem with these issues, riot, then find out the facts.
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,694 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    Wrong.

    Ferguson, MO would have been a non issue if the bias media and race baiters had stayed out of the incident. Reporting opinion as fact and manipulating the incident to fit a narrative.


    If there would have been any real evidence, (like bodycam footage) the media and race baiters wouldn't have been able to make up what they wanted. They wouldn't have wasted their time if there had been any real evidence. Between all the theft, and property damage, and law enforcement activity, and investigations, how much do you think the Ferguson incident cost in it's entirety? Enough to pay for bodycams for every cop in Missouri?
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,147 Senior Member
    I'm happy to have retired in 1990, before the shiite really hit the fan. My memories of the 60's are similar to today's problems, but I have mixed feelings about body-cams.
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,106 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    And for the logistical nightmare that is 24/7 body camera usage, the people can foot the multi-miliion dollar tab for that. Enjoy.

    We need body cams on DMV workers, IRS employees, code enforcement officers, firefighters and TSA employees too.

    God I can't wait to see tax hikes to pay for it all.

    If you ain't doing nothing wrong, then you've got nothing to hide. Right?

    How about using all that ill gotten gains from civil asset forfeitures to by body cams instead of buying $$$$$ sports cars, hiring clowns (GA), buying speed boats (GA), and other frivolous garbage.

    Or how about a really original idea. Have an old fashioned 'blanket party' for the effing bad actors in your ranks every time they do stupid stuff like tuning up a suspect, beat the hell out of people unnecessarily, and generally sling cow excrement in all your faces with their boorish bully boy crap. The silence and non action by the 'good cops' when bad cops act out is TACIT APPROVAL of those actions. In case you haven't been paying attention, you are reaping what you've let the bad cops sow. Don't want body cams; fine. Deal with the growing hatred you let grow, and fertilize, by not dealing with the problems that your own have smeared you with their actions. I don't give a flying fornication at a rolling toroidal breakfast pastry.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,327 Senior Member
    I rarely post in political threads here, especially LE stuff, but here it goes.... :jester:
    tennmike wrote: »
    If you ain't doing nothing wrong, then you've got nothing to hide. Right? True, to an extent. But what you consider wrong and what I consider wrong and what Jason considers wrong and what a rioter in Baltimore considers wrong are all going to be different. And when a small segment of video is shown, not giving the entire story, who decides what's right or wrong?

    How about using all that ill gotten gains from civil asset forfeitures to by body cams instead of buying $$$$$ sports cars, hiring clowns (GA), buying speed boats (GA), and other frivolous garbage. 'Cause civil asset forfeiture happens nationwide, so every LE agency must have that money to sepend on cameras?

    Or how about a really original idea. Have an old fashioned 'blanket party' for the effing bad actors in your ranks every time they do stupid stuff like tuning up a suspect, beat the hell out of people unnecessarily, and generally sling cow excrement in all your faces with their boorish bully boy crap. The silence and non action by the 'good cops' when bad cops act out is TACIT APPROVAL of those actions. In case you haven't been paying attention, you are reaping what you've let the bad cops sow. Don't want body cams; fine. Deal with the growing hatred you let grow, and fertilize, by not dealing with the problems that your own have smeared you with their actions. I don't give a flying fornication at a rolling toroidal breakfast pastry. I'd referr to Bigslug's post above on this as well as my previous statement, every individual has a different opion of what is acceptable and what is not. Not much more I can add, except that there are bad cops out there everywhere and yes, they do need to be dealt with and removed. But I also know this first hand, LE unions play a big part in "bad cops" remaining employeed......

    Also, as for logistics of body cameras:

    Policies have to be written before they can be used. Somebody has to be paid to write said policies and, sometimes, attorneys have to be paid to review said policies. That's not free.

    Training has to be given before the cameras can be used. Somebody has to be paid to create the training, give the training and then all the officers have to be paid to recieve the training. That's not free.

    Where do you store all the video data? How long do you keep it? Data storage equipment has to be purchased and IT people have to be paid to install it and maintain it. I'm sure most of yall know how much storage space video can take up. Do we have 200 officers download thier entire shift's worth of video after every shift, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week? Say we're gonna keep video of 3 years. That's a crapload of data to be stored. Or do we only keep the important parts of the videos? Who gets to decide that and work through all the details of sorting it out and storing what is deemed to be necessary? And somebody has to be able to retrieve a video 2 years from now when a previous arrest finally gets out of jail and decides to sue me.

    Just throwing some things out there. And, FWIW, I am a big proponent of cameras in general. There's just a lot to consider when implementing them. A lot of people think you just buy $300 cameras, put them on and go to work as usual. That is not the case. I started playing with body cameras on my own quite a few years ago, buying them with my own money and experimenting with them.....
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    So if they put body cameras on K-9 police dogs will they see them licking their butts and balls?
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,694 Senior Member
    Jay wrote: »
    I rarely post in political threads here, especially LE stuff, but here it goes.... :jester:



    Also, as for logistics of body cameras:

    Policies have to be written before they can be used. Somebody has to be paid to write said policies and, sometimes, attorneys have to be paid to review said policies. That's not free.

    Training has to be given before the cameras can be used. Somebody has to be paid to create the training, give the training and then all the officers have to be paid to recieve the training. That's not free.

    Where do you store all the video data? How long do you keep it? Data storage equipment has to be purchased and IT people have to be paid to install it and maintain it. I'm sure most of yall know how much storage space video can take up. Do we have 200 officers download thier entire shift's worth of video after every shift, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week? Say we're gonna keep video of 3 years. That's a crapload of data to be stored. Or do we only keep the important parts of the videos? Who gets to decide that and work through all the details of sorting it out and storing what is deemed to be necessary? And somebody has to be able to retrieve a video 2 years from now when a previous arrest finally gets out of jail and decides to sue me.

    Just throwing some things out there. And, FWIW, I am a big proponent of cameras in general. There's just a lot to consider when implementing them. A lot of people think you just buy $300 cameras, put them on and go to work as usual. That is not the case. I started playing with body cameras on my own quite a few years ago, buying them with my own money and experimenting with them.....


    Dashcams were eased into use gradually and without much fanfare to the point where almost all departments have at least some if not all of their cruisers equiped with them. There was no big outcry about the costs and logistics with those and I don't see where adding another device is any more complicated. I think the issue is more with officers objecting to the use of bodycams.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
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